Getzi wrote:
I have lots of sleazy photographer stories, but most photographers are that way anyways and I accept it. I don't like it when the photographer wants to be in the photos...that's weird. Especially when you are totally nude...but I'm easy to work with so I figure "in the name of art"... BRING IT!

I have lots of idiotic, conceited, irresponsible model stories...but most models are that way anyways and I accept it.

...actually that's not true...I just wanted you to hear how utterly dispicable you sound.  maybe you're only getting the kind of photographers you deserve.

*crosses another model off his list*

Nala Mills wrote:
You're right. There was a lack of communication on our part and lack of maturity on mine. I should have done more research and paid closer attention to the bad signs that were given. But situations like this are always happening and will continue to happen. It could be by mistake or maybe on purpose. Models would have to wise up and share stories so that we may learn from them. Is there anything wrong with that?

There is nothing wrong with that at all. I encourage it.
This thread, however, didn't exactly turn into a growing experience for some involved, while for some it did.

I spoke with the OP personally and we see eye to eye with the end but disagreed with the means to get to that end
I, along with others here, are defending photographers (as a whole) and the profession from remarks which could hurt them because many of us know it’s not always what is said, it’s how it’s said.

A quote from my discussion with the OP, he stated, “Perception is a powerful thing and whether the perception is true or not makes no difference - it must be addressed.”
He was of course speaking about the perception of sleazy photographers in the industry and I replied quoting that line and spoke of how photographers will be perceived in a negative light if sleazy photographers are more discussed than dealt with (this inflates the number making it seem like an epidemic, as well as turning discussions into “he said - she said” arguments which discredit models and photographers alike and damaging the credibility of all involved parties).
People discuss the problem more than take the actions necessary to correct it. This problem has had more rumors than facts in it for many years and I would much prefer if people came up with real, viable, business oriented solutions to the problem and implemented them rather than complain over them.

Also, to your prior post of asking where all the models are I will say this, the people who have been truly hurt by such a problem will not come forward here. If they are too traumatized to go to the proper authorities then what makes you think their going to tell their life stories on an internet forum...

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Melvin Moten Jr wrote:
I have lots of idiotic, conceited, irresponsible model stories...but most models are that way anyways and I accept it.

...actually that's not true...I just wanted you to hear how utterly dispicable you sound.  maybe you're only getting the kind of photographers you deserve.

*crosses another model off his list*

I thought I was being blunt earlier. lol

I still like you though.
:-)

Yuriy wrote:
There is nothing wrong with that at all. I encourage it.
This thread, however, didn't exactly turn into a growing experience for some involved, while for some it did.


Also, to your prior post of asking where all the models are I will say this, the people who have been truly hurt by such a problem will not come forward here. If they are too traumatized to go to the proper authorities then what makes you think their going to tell their life stories on an internet forum...

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I understand what you're saying. Generalizing anyone or anything into something negative isn't right at all especailly when there are reputations at stake. There isn't anything wrong with posting an opinion. However, the issue is that if one posts an opinion that other's dislike, they will get flamed. I've seen it way too many times. The point of the forum was too tell of certain experiences and for the first three pages I've rarely seen that. I don't think that the OP wanted to ask people to call photographers out. Models that have experienced such things have the choice to discuss it or not. And placing it on here in a tasteful manner would not get their accounts deactivated. We can use these things as lessons learned and things to be aware of. If it's too traumatic to share then don't.

Marko Cecic-Karuzic wrote:
I wonder if cutting off my scrotum and giving away my cameras will appease you all... Sheesh.

Well, the first would make for dramatic performance art.

The second, I'd take your cameras.


But no, none of it would stop the kvetching.

KM von Seidl wrote:
Okay, so NOW you're admitting that lots of this "den of wolves" slime really has nothing to do with photographers in the industry,just guys who have a camera?  COME ON NOW!

If you read where I used that metaphor, it was in response to a question about why models weren't posting their stories. Some models in this thread stated it's because they'll get hounded/criticized by photogs (which they have), so the metaphor seems appropriate.

KM von Seidl wrote:
Your post is akin to going onto a professional race car driver forum and posting a thread called "Post your rampant drunk driving Race car driver stories" and include every story from someone who was in a car driving drunk while speeding or racing.

At least one of the photogs in my post has a studio, is on this forum, and finds models on MS and CL. I would call him a photog.

KM von Seidl wrote:
And why are you so afraid to turn this into a constructive thread?

There's too much emotion about this topic, so nothing constructive will happen until everyone cools off. When emotion runs this high, even constructive ideas will be misinterpreted. 

