AGFA Guy wrote:
Why not pay the models a few bucks? I have never had a model flake when I pay them a few bucks. Nothing free has any value.

I agree with you in theory....but even if you are paying that doesn't guarantee smooth sailing. If I needed them for a specific project, I would. I'm not desperate for models to shoot, I just want to keep the time productive....and it would benefit us all. That will probably be the only TFP shoot I will do for a month or so.

Vance wrote:
Public Chipperings...

Ok..close thread...

LOL

Uh, yea.

AGFA Guy wrote:
Why not pay the models a few bucks? I have never had a model flake when I pay them a few bucks. Nothing free has any value.

My time isn't free, and neither is that of the models I work with.  We all consider the images to which we're contributing valuable compensation for our un-free time.  If they weren't, we wouldn't do them.

It's the whole concept of "free"ness that bugs me in this equation.  Collaborative efforts are hardly free; time, effort, skill, training, and often incidental expenses are involved.  How is that free?

AGFA Guy wrote:
Why not pay the models a few bucks? I have never had a model flake when I pay them a few bucks. Nothing free has any value.

1. You've been lucky then. Flakes come in all sizes & shapes & pay & non-pay.

2. TFP is free?! Please tell me as a photographer you didn't say that.

Sita Mae Edwards wrote:
My time isn't free, and neither is that of the models I work with.

Yet does any money change hands?

Sita Mae Edwards wrote:
We all consider the images to which we're contributing valuable compensation for our un-free time.  If they weren't, we wouldn't do them.

It's the whole concept of "free"ness that bugs me in this equation.  Collaborative efforts are hardly free; time, effort, skill, training, and often incidental expenses are involved.  How is that free?

When you shoot TFP you are saying that your time is free from a models perspective. The reality of Internet Modeling is that any pretty young girl can post some webcam/cell phone pics on a site like this and get as many TFP shoots as they want. If they flake and blow you off who cares there are plenty more where you came from.

The whole idea of TFP is lame, as many photogs do not even give prints anymore, all they give is a CD that costs 15 cents. If you were 18 years old would you find value in that when you could get it from dozens more just like you.

I have NEVER had a model flake when I pay them a few bucks, I have had plenty of models flake when all I was offering was a CD.

I am not talking about paying huge money either. A tank of gas is all they get, but they are very happy, don't flake, and show up on time ready to go.

Farenell Photography wrote:
2. TFP is free?! Please tell me as a photographer you didn't say that.

as a Photographer I would never say that, but from a models perspective it sure is.

AGFA Guy wrote:

Yet does any money change hands?


When you shoot TFP you are saying that your time is free from a models perspective. The reality of Internet Modeling is that any pretty young girl can post some webcam/cell phone pics on a site like this and get as many TFP shoots as they want. If they flake and blow you off who cares there are plenty more where you came from.

The whole idea of TFP is lame, as many photogs do not even give prints anymore, all they give is a CD that costs 15 cents. If you were 18 years old would you find value in that when you could get it from dozens more just like you.

I have NEVER had a model flake when I pay them a few bucks, I have had plenty of models flake when all I was offering was a CD.

I am not talking about paying huge money either. A tank of gas is all they get, but they are very happy, don't flake, and show up on time ready to go.

That's bullshit. Yes for you personally it's lame and is free to the model.

Each situation is different. Models have it harder than the photographers. Many get less shoots than we get photoshoots. Point? A model is looking to get her portfolio established. For the models who are looking to do this, is getting a trade. A deal for her service to the photographer and the photographer is getting a deal because the model has posed for him to add to his or her portfolio. It goes both ways.

The money thing comes in if the model is in demand is already established and don't have to do free shoots. Call it what you want, but every image on my portfolio is a tfcd. Lame? Nope. Business, you better believe it. If your work is good, they'll come, but this doesn't mean that all that like and ask to work with you will come. Pay isn't always the solution. Proof. There have been plenty of models who have flaked on a paid jobs on MM. It's more about a lack of courtersy and ethics.

AGFA Guy wrote:
Yet does any money change hands?

I don't think money is the only measure of value.  In the past three weeks alone, four of the models I've photographed have gotten paying gigs as a direct result of working with me, and of the images I took of them.  That's a valuable return on their initial time investment.

AGFA Guy wrote:
When you shoot TFP you are saying that your time is free from a models perspective. The reality of Internet Modeling is that any pretty young girl can post some webcam/cell phone pics on a site like this and get as many TFP shoots as they want. If they flake and blow you off who cares there are plenty more where you came from.

