Ken Long wrote:
Well....

Does she have the look that you want?  If so, then why not go with the TFP? 
After all, I'd rather have the model asking for and getting TFP's to gain experience then end up the topic of the other thousand threads of "Model with no experience shoots for pay only"

I'd agree .. if she has the look you are wanting...why not?

Click Hamilton wrote:
Why does any of this matter? It sounds like you are in a multi-sided sided conversation with yourself. While the subject may be interesting to you, it's irrelevant if you plan to restructure the rest of the world by your thought process.

Resources and opportunities are everywhere around us. It's our job as photographers and artists to reach out and make something beautiful out of anything around us.

Everyone is on their own learning curve. Nobody is the arbitrar of what anyone should or should not be doing, nor should we try to set standards for what others should do based on our own level of work.

Compared to people who are far better than we are ourselves, we can say we are all useless and lost.

On the other hand, we can also jump in with both feet, have fun and learn regardless of where we think we are on some scale of greatness.

Trying to profile expectations relative to TFP/TFCD/TFBJ etc, is like trying to evaluate a painting that has not been started yet by where we buy our pre-stretched canvas.

Shoot more pictures. Everyone has a beautiful side :-)

What Click said.


Plus, I like that little TFBJ quip (though regrettably, I'm yet to get such an offer)...

Click Hamilton wrote:
Why does any of this matter? It sounds like you are in a multi-sided sided conversation with yourself. While the subject may be interesting to you, it's irrelevant if you plan to restructure the rest of the world by your thought process.

Resources and opportunities are everywhere around us. It's our job as photographers and artists to reach out and make something beautiful out of anything around us.

Everyone is on their own learning curve. Nobody is the arbitrar of what anyone should or should not be doing, nor should we try to set standards for what others should do based on our own level of work.

Compared to people who are far better than we are ourselves, we can say we are all useless and lost.

On the other hand, we can also jump in with both feet, have fun and learn regardless of where we think we are on some scale of greatness.

Trying to profile expectations relative to TFP/TFCD/TFBJ etc, is like trying to evaluate a painting that has not been started yet by where we buy our pre-stretched canvas.

Shoot more pictures. Everyone has a beautiful side :-)

I gotta sign up for your speaking seminars . . .

ravens laughter wrote:
well...
the online community has changed a lot of things... it seems there are two communities living inside the industry; one grounded and rooted in the shoot what sells, and shoot what pays commercial conscript (why else work unless you're going to be paid?). The other is this socialist trade.. you scratch my back I'll scratch yours... where there is almost never any money exchanging hands. The two really don't merge, don't blend... and once you are a part of one of those communities... you stay there.

The model seems to be part of the "why would I ever pay a photographer" crowd. There are models who think that just any photographer will do... and so they have no compunction about asking for tfp... because if you don't say yes, they think the next one will.

Photographers do the same thing though...

so really it all matters on what community you want to be part of. Are you driven by the money or driven by the art? (not that you can't be driven by both... but that is the most simple I can break it down this early for me).

As for me... I'll give a model one shot; if he/she proves themselves I'll shoot them any time they want because I enjoy the interaction. If a model is horrid or flakes, well good luck finding someone else who does my type of work. (smile)

I'm rambling, sorry.

I'm gonna ramble as well...

I can see how the testing method works for people in the industry.   And I can see how people who are still developing, use TFP.

I never got into photography to be in the industry.  As a kid I fell in love with images.  First, moving ones, then stills.  My skills set is actually in ceramics.  3-d.  Sculpture.  Drawing and painting second.  Photography scared me because it seemed(s) so technical.  Every time I came in contact with a photographer (high school, college, post college) they all seemed like geeky nerds spouting off differential equations or something....

In doing sculpture (particularly body casting) and drawing/painting I'd use models.  It wasn't such a big deal.  Put an ad up in the paper or at colleges, etc, offer $15 hr or trade.   Trading art in the ceramics world doesn't have the stigma it does in the photography world.  Things are a great deal more casual.   If someone looked at a finshed bodycast I did and said, "Kim, that's a nice body up there, how did you pay the model?"   And I said, "Well Fred, the model wanted a copy of one of the finshed works for herself, that's her payment."  The collector or fellow artist wouldn't look at me and sneer, "LAMER, only amateur sculptors TRADE for body casts!!!!!"

I just kinda wish people on MM would just chill a bit more.   Concentrate more on being the best you can be, learning your craft, and whether you are a beginner or old pro, unleashing the beauty or horror or whatever you see in your mind.

Chip Morton wrote:
I gotta sign up for your speaking seminars . . .

Chip, aren't you the same guy who wants to raid my refrigerator full of ice cold Becks beer?

Click Hamilton, ready for a beer meeting ;-)

stan wigmore photograph wrote:
it's your call to make ,but tfp,test shooting what ever you call it is not free to either party ,........
   My guess is that models/photographers who cann't afford to pay and that use tfp doesn't take away anyone's income  but actualy increase the number of those that will someday be interested enough to pay up when they are experienced  enough to see why it is in their best interests.The tfp shooters,the amatuers who just like shooting pretty girls,the group shooters and all the model wannabe beginners( and there is nothing wrong with any of them} are just building interest in a customer base cost free  for those at the top of the food chain.

WONDERFULLY said....

Also to add, I am signed up here in MM as both a model and photographer. In both realms, my interests in doing a shoot vary. Sometimes it's to improve/update my port, other times, it's to try out a new "look", and then there's times that I simply would like to be a part of creating interesting artistic images.

On my modeling port, I've done many TFCD shoots and 1 paid shoot and 1 upcoming paid shoot (where I was/will be paid).  The OP makes the assumption that it is the model seeking out the photographers, but often the photographer seeks out the model.   I'd estimate that 80% of the shoots I've done thus far were with the photogs writing to me asking me if I'd want to shoot. The other 20% were me contacting the photogs because I just so loved their work and wanted to be a part of the images they create.

Rossi Photography wrote:
I've read the many viewpoints on TFP/TFCD shoots. I don't have a high opinion of them, myself. I've always been particular about doing them, which resulted in me only having done a few.

I have some free time for the time being, I have a few ideas/shoots I want to do and have open some of my time up to do/offer some TFP -- with models of the right look.

I've had a few come to me this week asking if I'd shoot them. One of them, I've noticed has just had a couple shoots done (TFP). Doing a little research on the model, it appears that they hop from photographer to photographer trying to get as many TFP shoots as they can get.

Now, I understand some models simply can't afford some of our rates. So, having said that, If I'm going to give a model a free shoot, I'd much rather give it to someone to update her/his portfolio, who actually NEEDS it but can't afford it (as long as the model has a look I like). Not to someone who just runs around grabbing at any TFP shoot they can get. Ya' know what I'm sayin'...?

So, I'm thinking I'm going to tell the model no. What'd you think?

thats interesting, if you feel you need to say no, say it. Ill test for free and I dont expect to be paid if I target a model for a special project of mine but if its just a matter of wanting a LeDeux Art image in her port, thats gonna cost her

Caroline A Martin wrote:
The OP makes the assumption that it is the model seeking out the photographers, but often the photographer seeks out the model.

It's no assumption. I can only relate to how it is in my city/state, how it is for me. The frustration of the models who do this in the Detroit area is shared by many working photogs in this area.

Hadyn Lassiter wrote:
...to each their own and its all good,right?

Yep, you're right again, Hadyn... To each their own.

We all have our reasons for doing things and not doing things. I think, if we were all the same, we'd be pretty freakin' boring. Wouldn't we?