KM von Seidl wrote:
But it's BS to try and lump assaults into the same category of models upset because the shoot didn't go their way or some dude tried to get more for his money or the photographer watermarked his prints or whatever misunderstanding that doesn't rise to the level of bodily harm is.

Jeez.

This is what I meant by saying too much misinterpretation or even fabrication. I never said assault, never implied it, and in fact believe assaults are very rare.

For example, there's another simple post that might make models feel much safer about their physical security. But it won't work if the photogs immediately jump in. Let me try and see what happens.

Rue 99 wrote:
If you read where I used that metaphor, it was in response to a question about why models weren't posting their stories. Some models in this thread stated it's because they'll get hounded/criticized by photogs (which they have), so the metaphor seems appropriate.
For example, there's another simple post that might make models feel much safer about their physical security. But it won't work if the photogs immediately jump in. Let me try and see what happens.

So why not post in the Models area?

Rue 99 wrote:
This is what I meant by saying too much misinterpretation or even fabrication. I never said assault, never implied it, and in fact believe assaults are very rare.

And you don't see in ANY way how posting a thread with this sort of inflmmatory title won't be construed as leaning towards that, with talk of models being groped, coerced, treated innapropriately, etc?
*headshake*

SLE Photography wrote:
So why not post in the Models area?

I just tried, didn't work. I'll try on a different computer.

Rue 99 wrote:
And you don't see in ANY way how posting a thread with this sort of inflmmatory title won't be construed as leaning towards that, with talk of models being groped, coerced, treated innapropriately, etc?
*headshake*

Correct. When someone says sleazy car salesman, I do not equate that with a car salesman who assaults others.

Marko Cecic-Karuzic wrote:
I wonder if cutting off my scrotum and giving away my cameras will appease you all... Sheesh.

But then what would keep your balls from unraveling?

Lady_Death wrote:
Been modeling 17 years some of the best reknowned photogs were some kind of pervert... just make them laugh a lot... act like a retard or show them your taser then no horror story

Exactly!

JAY carreon
PHOTOGRAPHER

Yuriy wrote:

First an explanation than something to consider.
I am not saying to keep things hidden. Going to the proper authorities is one thing. But what happens between your attorneys and the press is generates is just that. Spreading things on the internet opens you to many liabilities because most models don’t have the tact to post it in a professional manner.
They start to make assumptions and begin to slander photographers. Sometimes they deserve it, and sometimes they do not.

Now the consideration.
Many months ago I spoke to a certain model in private because of what she posted regarding a certain photographer. Due to a miscommunication she believed he acted inappropriately while he in fact did not. She went [online] with a not so cool head and slandered his name in several internet forums; she even started a thread on how photographers are assholes.
What would you do in such a situation?

Some here would agree with the model, some with the photographer. Me? I think the model should have immediately brought up the problem with the photographer (diffuse the situation, prevent miscommunication, etc.). If you think that I have an “ignorance is bliss” attitude, then you are quite mistaken.
But irrationality and a tongue that speaks before having the time to think an action through thoroughly will get you into shit real quick.

That's a very good point, We had been working with one model for almost a year, off and one. We did a great deal of commercial work for her. She was 22 or 23 and a real great, sweetheart.

One day her little sister (18) came with her and of course wanted to have her 'pictures taken' too. Big sister said it was ok, so during wardrobe changes, I shoot little sister.

I was shooting for a magazine bridal issue the next day. I asked little sister if she was interested in being in the shot with three other models (non-nude, obviously).  She was excited (my mistake was not asking big sister to do the shot).  Some the next day of the shoot, little sister stomps onto the set, into a total look-at-me Diva 'tude, and said she refused to shoot with one of the other models who she said was ugly.  I took little sister outside and explained how things were going to work and if she didn't like it, I'd call her a cab and she could go home.  She crossed her arms and said I was an asshole.  I got up, called her cab, took her kit out front of the studio, let it by the curb, escorted her to the front of the studio, closed the door, locked it, and shot the best I could with the three remaining models.

She was pissed to the max. For weeks we kept getting hate emails. She was telling anyone and everyone that I wanted her to have sex with the other models (and many other things - her story changed or got more dramatic overtime).  Several photographers emailed or called me and told me what she was saying.  She was truly a lose canon. Long-story short. Our attorney wrote her a letter. She shut up. She is now off the model radar screen and doing God knows what. And big sister no longer shoots with us because she believes little sister.