I've actually only had one model bail on me, and she vanished from MM entirely.  I'm a little bit worried that something bad happened to her.  It's really not an ongoing problem for me, so I'm not entering this discussion with rancor or resentment.  Just concern at the pervasive notion that a photographer's time is essentially worthless.  Mine certainly isn't.

Anyway, I don't want to get sucked into yet another TFP debate, I just really wanted to say that I think it's a shame that we're furthering the idea that a photographer's time, skill, training, and love of the craft is without value.  In my world, everyone who contributes to the final image, whether model or photographer or hair stylist or makeup artist or wardrobe stylist or retoucher, they're all valuable parts of the process, and the final image wouldn't be what it is without any of them.

All of their experience, training, and passion is valuable.

Including mine. 

UnoMundo Photography wrote:
so you are doing PhotoShoots for free. many photographers pay money to go to Photoshoots with  several  models and other photograpohers.
there are Glamour Photoshoots, Fashion Photoshoots..

The host gets paid , the model get paid, the photographers pay to be there.


BARTER is NOT an economy  !

Read. This is not a regular thing for me....read. Is every shoot you do paid? I prefer most of mine to be too, but in a roundabout way, even what you call "free" shoots have gotten me paid work.

Iona Lynn wrote:
As a photographer I'm not going to pay to shoot some model with someone elses set up, someone elses outfits, someone elses lights,

Everything has it's place and haveing three models do tfp in one day instead of  three diffrent days is just saving time and effort.

In my case no one running any of these glamour shoots, groups shoots, shootouts wuld have paid these models I worked with they were too green and didn't have the right look.

Diffret standards for diffrent levels.


Oh that TFP I did a while back for free traded time and effort for images to "models" some other person saw the images and is going to HIRE me to photograph an event...

Thank you, that was my point exactly!

AGFA Guy wrote:
as a Photographer I would never say that, but from a models perspective it sure is.

So a model isn't sacrifacing money in buying the clothes she brings to a shoot? She isn't sacrifacing money into her makeup supplies? She isn't sacrifacing her time or gas money into getting to where you guys are shooting? She isn't sacrifacing her time in actually modeling for you?

Sita Mae Edwards wrote:
My time isn't free, and neither is that of the models I work with.  We all consider the images to which we're contributing valuable compensation for our un-free time.  If they weren't, we wouldn't do them.

It's the whole concept of "free"ness that bugs me in this equation.  Collaborative efforts are hardly free; time, effort, skill, training, and often incidental expenses are involved.  How is that free?

I agree with this completely.



People should get away from this "If it's not for money, then it's for free" mentality.  Just make sure that what you get from the shoot is worth your time...

Farenell Photography wrote:

So a model isn't sacrifacing money in buying the clothes she brings to a shoot? She isn't sacrifacing money into her makeup supplies? She isn't sacrifacing her time or gas money into getting to where you guys are shooting? She isn't sacrifacing her time in actually modeling for you?

Actually we agree here and I think you are missing my point. As a photgrapher I have tens of thousands of dollars invested in cameras, lenses, lighting, computers, darkroom, chemicals, software etc. Not to mention years of experience, classes, training, reading, etc. I am sure you do also. SO we feel that we bring a lot to the shoot and of course we do.

A model also feels like she also has a lot invested, all the things you mentioned above. So she feels like she is giving all of that away for free. In her world photographers are all the same, as she does not understand photography. I have never heard a model on one of these boards say, "He said we were going shoot 120 Medium Format Tri-X with his 'Blad, but instead he used his 5D"

The internet modeling world has created a sense of entitlement in a lot of models. If they are hot, and do not live in the middle of nowhere they will get TONS of TFP offers, so if they blow you off who cares, there are plenty more of you who will work with them.

So what you have is a situation where on the one hand Photogs feel they are bringing a lot to the table and the model should be happy to work with them, and we are doing them a favor by shooting TFP. On the other hand you have Models who feel they are bringing a lot to the table, and are doing you the photog a favor by shooting TFP.

So we get thread after thread on sites like this from Photogs about models that "flake", don't show up, show up late, agreed to shoot topless then wouldn't etc., etc., etc,

And thread after thread from models, about Photogs that were creeps, tried to get them naked, would not allow escorts, were "mean", etc., etc., etc.

