Posted by Matthew Grogan: 
I would VERY much be interested in knowing what images you guys are referring to, as I respect all of your opinions and would like to investigate this matter.

We don't want MM to be restrictive...don't want the Model Mayhem SS going around and policing every little thing...but if there was an image (or more) bad enough to start this thread, and keep it going, I'd like to know about it.

Thanks!

https://modelmayhem.com/pics.php?id=193

personally, I find these images to have no artistic merit or photographic quality. 

A very well said and thought provoking statement.  I think I need to go back and look at what my "friends" are displaying and do a little spring cleaning.

Posted by Reese, VA . MUA: 

Posted by Chill Factor: 
If you are referring to the image shot in a mirror of the naked guy, with a woman on her knees in front of him, I actually found it to be tasteless. Well done,planned out, tasteful nudity has SO much more of an impact on me than the raunchy stuff. The raunch is just done for shock value,, and who CAN'T do that, it's not art.

At the risk of sounding and looking like a perve. Curious minds want to know where this photo can be viewed...

Indeed we do...for more than just our perverted tendencies, I want to see if the photo needs to be taken down. If you're referring to #193, I don't see anything shocking about it. There are much worse things on here I'm trying to get taken down.

Matt
Deputy Admin

Posted by McKenzie: 
You know, I keep seeing this thread go on and on with fetish, or indecent pics.....I think it has rubbed me wrong already.  Yes, there are photographers out there that do fetish, same way with the porn industry, it is out there, nothing we can really do about it.  BUT, have a site like Model Mayhem...they try to keep things from this site like those.  Anything adult related.  When I think of modeling, I think artistic, glamour, fashion, swimwear, lingerie, etc.  The last thing I think about is fetish and pornography.  Yeah some girls are willing to do that stuff for a quick buck, great for them....I guess.  If that is how they want to be perceived then so be it.  On the other hand, not all women are like that either which people need to remember.  In response to Herb's comments about violence against women, yes...it happens everyday.  Your actually getting a post from someone who has been in an abusive relationship, has been taken advantage of, and then after all of that, went into exotic dancing later to take care of two babies and go through college.  Yet, while modeling only going as far as implied.  Mainly, because of morality and values which is something less you see of everyday.  If your a father and you have a daughter, you would totally understand what I am saying...would you want your daughter doing that?  Going through those things?  Being in pictures like that?  How would it make you feel?  If you don't have a daughter then it doesn't matter what people say, and if you take pics like what we have discussed in this forum, it won't matter, you will continue to do what you want to do and that is fine.  But remember, Model Mayhem is about modeling...for once...a site strictly prohibiting the kind of crap llike adult related materials that are distasteful.  There is a place for everything, this isn't one of them. 

McKenzie   

I am the father of two daughters..both have been in modeling from print/film work for Gerber's food to brouchure work, but they were lucky I was the photographer. They are somewhat grown up now and I would have no problem in them modeling again, but I would make sure they are aware of things out there. We can only guilde our children in what is right and wrong.

Posted by Herb Way: 
Everyone seems to be afraid to address the issue of the voluntary paticipation of women in activities that contribute to the desensitization to violence against women.  Why do so many models, especially the twentysomethings, have in their portfolios images of bondage and implied violence?   

For the same reasons they've made Hot Topics and other similar retailers successful - by buying spiked collars and cuffs, "slave" medalions, "play" whips and phony chains.

Posted by McKenzie: 
You know, I keep seeing this thread go on and on with fetish, or indecent pics.....I think it has rubbed me wrong already.  Yes, there are photographers out there that do fetish, same way with the porn industry, it is out there, nothing we can really do about it.  BUT, have a site like Model Mayhem...they try to keep things from this site like those.  Anything adult related.  When I think of modeling, I think artistic, glamour, fashion, swimwear, lingerie, etc.  The last thing I think about is fetish and pornography.  Yeah some girls are willing to do that stuff for a quick buck, great for them....I guess.  If that is how they want to be perceived then so be it.  On the other hand, not all women are like that either which people need to remember.  In response to Herb's comments about violence against women, yes...it happens everyday.  Your actually getting a post from someone who has been in an abusive relationship, has been taken advantage of, and then after all of that, went into exotic dancing later to take care of two babies and go through college.  Yet, while modeling only going as far as implied.  Mainly, because of morality and values which is something less you see of everyday.  If your a father and you have a daughter, you would totally understand what I am saying...would you want your daughter doing that?  Going through those things?  Being in pictures like that?  How would it make you feel?  If you don't have a daughter then it doesn't matter what people say, and if you take pics like what we have discussed in this forum, it won't matter, you will continue to do what you want to do and that is fine.  But remember, Model Mayhem is about modeling...for once...a site strictly prohibiting the kind of crap llike adult related materials that are distasteful.  There is a place for everything, this isn't one of them. 

McKenzie   

Well said.

