S D Images wrote:
Maybe it's because your port doesn't display enough diversity for either group to wanna participate. Their probably thinking, what does this "white person" have to offer that would make me want to work with them. People feel more comfortable working along with folks whom they can see themselves within their work that is displayed. Like if your entire port is filled with only nudity, a person may be reluctant to reply to your AD seeking clothed models, because what creditability as a photographer do you have for clothed subjects? Your photos have kind of a "redneck or hillbilly theme" to them, which may not interest a "non-white person"? That’s all, later MM folks!

S.D.

This is so true.  I think thats one of the drawbacks to my portfolio.  I would love to diversify, but am finding it hard.

S D Images wrote:
Maybe it's because your port doesn't display enough diversity for either group to wanna participate. Their probably thinking, what does this "white person" have to offer that would make me want to work with them. People feel more comfortable working along with folks whom they can see themselves within their work that is displayed. Like if your entire port is filled with only nudity, a person may be reluctant to reply to your AD seeking clothed models, because what creditability as a photographer do you have for clothed subjects? Your photos have kind of a "redneck or hillbilly theme" to them, which may not interest a "non-white person"? That’s all, later MM folks!

S.D.

I have to agree, and would add that saying all your images are "as-is" from the camera is not the wisest thing to do! All models benefit from post-processing, the lack of which gives images a definite GWC-ishness. "Naughty snake" is a good example. Some skin-smooting could help take it from good to great!

S D Images wrote:
Maybe it's because your port doesn't display enough diversity for either group to wanna participate. Their probably thinking, what does this "white person" have to offer that would make me want to work with them. People feel more comfortable working along with folks whom they can see themselves within their work that is displayed. Like if your entire port is filled with only nudity, a person may be reluctant to reply to your AD seeking clothed models, because what creditability as a photographer do you have for clothed subjects? Your photos have kind of a "redneck or hillbilly theme" to them, which may not interest a "non-white person"? That’s all, later MM folks!

S.D.

This is just mean and out of place.  "Redneck and hillbilly"  I've often said that
location, good marketing being friendly and professional as well as having
a few attractive models in your book works wonders.  He needs to advertise
or go to a more racially diverse area but his themes are just fine.

rp_photo wrote:

I have to agree, and would add that saying all your images are "as-is" from the camera is not the wisest thing to do! All models benefit from post-processing, the lack of which gives images a definite GWC-ishness. "Naughty snake" is a good example. Some skin-smooting could help take it from good to great!

Yeah, the whole "no photoshop" thing scared me too. Even supermodels need retouching!

And, while I would have phrased it a bit differently than S.D., there is an element to your port that would have scared me off had I just been browsing for new photogs. The aesthetic seems more geared for... All-American types. Blond, blue eyes. Daisy dukes. Not saying you have to change it... but you're going to make it clear that you're looking to expand. This thread is a good start!

Kim Nicole wrote:
[Yeah, the whole "no photoshop" thing scared me too. Even supermodels need retouching!

Like many have said, it's the final result that matters, not the details of getting there. Over-stating the details of your workflow just serves to confuse.

Stevens Photogrpahy wrote:
Seems to be very hard to find truly good (whick includes dependable!) Asian and African American models.  Thoughts?

I think it really depends on where you live and what you are looking for ....LIving where I do ( Vancovuver Canada ) over 40percnet of the population is Asian - so there are a number of tall( 5'8 -5'11 )and beuatiful Chinese , and even Japanese fashion models that I work with ,,,,,Not so lucky though iwth respect to Black Models here in Vancity-though south of the boarder ie Seattle lloks more promising

Paul Ferrara wrote:
If you'd get rid of the booty-shots and start retouching your images, things might be different.

Paul

ouch.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
'course nobody else has booty shots.  Oh, no.

if someone invented as ass lift, akin to a bra, then there would finally be a commercial reason for the ass to be displayed more often, and for it to get the recognition it lacks in comparison to boobs.

KM von Seidl wrote:

if someone invented as ass lift, akin to a bra, then there would finally be a commercial reason for the ass to be displayed more often, and for it to get the recognition it lacks in comparison to boobs.

The booming men's magazine market provides a pretty stable income for many photographers.  And one of the main commodities......ASS.

