Bob Randall Photography wrote:

Cleaning is so subtle, when I found you it made me laugh very hard. Now I need to clean.

Alas, hope shines eternal.

Bob Randall Photography wrote:
WE WON, 34 TO 7, YEAH WE BEAT THE lions!

Good job, Bob.  I'm proud of you for winning that game.

Bob Randall Photography wrote:
There are several threads going on at the moment and they reflect an underlying current in people I have never understood. Pride in things... Pride in something you had nothing to do with, WTF is that all about.

Well, I would venture to say that without pride, people would be without motivation to do many things.  It's a desire to be proud of something.  Take away that and a lot of people would give up whatever they are doing.  They want to be proud of this thing or that, or have someone else be proud of what they do or how.


I don't think it's always a bad thing...

Hadyn Lassiter wrote:
I take pride in my daughter, my wife, my work and my mom. I believe you should be proud if you put in a valid effort. I dont think you should allow pride to blind you. Or use it to berate others.
Perhaps if more people had pride in themselves instead of their things many of the social problems we face would not be so dire or pressing.

"Valid effort" being the operative phrase. Perspective is good and in short supply....

I'm watching ANTM cuz my daughter said it was her fav show (and I've never watched it before).  I can't over how much these girls are total divas and I keep thinking "Girl, you just ain't all that." Talk about misplaced pride.

Man... I gotta have a talk with my daughter.

Mayanlee wrote:

"Valid effort" being the operative phrase. Perspective is good and in short supply....

I'm watching ANTM cuz my daughter said it was her fav show (and I've never watched it before).  I can't over how much these girls are total divas and I keep thinking "Girl, you just ain't all that." Talk about misplaced pride.

Man... I gotta have a talk with my daughter.

I hear you, since reality TV came about I have not been able to watch the damn thing. My daughter is from another planet and she just informed me of it. When I say pride in themselves I mean in themselves not in what they are wearing or dating or driving. Pride in something that they have done or helped someone else to achieve. Valid effort is the the easiest thing to take pride in.

Bob Randall Photography wrote:
Pride in things. Things they own such as film cameras or the latest big digital camera, ways of doing someTHING such as...

I think the root of it is that people have to make decisions about how they want to do things. These decisions represent a financial, emotional, and time investment. So, you have to do a fair bit to achieve an internal conviction that you've made the right decision, and that effect is stronger the more important the decision happens to be. This effect takes place everywhere - people's choices of beliefs about religion, what cars are good, art, food, etc, etc.

The place where it all gets sticky is that people seldom seem to realize the fact that a decision that works for person 'A' may not be the right decision for person 'B'. I think it's just because we generalize our own experiences - the path we took after we reached a particular decision is always much clearer (and makes more sense) AFTER we've walked it. It takes a special kind of open-mindedness to always try to approach familiar problems differently. That's a great experiment to play with yourself, by the way: identify a problem and try to solve it 4 different ways. I bet that, by the time you're done, you'll have learned a lot more about the problem than just using the "tried and true."

So, what I think you're seeing is a side-effect of people's knowing what works for them and therefore being puzzled about why anyone would want to try anything different. And it also makes sense, if you think about it for a few moments, why someone would see a person doing things a different way and think "what a retard!" For example, there are some effects I can achieve effortlessly in a darkroom that might take me an hour to get in photoshop. So if I see someone doing all this stuff in photoshop I might think "what a retard! he could do that in seconds in a darkroom!"  Meanwhile, because he's gotten so good with photoshop that he isn't even aware of what he's doing, it's effortless for HIM and he's thinking "what a retard! he's getting his hands covered with chemicals and has to drive 10 miles to his darkroom and wait for paper to dry!"  So, in that example, there is a dialog between 2 ways of doing something. But there are 3, 4, 5, a hundred different ways and all the followers of each different path can look at the others and think "what a retard!"

At this point I've invested about 20 years in learning wet darkroom processes, and 10 in learning photoshop. I'm sure that if a new 3rd option came along ("bio photo holography!") I'd get all curmudgeonly!

mjr.