Iona Lynn wrote:
I have done that same thing last week as a photographer, it worked great. We didn't get a mua though but I want one for next time.

we had 5 commit 1 drop out last min and one super late, but shot 4 models and had a lot of fun, and there was overlap so we all got to chat and learn.

Hm, that sounds familiar.... Let's do it again.

Legacys 7 wrote:
AGFAGUY is missing many points here because he is trying to sum everything into one category. The world doesn't work like that.

Actually no I am not. I am posting in a thread called "An idea to reduce flaking likelihood on TFP? " I am not trying to sum the entire world of photography and modeling into one category, and I am not trying to do anything but talk about how to reduce flaking likelihood with TFP shoots. My idea is to pay the models a little bit of cash, because when you do that you separate yourself from the dozens of other requests they get for TFP shoots every week.

I have come to this conclusion after talking with many models from this site and from other sites like OMP.

Like I said, paid isn't always the solution.  A flake will flake with or without money.

When did I say it was always the solution? All I have said is that it works for me, like anything in life your mileage may vary.

Again anything free has no value, and TFP is free. On any given day a photog could shoot a wedding, shoot portraits, pets, news, models, etc, etc, etc, and get paid, or they could do the exact same things and shoot a model for TFP and not get paid. (work for free)

On any given day a model could be working somewhere doing something and making money. Or they could shoot TFP with any of a hundred photogs and not get paid (work for free), except to get a CD that costs 15 cents.

Nothing wrong with TFP, if it works for you great! If you are having fun with it great! Keep on doing it, more power to you. I played that game for a long time, I tried EVERYTHING including group shoots, and in the end I found it was much easier to drop a few bucks and hire the model I wanted to shoot with.

AGFA Guy wrote:
And thread after thread from models, about Photogs that were creeps, tried to get them naked, would not allow escorts, were "mean", etc., etc., etc.

I THINK I get what you're trying to saying in the admittedly heavily edited quote (basically to condense it). Maybe I'm just being an idealist when I say this, but for every posting I see from a model/photographer venting about something, I take it just as that...that they are blowing off steam. Just think about how many times people vent throughout the day. I don't take it that the person feels like that 24-7....well of 95% of the people anyway. I just happened to catch them at that particular time that they felt they needed to do it. I try to take into account that a lot of it could have been solved by just communicating CLEARLY w/ each other &/or just want the attaboy attention or need the boo-hoo need.

But for the value of TFP...is the negotiation process that hard? This is what I'm initially offering. Can you live to this particular negioated modified deal? If the "price" (however that's defined) is to rich for either of our bloods, a simple "No thank you" will suffice & we move on to the next customer. That's business in pretty much any bartering economy (which in my opinion is exactly what a TFP shoot is).

AGFA Guy wrote:
My idea is to pay the models a little bit of cash, because when you do that you separate yourself from the dozens of other requests they get for TFP shoots every week.

Although I can understand your reasoning behind doing so. However what you're proposing is paying the very type of model (in the condensed quote), those that don't see the benefit in doing TFP to expand their portfolio, to work w/ you where they otherwise wouldn't.

Why would I want to do that if my portfolio doesn't have any redemtion that is triggering in their heads, "It would be wise if I worked w/ this person." Or to take a different approach, is shelling a few bucks on an untested, inexperienced model the wisest investment that one can make? I can't speak for you but I'm sure as heck am not in a position to throw away money on such people. I've got bills up the wazoo that take priority.

One the one hand, you say this in reference to my "TFP's aren't free for models"

AGFA Guy wrote:
Actually we agree here and I think you are missing my point

but then you reassert this again:

AGFA Guy wrote:
Again anything free has no value, and TFP is free.

...so is TFP free or not free? Or is it somewhere in between like most of life's big issues?

I just don't subscribe to your assertation that TFP's are "free." People will see those images, maybe not here on MM or OMP or whatever, & will be like I want to hire you for such & such an idea. If I'm able to weasle my way into doing so, THAT is when I hardcore push for the people that have taken the time to work w/ me "when it was free." That is their payment. I scratch their back & you scratch mine. Some models are ok w/ that & some aren't. But the ones that are ok w/ it, THOSE are the relationships that I try & cultivate.

In the grand scheme of things, if paying is something that you find that works. Go for it, man. Who am I to tell you that my way is law? Well...I unless I finally ascend to the dictator of the world position that I've been trying to undermine. But that's only in my warped, overactive imagination.