KM von Seidl wrote:

if someone invented as ass lift, akin to a bra, then there would finally be a commercial reason for the ass to be displayed more often, and for it to get the recognition it lacks in comparison to boobs.

I agree and its time for the booty to take its rightfall place outside of the
urban market.  This will be the year of the booty!

Ransom J wrote:

The booming men's magazine market provides a pretty stable income for many photographers.  And one of the main commodities......ASS.

I have to agree. Which is why I don't understand why people are tripping off of it for. It's a big market. There is alot worst on this website. I don't see anyone complaining about fetish and that's been around forever in photography.

Don't get me wrong, I like some fetish work and want to do some myself with my own style. But then there is the extreme stuff. Imo, fetish is no more different than the ass shots. It is just matter of preference.


Ass shots is why Maxim and King magazine is in business. There is a market for it. I've said this sometime back on here.

Richard Franklin wrote:
Without personalising things I would add the following.
We are in a very competitive field. If your work is consistently outstanding and original then excellent models of all races creeds and colors will seek you out and you will be in a position to pick and choose. If you are not that differentiated from the pack then they won't! At the end of the day it's not about "them" it's about you and your work.

I disagree most models really have no ideal whats good.  Its more about location,
marketing and area.  If you have it totally together then you might not be on
MM looking for models of any color.  I say that models often have limited
knowlege of whats good based on all those 'love your work.' and 'you're
a great photographer' on some of the worst images ever.

Tony Lawrence wrote:

I disagree most models really have no ideal whats good.  Its more about location,
marketing and area.  If you have it totally together then you might not be on
MM looking for models of any color.  I say that models often have limited
knowlege of whats good based on all those 'love your work.' and 'you're
a great photographer' on some of the worst images ever.

I further disagree.  Most PEOPLE have a basic understanding of what is aestheticly pleasing, that much has been part of scientific research for decades.  Just because a model may not know the nuances of lighting and composition by the text book doesn't mean that she doesn't know what's GOOD.  Especially in a world where GOOD is so subjective.

Ransom J wrote:

I further disagree.  Most PEOPLE have a basic understanding of what is aestheticly pleasing, that much has been part of scientific research for decades.  Just because a model may not know the nuances of lighting and composition by the text book doesn't mean that she doesn't know what's GOOD.  Especially in a world where GOOD is so subjective.

Ransom, please.  Not to insult models but the quotes I read that some of the
models leave some of the crap of this site or the sometimes awfull images
models proudly use and think is good tells me they don't.  Art is subjective
as you point out but I remember those wonderfull pantings of clowns
remember those.  Art, hardly.  Good, well I wouldn't hang them in my home.
The photographer posting about his problems getting models of color has work
comparable to most here.   Here's the deal you could shoot like Penn or Avedon
(know these guys, I'm sure you do.) and models might not be intrested in
shooting with you.  If you're not close to a big city or area with models then
it will be hard to get models to come to you.  You could shoot like Miesel or
Helmut Newton would models like your work and be willing to travel to you?
Without good advertising and marketing you'll remain a well kept secret.  There
are going to be people like you who may be popular and your work is cool.
However the quality of a photographers work based on what I see and read
is only a part of the puzzle unless all the photographers who are talented are
lying about all the no show models or having a hard time getting models.

Tony Lawrence wrote:

Ransom, please.  Not to insult models but the quotes I read that some of the
models leave some of the crap of this site or the sometimes awfull images
models proudly use and think is good tells me they don't.  Art is subjective
as you point out but I remember those wonderfull pantings of clowns
remember those.  Art, hardly.  Good, well I wouldn't hang them in my home.
The photographer posting about his problems getting models of color has work
comparable to most here.   Here's the deal you could shoot like Penn or Avedon
(know these guys, I'm sure you do.) and models might not be intrested in
shooting with you.  If you're not close to a big city or area with models then
it will be hard to get models to come to you.  You could shoot like Miesel or
Helmut Newton would models like your work and be willing to travel to you?
Without good advertising and marketing you'll remain a well kept secret.  There
are going to be people like you who may be popular and your work is cool.
However the quality of a photographers work based on what I see and read
is only a part of the puzzle unless all the photographers who are talented are
lying about all the no show models or having a hard time getting models.