Marcus J. Ranum wrote:

I think the root of it is that people have to make decisions about how they want to do things. These decisions represent a financial, emotional, and time investment. So, you have to do a fair bit to achieve an internal conviction that you've made the right decision, and that effect is stronger the more important the decision happens to be. This effect takes place everywhere - people's choices of beliefs about religion, what cars are good, art, food, etc, etc.

The place where it all gets sticky is that people seldom seem to realize the fact that a decision that works for person 'A' may not be the right decision for person 'B'. I think it's just because we generalize our own experiences - the path we took after we reached a particular decision is always much clearer (and makes more sense) AFTER we've walked it. It takes a special kind of open-mindedness to always try to approach familiar problems differently. That's a great experiment to play with yourself, by the way: identify a problem and try to solve it 4 different ways. I bet that, by the time you're done, you'll have learned a lot more about the problem than just using the "tried and true."

So, what I think you're seeing is a side-effect of people's knowing what works for them and therefore being puzzled about why anyone would want to try anything different. And it also makes sense, if you think about it for a few moments, why someone would see a person doing things a different way and think "what a retard!" For example, there are some effects I can achieve effortlessly in a darkroom that might take me an hour to get in photoshop. So if I see someone doing all this stuff in photoshop I might think "what a retard! he could do that in seconds in a darkroom!"  Meanwhile, because he's gotten so good with photoshop that he isn't even aware of what he's doing, it's effortless for HIM and he's thinking "what a retard! he's getting his hands covered with chemicals and has to drive 10 miles to his darkroom and wait for paper to dry!"  So, in that example, there is a dialog between 2 ways of doing something. But there are 3, 4, 5, a hundred different ways and all the followers of each different path can look at the others and think "what a retard!"

At this point I've invested about 20 years in learning wet darkroom processes, and 10 in learning photoshop. I'm sure that if a new 3rd option came along ("bio photo holography!") I'd get all curmudgeonly!

mjr.

You are very smart.

Bob Randall Photography wrote:

That's a dumb statement and doesn't even come close to making sense.

Oh it makes sense alright. Pride is something that will make you feel good about yourself or your creations. Bad pride is the feeling of being so proud one has to knock someone else's finished work in order to make theirs seem better.

Anyway that's how it seems here on MM. It's weird being in an environment where the photographers, instead of being constructive towards new photographers, are more critical and can only site the amount of years training and in the business as if they were never beginners. It's the ability of pushing one's self up a level by pushing someone else down.

Am I talking in circles again? I'll stop now, thank you.

Jay Bowman wrote:

Well, I would venture to say that without pride, people would be without motivation to do many things.  It's a desire to be proud of something.  Take away that and a lot of people would give up whatever they are doing.  They want to be proud of this thing or that, or have someone else be proud of what they do or how.


I don't think it's always a bad thing...

you think everyone just does stuff to show off?

wow.

Dredful Jaymz wrote:

... Pride is something that will make you feel good about yourself or your creations. Bad pride is the feeling of being so proud one has to knock someone else's finished work in order to make theirs seem better.....
Am I talking in circles again? I'll stop now, thank you.

PRIDE  that is, doing it to feel superior, is not the same as FULFILMENT doing what you felt was right and getting resuts or being satisfied.
That is what some of them may be trying to say...achievements, make you feel good.

Madonna told me that confidence comes from setting yourself goals and achieving them.
Good advice.
...No need to be an A-hole about it and swell up with PRIDE tho!!!

Anjel Britt wrote:
PRIDE  that is, doing it to feel superior, is not the same as FULFILMENT doing what you felt was right and getting resuts or being satisfied.

I don't want to start an argument about semantics but you're somewhat reinterpreting the meaning of the word "pride." For example, many dictionary definitions include words such as "self respect" "accomplishment" and "honor" as other positive value-words in the definition of "pride."  You appear to be interpreting "pride" as solely a negative - perhaps more like what one might term "arrogance."

These things are deeply personal and open to interpretation, and when people discuss intangibles like "pride" and "arrogance" and "beauty" it's very easy to go astray and fall into semantic heat-death. Then we all wind up arguing what "is" is.