One lives and learns. /tim

Melvin Moten Jr wrote:

I'm not making a baseless insisnuation about anyone -- you did that, remember, Mr. "den of wolves"?  Since such a ridiculous, fearmongering, cliche could not possibly apply to myself or any photographer i know, I can only assume you were referring to yourself.  If "so many models" you know and work with feel they need escorts [a sentiment none of the people I work with seem to share], then maybe the models you work with do need one -- which is still your problem [and your models], not mine...Good luck with it.

KM von Seidl wrote:
I know.  He's gone from concern, to white knight, to hysterical white knight in less than 2 pages.  I'm afraid to see what will happen on page 4.   Maybe we need a thread escort to protect everyone from the den of wolves on the thread....

Sometimes the sheep are being eaten by the one who cries "Wolf!" the loudest . . .

JAY carreon
PHOTOGRAPHER

oldguysrule wrote:
how about some sleezy photog stories instead of dumb-as-a-shoe model stories?

and nope it is NOT the job of other photographers to play white knight and perpetuate the negative image photographers are acquiring. if you want to do something, go after the photographers directly, and encourage the models reporting to you to call the law.

arianna77 wrote:
You know, I'm sure you were new at what you were doing once too.  The fact that I was VERY new at modelling and had been hooked up with this guy through another photographer that I trusted does not mean that my intelligence is any lower than yours.  Knowing what I know now, I never would have even done the shoot, pay or no pay.  Live and learn.  However, the undeniable fact is that he WAS skeevy.  At least I had the sense not to be in the studio alone with him. But of course, for this I'll get flamed, because escorts are bad, and models should never bring them.

Well, having an escort there with you, didn't help in avoiding to do some silliness like making this GWC put you over his shoulder. Especially being the first thing he wanted to shoot. That was something the escort should have stepped in to prevent.

Tony Culture Photoz wrote:
...
That was something the escort should have stepped in to prevent.

That is something that the model should prevent.

Star wrote:
....[section deleted to save space]....I do think that photographers use psychology to get people to show more than what was agreed.

It's clear that many, if not all, people use psychology of some sort or another to influence others.  Photographers do it.  Models do it.  And myriads of other folk do it.

Although there is no doubt that some photographers are sleazy, the vast majority are not. 

Models:  Wise pre-shoot activities (e.g., open discussions with photographers, clear evaluations of photographer portfolios, and serious checking of references), along with equally wise during-shoot activities (e.g., sticking to what is contracted or at the very least to your own personal limits and being firm in your responses to inappropriate requests) would go a long way in preventing some of the problems we are hearing about in this thread.

Tony

theda wrote:
I'm afraid my nude body will be pasted onto some chick's head.

I'm afraid my nude elbows will be pasted onto some model's knees.

RichMiamiPhoto wrote:

It's clear that many, if not all, people use psychology of some sort or another to influence others.  Photographers do it.  Models do it.  And myriads of other folk do it.

Although there is no doubt that some photographers are sleazy, the vast majority are not. 

Models:  Wise pre-shoot activities (e.g., open discussions with photographers, clear evaluations of photographer portfolios, and serious checking of references), along with equally wise during-shoot activities (e.g., sticking to what is contracted or at the very least to your own personal limits and being firm in your responses to inappropriate requests) would go a long way in preventing some of the problems we are hearing about in this thread.

Tony

one line does not a post make.... is that really all I posted?

Seems like there was a bunch of other stuff in the post you are quoting, that is like taking part of the constitution outside it's intended means...

like saying the right to bear arms, instead of the right to bear arms in order to form a well armed militia. It was about state rights vs. national rights so that the states would agree to come under one banner. or something like that....

Rue 99 wrote:
Model found by a phtoographer, then photographer takes control of her profiles here and OMP, including email. Then uses subtle intimidation tactics to ensure she keeps shooting with him, and uses the comments about the crappy photos to "prove" she should keep working with him.

Model goes in for a gig with a certain understanding, but is pressured and intimidated to shoot more than she agreed to. Or what's being shot is far more than she realized because she trusts the photog when he says everything's good. 

Models and photogs alike: What's your sleazy photographer story?

I don't have time to read ANOTHER one of these idiotic threads so forgive me if I'm repeating anyone, but WTF? When does common sense ever come into play? If a model doesn't have enough sense to say NO when someone tries to get her to do something she doesn't want to then she sure as hell shouldn't be modeling! And how is it that a photographer can "take control of her profiles here and OMP, including email" unless the model gives him her passwords?

Where is Darwin when you need him?