Posted by Shawn Kuck: 
Now I haven't seen the image you guys are talking about, but its funny how closed minded artists can be. Tell me where the line is between what's art and whats not. Can you tell me the line or is it more of a call it as you see it thing? what about Joel peter Witkin, is he art with his freaks and dwarves? Who gets to say what art is and isn't. it's funny the more things change the more they stay the same, was never more true.

It's not policing one' art that is done here...it's working in the guidlines of images on the site. I have more books on Maplethorps works than you will know. Art for art sake is that what you are asking of my statement to just one image here. It's not a battle line that I draw upon here..but a questioning of just one image..I am blessed by so many others work here that I have found new desires as to them.......so if you can find that image I talk about and tell me what it is that says anything about this site.


Shawn

Posted by Shawn Kuck: 
Now I haven't seen the image you guys are talking about, but its funny how closed minded artists can be. Tell me where the line is between what's art and whats not. Can you tell me the line or is it more of a call it as you see it thing? what about Joel peter Witkin, is he art with his freaks and dwarves? Who gets to say what art is and isn't. it's funny the more things change the more they stay the same, was never more true.

The picture contained no artistry whatsoever and was done with a poor quality digital. The human body is a miracle and to display it in such poor taste is disrespectful to everyone,,it's just my opinion. I do not believe in censorship, because we live in a free country and I cherish the right to express myself freely. So I guess there will always be people expressing themselves in ways that I don't like, thank God I have the right to complain about it though! lol

Shawn

Posted by Steven LaMarco: 
I have seen lots of images on here and quality is the least of the issues. How about taking a 16-year-old girl and making her sexy, is that not wrong? How about when a photographer turns there own fetish into art, is it still art if it is filling a personal need driven by sexual desires? I dunno. I say that if someoen is tying up girl taking pictures of them with the look of fear on their face with a HP 4mega pixel, I do not see it as art. I see it as soem guy that has found a way to turn his sexual disires into work feeding the market for others like him.
When someone takes a 16-year-old girl and makes her sexy and desirable, it adds to an on going problem of preditor pedifiles. There are so many girls being taken form their families, rape and murdered in this country everyday. We have a responsibilty to be responsible.

You have brought up SUCH a crucial point Steve! I recently was contacted by a 'photographer" wanting me to do something similar,,,how many younger women have taken the bait then ended up among the missing?

Posted by Chill Factor: 

Posted by Steven LaMarco: 
I have seen lots of images on here and quality is the least of the issues. How about taking a 16-year-old girl and making her sexy, is that not wrong? How about when a photographer turns there own fetish into art, is it still art if it is filling a personal need driven by sexual desires? I dunno. I say that if someoen is tying up girl taking pictures of them with the look of fear on their face with a HP 4mega pixel, I do not see it as art. I see it as soem guy that has found a way to turn his sexual disires into work feeding the market for others like him.
When someone takes a 16-year-old girl and makes her sexy and desirable, it adds to an on going problem of preditor pedifiles. There are so many girls being taken form their families, rape and murdered in this country everyday. We have a responsibilty to be responsible.

You have brought up SUCH a crucial point Steve! I recently was contacted by a 'photographer" wanting me to do something similar,,,how many younger women have taken the bait then ended up among the missing?

This touches on my point about the "anything goes" mentality of popular culture.  I, just recently, rejected the request of a 16 year old model to include me among her friends on this site.  You can't be too careful.  There have to be some kinds of boundaries.  It's not about right or wrong.  It's about appropriateness.  Simply put, behavior that may be appropriate in one context is not appropriate in another.  This is the principal that popular culture seems to be unable to connect with.  The wilder things get, the greater will be the repression to come.  The situation is dangerous.   

Posted by Shawn Kuck: 
Allright, I'm probably going to get slaughtered for this. The reason there is a law against statutory rape, is because there's a desire there. If there was no desire, then there would not be a law. Now don't take this wrong, because I know someone is going to start chanting perv or something on me. But when you make a law against it human nature says ohhh I can't do it I want it even more. Now most of us have enough self control to check that portion of ourselves. But some choose not to. And when you violate the law, they will come down on you.

As artists, it is sometimes our job to question or bring satire to society's rules. Unfortunately our society in the states is puritanical so its really easy to find crap to satire. But again I'm going to restate my earlier statement who draws the line? If no law has been broken, who draws it? Have you ever seen the sculptures that are a buch of crap welded toghether. Some of that sells for more than small houses, why. I don't know, I don't get it personally I think it looks like someone raided a junk yard. But to someone it's art.

Just my rant, lol

Shawn

If something is not right its not right no matter what the reason that it exists is. It would be like saying in a murder trial its ok, since we have all said at one time :Man I coudl kill someone" When in fact the defining fact is we do desire at some point to kill, but we do not because it is not right.