"Reputation is what others know of you. Honor - is what you know about yourself"
    - Lois McMaster Bujold

mjr.

Marcus J. Ranum wrote:
I don't want to start an argument about semantics but you're somewhat reinterpreting the meaning of the word "pride." For example, many dictionary definitions include words such as "self respect" "accomplishment" and "honor" as other positive value-words in the definition of "pride."  You appear to be interpreting "pride" as solely a negative - perhaps more like what one might term "arrogance."

These things are deeply personal and open to interpretation, and when people discuss intangibles like "pride" and "arrogance" and "beauty" it's very easy to go astray and fall into semantic heat-death. Then we all wind up arguing what "is" is.

"Reputation is what others know of you. Honor - is what you know about yourself"
    - Lois McMaster Bujold

mjr.

yeah, true. that's fine!!

i suggest we use the SIN as the negative (the way it's meant to be )
and the other words you added for their true meaning too

i guess in school they used to talk about 'PRIDE in yourself' - in respect to effort
but YES defining terms is essential before discussing them!
(seems 2 me the OP was talking about arrogance and ego pride)

Anjel Britt wrote:
(seems 2 me the OP was talking about arrogance and ego pride)

I agree. I just wanted to clarify, is all.

mjr.

alexwh wrote:
Giclées I love now. The word come from the French so a worldly photographer like you would immediately understand. If you don't, this very serious Canadian will attempt to explain. It simply means spray.

As in "I won't giclée in your mouth"??

mjr.

Marcus J. Ranum wrote:

As in "I won't giclée in your mouth"??

mjr.

Sir, in my garden, Golden Showers is a most beautiful climbing rose.
Alexwh

alexwh wrote:
They were beautiful but I was also impressed by the showmanship which only showed that he was proud of his work and therefore I should be proud of it, too. It also impressed in me a sense of the value of photogravure and particularly of Martin's photogravures.

You touch on an important point. Somehow he was able to convey (perhaps because you are an educated audience?) his sense of the value of his work, and you were able to draw your own conclusions and share in a special moment.

What's interesting is that there are some situations/people that can do that, whereas there are other situations/people that just make you think, "what an a**hole!"  I've had people present me with work that is stunning, but in a context in which they just finished crapping on someone else's head or demonstrating that the beauty of their art was only skin deep. I'm sure many of us have had similar experiences! Youthful enthusiasm is charming, whereas the clueless arrogance of youthful ignorance is not. We've seen our shares of both, I suspect. At this point in my life I look at youthful enthusiasm wistfully and prefer to simply walk away from arrogance - the saying "you don't even know how much you don't know..." comes to mind often when I read many posts on MM and photosig.

This is a factor in all walks of life. One reads about how the aging Ansel Adams - not my favorite photographer, by far, but I hope we can agree a great master and teacher - would open his home to young photographers off the street and offer them advice pitched to the correct level in their learning process. My former iaido teacher told a similar story of his sensei, the "old japanese coot next door" who he badgered into teaching him "a few things about swords" - who turned out to be a former instructor at The Budokan. The man gave lessons, with utter seriousness and respect, to a 14-year-old American boy - lessons for which senior martial artists around the world would have lined up in rain and snow. Did Adams have the right to be proud of his accomplishments? Of course! And the swordmaster? Of course! But guys like that are too busy worrying about what they want to learn next, or teach next, to spare a lot of thought for it. Which is why they are what they are.

I remember back in the rec.photo days of USENET when my buddies and I used to sit through endless flamewars about Fred Picker. Was he a jerk? Or a guru? Arrogant? Or a con-man? A great photographer? Or a great marketer? Personally, I avoided learning enough about him to form an opinion on the assumption that someone who produced such divided views about himself was probably a bit of both jerk and guru.

There are great masters of their crafts who also turn out to be real a**holes. Strangely, though, I think they are rare. Why is it that the masters turn out to be thoughtful, respectful, and interested? My theory is that those are necessary conditions (but not sufficient ones!) to mastery.

I bet if your friend had showed you his photogravures while ranting about the "cheap digital cr*p kids are producing these days..." and patting himself on the back, your impression of his art would have suffered along with your patience, no? Isn't it funny how that works?

mjr.