Sita Mae Edwards wrote:

My time isn't free, and neither is that of the models I work with.  We all consider the images to which we're contributing valuable compensation for our un-free time.  If they weren't, we wouldn't do them.

It's the whole concept of "free"ness that bugs me in this equation.  Collaborative efforts are hardly free; time, effort, skill, training, and often incidental expenses are involved.  How is that free?

Absolutely agree here as both a model and beginning photographer...  I do love the idea of group shots

Jay Farrell wrote:
I didn't start this thread to have a discussion about peoples' opinions about TFP.....this is a pretty sound idea to maximize time for people who want to do them selectively or sparingly, and save your appointment space.....I wanted thoughts about this particular idea, but as usual someone had to go off topic....and there are plenty of comedians out of work as it stands If it keeps going the wrong direction, may as well close it.

Hang on here.

You post a thread about 1 alternative to reducing flakey models then you ask for our thoughts? Someone replied w/ basically why don't you just pay them some money. Then you counter that w/ your own legitimate views as to why you'd rather not.

The tangent was legitimate because it stemmed from your initial counterresponse.

AGFA Guy wrote:

Legacys 7 wrote:
AGFAGUY is missing many points here because he is trying to sum everything into one category. The world doesn't work like that.

Actually no I am not. I am posting in a thread called "An idea to reduce flaking likelihood on TFP? " I am not trying to sum the entire world of photography and modeling into one category, and I am not trying to do anything but talk about how to reduce flaking likelihood with TFP shoots. My idea is to pay the models a little bit of cash, because when you do that you separate yourself from the dozens of other requests they get for TFP shoots every week.

I have come to this conclusion after talking with many models from this site and from other sites like OMP.


When did I say it was always the solution? All I have said is that it works for me, like anything in life your mileage may vary.

Again anything free has no value, and TFP is free. On any given day a photog could shoot a wedding, shoot portraits, pets, news, models, etc, etc, etc, and get paid, or they could do the exact same things and shoot a model for TFP and not get paid. (work for free)

On any given day a model could be working somewhere doing something and making money. Or they could shoot TFP with any of a hundred photogs and not get paid (work for free), except to get a CD that costs 15 cents.

Nothing wrong with TFP, if it works for you great! If you are having fun with it great! Keep on doing it, more power to you. I played that game for a long time, I tried EVERYTHING including group shoots, and in the end I found it was much easier to drop a few bucks and hire the model I wanted to shoot with.

Agfaguy,

actually you did but in a indirect way. What you had addressed is that tfp or tfcd is lame. Ok, your point is that pay will resolve these issues here. My point is that many photographers have had models bail out on them even with pay.

Vance had made a valid point on anoither forum about bait and switch that he has expereinced on here. They are very clear what he is asking for on his profile, but once they get things going, suddenly the model drops the pay bomb on him.

The flake thing really isn't about paying. Yeah a suggestion has come up on here. Like you have gave your suggerstion and feel that this is the fact to why models flake, it isn't really but just another alternative that hasn't worked with many models who still flake. This is why I addressed the flake is a flake no matter what.

All of my models that I have worked with aren't a pay thing. Yeap, I'd like to pay them too, but can't just yet until I get my portfolio to I want it first. Once I do this then I can get paid jobs that the models can and will get paid for. But many models are aware of the tfcd/tfp deal because many of us do address this with the models before hand via phone, and the models state that they are familar and agree to it.

The flake issue is a more complex thing that isn't solely about pay. Lately for my first time ever in 1 week had some of the craziest ass excuses on the same day that we are suppose to shoot. They are fine that day that we are suppose to shioot, suddenly I have had two models in 2 days have car acciddents, a model who car first breaks down 3 times and the last time past out on her job because of a prescription, including a mua who passed out on her job too only to have her have a friend email me from her email and to top that off, was suppose to work on a make up job recently, spoke to both I and the model only to never show up at the model's house like we all agreed to do and haven't heard from her to this day.

The sad part is, these models, except for one asked to work with me.

Jay Farrell wrote:
I didn't start this thread to have a discussion about peoples' opinions about TFP.....this is a pretty sound idea to maximize time for people who want to do them selectively or sparingly, and save your appointment space.....I wanted thoughts about this particular idea, but as usual someone had to go off topic....and there are plenty of comedians out of work as it stands If it keeps going the wrong direction, may as well close it.

Thank you Jay. And that is why I said what I said to AGFAGUY.