I'm not arguing your point about marketing and location, just your sub-point about models not knowing good photography if it bit them in the ass.  i don't even think you can use what they put in their own ports as evidence of what they thin is good, because try as we might to be objective to ourself, when we are enthusiastic and proud of our accomplishments we tend to look at our work with rose colored glasses.  When i first started shooting I didn't think I was that great but i didn't think I sucked either, then i learned some tricks, and understood lighting  better and shoot better images, at the time i thought my work was pretty damn good, but I look back NOW and see that it was crap.  Now i'm at another stage of development nd while I think I'm a pretty damn decent photographer, there are plenty that will look upon my work as crap.  But of course i look at it knowing my own progress, time and energy I put into my work so I can't help but put a rosy tint onto my own work.  Same goes with the models.  they go out, they shoot, the images are crap but they are making progress toward their modeling gol so they are happy and proud of their work.  This doesn't diminish their ability to see crap in ANOTHERS work, just their own.  Hence I say that we all inherently know what's good and bad.

Ransom J wrote:

I'm not arguing your point about marketing and location, just your sub-point about models not knowing good photography if it bit them in the ass.  i don't even think you can use what they put in their own ports as evidence of what they thin is good, because try as we might to be objective to ourself, when we are enthusiastic and proud of our accomplishments we tend to look at our work with rose colored glasses.  When i first started shooting I didn't think I was that great but i didn't think I sucked either, then i learned some tricks, and understood lighting  better and shoot better images, at the time i thought my work was pretty damn good, but I look back NOW and see that it was crap.  Now i'm at another stage of development nd while I think I'm a pretty damn decent photographer, there are plenty that will look upon my work as crap.  But of course i look at it knowing my own progress, time and energy I put into my work so I can't help but put a rosy tint onto my own work.  Same goes with the models.  they go out, they shoot, the images are crap but they are making progress toward their modeling gol so they are happy and proud of their work.  This doesn't diminish their ability to see crap in ANOTHERS work, just their own.  Hence I say that we all inherently know what's good and bad.

You must be related to me 'cause we fight like brothers.  Anyway many models don't know what's good or what will market them best.  They don't know the
agencies they should go to nor how much of this works.  This isn't a insult
but because many are very young and inexpirenced.  As far as knowing whats
good, go look around at what models find good and report back.  Some know
and if they like your work they'd be right but that same model would heap praise
on some trash.  As far as inherently knowing whats good and bad.  When I
was a kid I thought comic books were literature.  In grammer school it was
Dick and Jane and high school,  War and Peace so people can grow and learn.
Many of the models here stay at the Dick and Jane level.  They could care less
about growth and feel what they have is fine and guess what it mostly is.
If you are being told that out of focus shot in your panties makes you look
hot then why travel anywhere to shoot with someone.  The models that grow
and improve are those who are truly serious or love shooting and want to
improve their books.  The thing is for many there would be no payoff.  They
would get the same horny replies from the same horny men.   By the way
recently I received a big time pat on the back from a photographer who has
some killer work.  He really liked two of my shots.  Know what it didn't make
me feel better or worse because I take complements like I take crtitisism.  Same
goes for the models who love my work.  One last thing, recently a model showed
me a horrible snapshot taken by a name New York shooter.  It was bad but
she was so proud of it and when my dumb ass asked for a better image one
that showed her better she screamed at me and hung up the phone.  (Bad
manners of me, I know.) point is because she really didn't know and some name
photographer gave her the photo it had to be good.

Legacys 7 wrote:
Let me interject. Ransom and Lawrence? Both of you are right within your points. But Lawrence has some points here. I don't think that Lawrence is generalizing. Lawrence is referring to many models on here and not models who find work good solely on visual appeal and that's it.

Lawrence is referring to many who are flakes, and there are alot of them on here, including the 'you have nice work' compliments. The way that many present his or herself in their writings in their post is obvious. There is a large percentage of models on here who don't have a clue and this also applies to photographers too.

There are some models who are honest in their port about not knowing and then there are some who come with the 'paid assignments only' post and their portfolio is lacking. I really mean lacking. Ransom I'm sure that you have seen this on more than one occasion with some who have approached you.

Some figure just because they drop their panties that this means pay. No it doesn't nor does it mean that they have some type of business sense of the business. But like I had said, so do many photographers on here.