Dredful Jaymz wrote:

Oh it makes sense alright. Pride is something that will make you feel good about yourself or your creations. Bad pride is the feeling of being so proud one has to knock someone else's finished work in order to make theirs seem better.

Anyway that's how it seems here on MM. It's weird being in an environment where the photographers, instead of being constructive towards new photographers, are more critical and can only site the amount of years training and in the business as if they were never beginners. It's the ability of pushing one's self up a level by pushing someone else down.

Am I talking in circles again? I'll stop now, thank you.

If you bothered to read the OP, you would know that what you just wrote was dumb too. The question had to do with pride in things like your D70 and how it made you feel superior simply because you owned it. A sense of pride that MJR explained very well just before you wrote your unrelated drivel. Sorry, I'm in a bad mood this morning, don't mean to take it out on you, but I guess I did anyway.

Anjel Britt wrote:
Pride is never good, it's even a SIN in Christian doctrin.
Pride is the EGO and not to be bloated...& never good
But self esteem is.
Humility is.
Ability and know-how is! But no need to be PROUD about it.

Hey you, I started this thread, I don't allow any religious BS on my original posts. Take it into off topic where it will thrive and you can pretend you're not boasting about how holy you are. Oh, wait a second. I may be wrong here. False pride in things is what this is all about. My mistake, you stay right where you are so we have a big, bright, easy target.

Bob Randall Photography wrote:
False pride in things is what this is all about. My mistake, you stay right where you are so we have a big, bright, easy target.

maybe pride can be defined as people who think they are better than others , for whatever reason . And it make them feel better about themselves to tell people why they are better . yet , they mask it but pushing it on to others and not accepting the fact that they are exactly the same . they do this because they believe the side that theyre on , is the "OK" side . which makes it ok for them to judge people without looking in the mirror .

Yerkes Photography wrote:

maybe pride can be defined as people who think they are better than others , for whatever reason . And it make them feel better about themselves to tell people why they are better . yet , they mask it but pushing it on to others and not accepting the fact that they are exactly the same . they do this because they believe the side that theyre on , is the "OK" side . which makes it ok for them to judge people without looking in the mirror .

It sounds like you want to say something but are afraid to ruffle feathers. This is the internet. Ruffle away.

Bob Randall Photography wrote:

It sounds like you want to say something but are afraid to ruffle feathers. This is the internet. Ruffle away.

no , i said exactly what i wanted to say ... exactly the way i wanted to say it .

sometimes you have to say things in a non-threating way , so that people dont get defensive before they read it . That way you get thier attention , and the intellegent people will figure it out . Hopefully the one i'm referring to is intellegent enough to understand .

Yerkes Photography wrote:
maybe pride can be defined as people who think they are better than others , for whatever reason .

Nope; that's "a sense of superiority"  or "being a jerk." There's a lesser form which is "smug" - a favorite of the holier-than-thou crowd.

And then there's the special case of "an unwarranted sense of superiority" - we all know and loathe that.

Isn't English a delightfully rich language?

mjr.

Yerkes Photography wrote:

no , i said exactly what i wanted to say ... exactly the way i wanted to say it .

sometimes you have to say things in a non-threating way , so that people dont get defensive before they read it . That way you get thier attention , and the intellegent people will figure it out . Hopefully the one i'm referring to is intellegent enough to understand .

I have a feeling you mean me, and as I've stated many times before, I'm too stupid to get most of the cloistered arcane stuff I read. I'd rather see it in plain English so I know how to respond.

Bob Randall Photography wrote:
If you bothered to read the OP, you would know that what you just wrote was dumb too. The question had to do with pride in things like your D70 and how it made you feel superior simply because you owned it. A sense of pride that MJR explained very well just before you wrote your unrelated drivel. Sorry, I'm in a bad mood this morning, don't mean to take it out on you, but I guess I did anyway.