Posted by Shawn Kuck: 
Allright, I'm probably going to get slaughtered for this. The reason there is a law against statutory rape, is because there's a desire there. If there was no desire, then there would not be a law. Now don't take this wrong, because I know someone is going to start chanting perv or something on me. But when you make a law against it human nature says ohhh I can't do it I want it even more. Now most of us have enough self control to check that portion of ourselves. But some choose not to. And when you violate the law, they will come down on you.

As artists, it is sometimes our job to question or bring satire to society's rules. Unfortunately our society in the states is puritanical so its really easy to find crap to satire. But again I'm going to restate my earlier statement who draws the line? If no law has been broken, who draws it? Have you ever seen the sculptures that are a buch of crap welded toghether. Some of that sells for more than small houses, why. I don't know, I don't get it personally I think it looks like someone raided a junk yard. But to someone it's art.

Just my rant, lol

Shawn

I dont intend to slaughter you Shawn but I do question your notion as to why we have laws on statutory rape. It could be simply that there are and always have been underage girls who LOOK of age? That being said, we live in a culture that for some reason thrives on violence towards women with sexual connotations. To feed those kinds of appetites really doesn't do anyone any good.

Posted by Alex Alexander: 
...I met Maplethorp and talk with him long before his death and I understood his work. I will not agree on everything that I have seen of it. ...So why then was I shocked by one image on here.

I had to look up Maplethorp in order to get some context.
http://www.guggenheim.org/exhibitions/p … ts_4a.html

I can only assume you were shocked, because of the obvious, the photographer of the image you saw took the subject matter even further than Maplethorp would dare.

Posted by Shawn Kuck: 
Chill,

Of course I agree. I think it's a travesty the way society as a whole views women. I am currently working on two series of artwork that relates to that. As far as I'm concerned the woman is the best creation in existence. Whole societies used to worship the woman. Our society sees that and attempts to hold it down. If their was no fear of women, there would not be this problem. it goes again to my statement of human nature though. especially male nature. Males are hunters, in general they want what they can't have and hunt it down. Once they have it they're not so interested in it anymore. On a base levels men don't understand women and that breeds fear.

Now that said the mere perception of impropriety is not enough to have someone burned at the stake. The Catholic church did enough of that years ago. I won't stop anyone on here from being my friend, age, sex, personal views, or religion aside.If we do that then we lend credibility of societies views that minors ideas and opinions are invalid, because their too young or a womans view is unimportant because they're the weaker sex. I think we all bring something to the table of value and it's our job as members of society to find the value in what other members are saying. Even if we disagree with their statement, it's our job to foster the idea that all opinions are valid, otherwise it's just repression.

To quote the great philosophers (Monty Python)

"Help, Help I'm being repressed!"

I love these dicussions. Chill you are a worthy adversary. lmao. Thanks for the response

 

Omg this stuff is good! LOL Shawn please do not view me as an adversary!  Men are afraid of women Shawn? What? LOL I never knew that,please tell me why! If men are "hunters" then women must be? what? Gatherers? LOL. I view and try to treat everyone as an equal.People who believe that they are superior to me, find this irritating,,lol. On the other hand it is what endears me to just about everyone else,,,,,I think.

Posted by Chill Factor: 
I agree Vance. To gloss over the fact that people are uploading perverse imagery on this sight or any other with "  that's just someone just doing their job" is a rather apethetic reaction. Our words, deeds and artistry are statements of who we are as PEOPLE. The perversion that has been passing for "art" is lame, unimaginative, and again I say done only for the shock value. As my father used to say,"If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything",,,, me I'll apply that to the so-called artists that only wish to shock and offend anyone with a conscience.

Well said, Chill!

Posted by Emac: 
Unfortunately, this particular site is not about the fine art merits of photography.

Neither is it about the values a society should uphold.

It's about an industry. A business.

Steven mentioned photog #193

I don't like his photos. There's no craft to them, obviously, they are about the subject, only. Not driven by lighting or environment.

But this person is a photographer.

His business is to take pictures of girls in distressing positions, and charge other people to look at them. He is on this site because he is honestly looking for talent.

The fact is, if there's a market for it, it will be shot. and if it's shot, it will most likely be shown.

People can be bothered about 15 or 16 year olds being portrayed sexually, but it's not wrong. That's a subjective statement. In many countries, 16 is the legal age. In a number of countries, people don't actually keep track of their age. This is true.

So as long as people want to see pictures of fresh faced, young bodied girls looking like a sex machine, It'll be shot. and certain people will enjoy the pictures, and certain others will be offended.