I have photographed a few models on here. So far, far as I know, I haven't had any issues at all. But then there are the ones who email me and want to work and meet, only to never hear back from them even after we have talked on the phone. To me this is an example of someone who doesn't understand the business,ethics and just don't care.


What I'm gettting ready to do now is work on my real work, something that I haven't began to work on yet. This website has been a testing ground for me to see who is reliable and how far I can go with my real Vision. What I'm getting ready to do is start scoping those who I know that will fit my Vision and my Eye-deas. But I had to see if it's worth my time on here to work on my goal because I don't want to chase down those who aren't reliable or fit what I want to do. In a nut shell are serious about modeling.

Anyways, like I said, both of you are right on this topic.

Well said,  Ransom just hates my guts.  If I said the sky was blue he would
disagree.  Just playing I guess.  People shouldn't just say that the reason
this photographer is having problems getting minority models is his work.
There are also other issues at play.  Why I'm always the one defending people?
Anyway I love dueling with Ransom he's a bright guy but as usual I'm right.
Actually I think Ransom makes a great point many of us without any art
training can tell if something is good but then explain the success of Denny's
or Domino's Pizza.  (I don't mean to insult anyone that likes their food.)
but it ain't that good.

Legacys 7 wrote:
Lawrence you're 100% correct on your last post. I am currently speaking to a model on here via email who is one of the more popular ones on here with a killer portfolio. Out of respect I won't post names on here. Anyways, she has admited to not knowing the business. Some people can be mislead when they see a model's port or a photographer's port and think that they really have it going on. This isn't always the case.

Just like the model that I'm referring to told me that I was right and that some of these so called 'experts' on here didn''t know what they were talking about and my advice turned out to be the right one. That advice has put her in a position that another told her that she couldn't fit because of her look.

I tell people on here for the ones that listen, do your research and learn what is marketable and what will work for you or what you can work in. Try and sometimes you'll have to experiment as long as it is going to pay off in the end if it's worth it. But don't just jump in head first not knowing. Do your research. And always, always get more than one opinion. And I don't mean more than one on here but off of here.

I agree.  While some here really do know their stuff ya gotta try and see
for yourself.  How many agencies rejected Cindy Crawford?  Nobody has a crystal
ball.  We should listen to the pros but still persue your dream, just do it
with the full knowlege of your possible limitations. Dave Chappell has a funny
skit about a talent agent who told him he didn't 'have it' true story from
what I understand.  Well the comedy channel would disagree.  Yes, many times
the pros have it right and again I'm not saying not to listen but just remember
its your life and none us including my big mouth self is living it for you.
Check things out for yourself!

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Well said,  Ransom just hates my guts.  If I said the sky was blue he would
disagree.  Just playing I guess.  People shouldn't just say that the reason
this photographer is having problems getting minority models is his work.
There are also other issues at play.  Why I'm always the one defending people?
Anyway I love dueling with Ransom he's a bright guy but as usual I'm right.
Actually I think Ransom makes a great point many of us without any art
training can tell if something is good but then explain the success of Denny's
or Domino's Pizza.  (I don't mean to insult anyone that likes their food.)
but it ain't that good.

Ditto on the part about a photographer is just in the wrong place. this isn't always the case. Not that the photographer was trying to stereotype, but I have expereince this too and I'm black. Some aren't serious at all.


It's several factors to why things happen. And it isn't primarily a lack of skills. There are some veterans who have been doing this for some years on here and have a reputation on this site as a must work with hae had this same experience.


Again, I never had a flake. All of my models, so far have stepped up to the plate. But you gotta feel them out and let them know that you mean business. And trust me, there are ways to do this and to be taken serious. Especially when they are coming to you.

NitaCashmere wrote:
I'm in Indiana...and I don't flake.

and just my luck cause you are ultra fine!  Check out the OP as he's
looking but I'm in Texas and if I could fly you here I would in a hearbeat.

Stevens Photography wrote:
Sure am glad you are not my doctor.  Your "diagnosis" says more about you than me, my friend!  Gosh, I didn't know, after all these years, that I am unprofessional, lack presentation skills, and have no ability.  Thank you for your infinite wisdom!

Perhaps its just the way you come off. Im gonna go out on a limb here and assume that you dont have a lot of African American friends. People can feel it when you are not comfortable or lack the experience needed to communicate effectively. Solution: Meet and greet more African Americans. It's not as hard as it seems.  Good luck.