I guess I should've expanded to say more than just your creations. To be proud of something you didn't create, such as a vehicle, camera, your appearance, camera, wife's boob job, penis length, house, door knob, son's education, Azaleas, the scent of your own feces, stereo, and even the lawn or what-f***ing-ever floats your boat, is fine as well. or even the way you do something. We all know Pride is not a bad thing, until one's ego needs to be pushed along by it. Is that still dumb? That's my view on pride, sorry if it's not lofty and essay like, and hopefully along the lines you want.

Now I'm in a bad mood, too. Thanx, Bob.

Dredful Jaymz wrote:

I guess I should've expanded to say more than just your creations. To be proud of something you didn't create, such as a vehicle, camera, your appearance, camera, wife's boob job, penis length, house, door knob, son's education, Azaleas, the scent of your own feces, stereo, and even the lawn or what-f***ing-ever floats your boat, is fine as well. We all know Pride is not a bad thing, until one's ego needs to be pushed along by it. Is that still dumb? That's my view on pride, sorry if it's not lofty and essay like, and hopefully along the lines you want.

Now I'm in a bad mood. Thanx, Bob.

Not looking for lofty or essay like. The scent of your feces is kinda dumb but understandable and as everyone knows by now, penis length is not a problem for me in terms of pride so much as it is in terms of discomfort for my partners. I don't think I ever said pride was bad. I just don't understand the motivation behind pride in things. MJR gave probably the smartest answer I'm likely to get and I'm very happy with it because it's very logical to me.

Sorry to piss you off, I had a run in with a model from MM over the weekend and it's playing on my nerves a bit.

Bob Randall Photography wrote:
WE WON, 34 TO 7, YEAH WE BEAT THE lions!

As you see we are all prone to pride, in things we do, and even those we have very little to do with.

Dredful Jaymz wrote:
I hope your day goes better, Bob.
How is the weather in Kowloon, anyhow?

I just moved to Peoria and haven't had time to change my bio page. The weather here sucks and CAT is laying people off, so it's depressing as well. The Producer's Dairy Show which was a rip off of the Bozo the Clown show is off the air so I can't make fun of the kids of the blue collar workers that used to play on the show and the only thing there is to shoot here is a steel toe shoe catalog where the art director keeps talking about the real life values of the wearer and how they relate to a cross section shot of the inside of the shoe showing the steel part of the toe with that very thin layer of thinsulate (hence my use of the term thin) which is supposed to not only protect your toes but keep them warm too. I appreciate your effort and the response you gave but I have to say it took a lot of work to follow and I'm not sure that Maslov character has anything worth listening to mostly because he has his head buried so far up his as that his words sound more like farts than wisdom.

Bob Randall Photography wrote:
I'm not sure that Maslov character has anything worth listening to mostly because he has his head buried so far up his as that his words sound more like farts than wisdom.

Why I try to keep it simple and mostly comedic. Sounding lofty and using Latin terminology are beyond me and the cause of headaches.

I know what you're going through right now. I've often thought of blogging big business and the upcoming new third world nation "US", but I'm not sure I'll miss spending a portion of my work day in 125 degrees to 150 degrees, for PPG. I'm now the lowest in seniority in my department. Our workforce has been cut by more than half.

Good luck, Bob.

Dredful Jaymz wrote:

Why I try to keep it simple and mostly comedic. Sounding lofty and using Latin terminology are beyond me and the cause of headaches.

I know what you're going through right now. I've often thought of blogging big business and the upcoming new third world nation "US", but I'm not sure I'll miss spending a portion of my work day in 125 degrees to 150 degrees, for PPG. I'm now the lowest in seniority in my department. Our workforce has been cut by more than half.

Good luck, Bob.

Just curious, you did realize the "WE WON' beating the lions and all that was a joke, didn't you. God, please tell me you knew that.

Bob Randall Photography wrote:
End of first quarter, BEARS 10, lions nothing, nada, zip, zilch, zero, 0.

I was thrown and unsure, and it does go really well with the theme of the post. I like your humor, for like mine, it will take some getting use to.

Dredful Jaymz wrote:
Well, with this . . . .

I was thrown and unsure, and it does go really well with the theme of the post. I like your humor, for like mine, it will take some getting use to.

Wow, I gotta work on my presentation skills. If you read my bio page it does say I suck at communication on the web.