I just think it's important to remember this:

You can't give offense. You can only take it.

As Photographer 193, I suppose it's time I said something here.  I am not going to talk about anyone's opinion of my work.  It's their opinion and they're entitled to it.

I will say this:

1) All of the models on my website and in the photos are over 18, and I have all of the appropriate documentation for them in compliance with US Code 2257.  For every model I photograph, I have their ID photos and signed releases clearing me to use the photographs.  Even though I do not photograph ladies who are undressed in any way, I still need to have this information.

2) Most models who have worked with me, have worked with me more than once.  Why?  I suppose they find the work not all that difficult.  The hardest part is looking scared in front of the lights and camera.

3) At most shoots, the model is accompanied by an escort, and at a lot of them, my wife accompanies me.

As to whether what I do is art is left up to the beholder.  Emacs is right, I am here legitimately looking to find models to generate "Damsel-in-distress" content for my websites.  (Thanks Emacs for not panning me as to why I am here...)  Are my photos "art" or not?  I suspect that is an opinion as well.  And as I stated above, everyone is entitled to theirs.  I have mine as to whether it's art or not, but sharing it is moot, as that will open another can of worms.

One more thing and I'll shut up on this, please do feel free to express your opinions on my photos.  Constructive criticism is always welcome, and despite the fact that I do the photos for my adult websites, I am always looking to improve the quality of my work.  I'm not expecting to be Ansel Adams, but ideas, thoughts, and hints are always appreciated.

Posted by Chill Factor: 
Moraxian,,
       Have you ever seriously asked yourself,WHY there is any kind of market for the kind of 'work" that you are doing? Why does anyone find the image of a tied up, bound and gagged terrified female interesting or erotic? I know the answer to that question, and quite frankly find it infuriating. People that get turned on by the expression of FEAR on the face of someone who is in most cases younger and more vulnerable is MOST likely to be a depraved PREDATOR.

Chill,

I wish you'd respond to my post from yesterday about the role that women voluntarily play in all of this.  I'd like to hear from other females, too.

Posted by Chill Factor: 
ok Herb, I will attempt to,lol.
  I do not know what would posess a woman to bring handcuffs to a shoot lol. Getting into the subject of consensuality could lead into a very dark muddy, unproductive place. Me personally? I would not do it for ANY amount of money or compensation, for two reasons, those being, it feeds sick appetites and is very VERY dangerous.

Now, Chill, you don't impress me as one who's into copping out.  We can't deal with the subject without discussing "consensuality."

Posted by Herb Way: 

Posted by Chill Factor: 
ok Herb, I will attempt to,lol.
  I do not know what would posess a woman to bring handcuffs to a shoot lol. Getting into the subject of consensuality could lead into a very dark muddy, unproductive place. Me personally? I would not do it for ANY amount of money or compensation, for two reasons, those being, it feeds sick appetites and is very VERY dangerous.

Now, Chill, you don't impress me as one who's into copping out.  We can't deal with the subject without discussing "consensuality."

You are correct about the cop out part Herb! Lol! don't you think this could wind up being longwinded with the end result being BLAMING THE VICTIM? lmao! Like I said I can't speak on behalf of women who supposedly enter into this "consensually". The whole idea conveyed by the images is to make the viewer BELIEVE that there is a LACK of consent. I am CERTAIN that the facial expression on my current main image would be a total turn off to the consumers of such material lol. Think I'll keep it there for awhile!

Posted by Herb Way: 
"I dont intend to slaughter you Shawn but I do question your notion as to why we have laws on statutory rape. It could be simply that there are and always have been underage girls who LOOK of age? That being said, we live in a culture that for some reason thrives on violence towards women with sexual connotations. To feed those kinds of appetites really doesn't do anyone any good."

I have an 18 year old daughter, and I'm totally opposed to violence against women (against men, too, for that matter), but I question what the participation of women is all about.  What I'm referring to is how, as I browse the portfolios of female models on this site, on MuseCube, and on OMP, I'm shocked to see how many of them contain images of bondage/implied torture.  Clearly these women have not been forced to post these photos.  What's with women's apparent fascination with this fetish and where's their sense of responsibility for contributing to the atmosphere of violence against women?  Just a few weeks ago, at the end of what I thought was a classy artistic nude shoot, the model pulled a pair of handcuffs out of her bag.   

Posted by Chill Factor: 
If you are referring to the image shot in a mirror of the naked guy, with a woman on her knees in front of him, I actually found it to be tasteless. Well done,planned out, tasteful nudity has SO much more of an impact on me than the raunchy stuff. The raunch is just done for shock value,, and who CAN'T do that, it's not art.

At the risk of sounding and looking like a perve. Curious minds want to know where this photo can be viewed...