Posted by Moraxian: 
One of you asked "Why is there a market for this sort of photo?"  I have no idea why the "Damsel-in-distress" theme is popular, only that I know it has been popular for thousands of years.  I'm pretty sure most of you can recall Andromeda from Greek Mythology?  The pretty lady chained to the rock to be eaten by the sea creature (the villain/death trap) only to be rescued in the nick of time by Pereseus riding his Pegasus.  The stuff of legends to be sure.

This theme has been around for millenia, and we all grew up with it:  "Perils of Penelope Pitstop", "Perils of Pauline", "Bound", "Tie Me Up, Tie Me Down", etc.  There's lots of examples.

Are my photos dangerous.  I don't think so.  I think what's dangerous is the person who cannot separate fantasy from reality.  The reality of the situation is that these photos are fantasy images, of models/actresses (they're acting) portraying fictional characters in photostory/comic strips of debatable quality.  If you're flipping channels and you don't like what you see... change the channel.

M

The photographic quality leaves a lot to be desired and I think the subject matter is tasteless, but, despite my personal objection, I respect your right to do what you do with women of age who do it willingly.  I wish I could do a documentary that would include numerous interviews with the models responding to the question, "why?"

Posted by Moraxian: 
One more thing and I'll shut up on this, please do feel free to express your opinions on my photos.  Constructive criticism is always welcome, and despite the fact that I do the photos for my adult websites, I am always looking to improve the quality of my work.  I'm not expecting to be Ansel Adams, but ideas, thoughts, and hints are always appreciated.

Besides that your entire portfolio seems to be in the same pose? By the third or forth photo, I got the idea. More of the same just sort of wears the idea thin. If the photo doesn't add anything that the other photos don't have, then I'd question adding it. The train tracks was sort of neat though. Other than that, lighting. I'm seeing shadows everywhere and it all has the feel of flash photography. While I can see looking like it was made with a cheap point and shoot being part of the aesthetic, again, I think you could use soem more variety. For that matter you might just head the other way and use a Polaroid which has a distinct shape and feel, or go for something that obviously looks like flash photography in a dark space. Setting also seems standard. Everything looks like a motel room. Again, I got the idea by the third or forth picture. Some different settings might be better such as outdoors or delapidated buildings. And dirty things up a little. If you really want to make the photos look creepy, then spread some empty beer bottles around and otherwise make the place look lived in.

Posted by Viva Van Story: 
I've known this photographer for along time... please.. it's like Betty Page old photos.  It's harmless and I know models that have worked with the photographer.. this is silly!  Who is anyone to judge what's art or not.. Controversial images are apart of art today!  Let's face reality!

Controversial images are apart of art today!  Let's face reality!  OK NOW! This attitude FROSTS Chill right into a GLACIER!   If eating excrement were to suddenly become "art" or trendy or cool,,how many here would be the first to do it?  Accepting this stuff as art, is ludicrous!

Posted by Chill Factor: 

Posted by Viva Van Story: 
I've known this photographer for along time... please.. it's like Betty Page old photos.  It's harmless and I know models that have worked with the photographer.. this is silly!  Who is anyone to judge what's art or not.. Controversial images are apart of art today!  Let's face reality!

Controversial images are apart of art today!  Let's face reality!  OK NOW! This attitude FROSTS Chill right into a GLACIER!   If eating excrement were to suddenly become "art" or trendy or cool,,how many here would be the first to do it?  Accepting this stuff as art, is ludicrous!

You are not going to win here.. do you want someone to decide if your photos are art or not?  Pick up the book, Art Matters, how the culture wars changed america... you may not like someone's work but it doesn't make it not art to everyone. I'll let the glaciers cover me whole before I'll take that freedom away from my work.  Some of my favorite photographers/artists are controversial artists.  If the photographer used a model dressed up like Betty Page or Tempest Storm all tied up and gaged - people would have loved it.. I know because I do them and my fans LOVE them.. they are funny and cute and they are all acting and playing.. just like in that photographers portfolio.. so he needs some help on his photography tech stuff.. it's all about trying things out and enjoying the learning experience.  Who are we to decide his subject material? If you are going to be an opened minded individual you should think about this a little more before responding again.   

Posted by Marc17: 

Besides that your entire portfolio seems to be in the same pose? By the third or forth photo, I got the idea. More of the same just sort of wears the idea thin. If the photo doesn't add anything that the other photos don't have, then I'd question adding it. The train tracks was sort of neat though. Other than that, lighting. I'm seeing shadows everywhere and it all has the feel of flash photography. While I can see looking like it was made with a cheap point and shoot being part of the aesthetic, again, I think you could use soem more variety. For that matter you might just head the other way and use a Polaroid which has a distinct shape and feel, or go for something that obviously looks like flash photography in a dark space. Setting also seems standard. Everything looks like a motel room. Again, I got the idea by the third or forth picture. Some different settings might be better such as outdoors or delapidated buildings. And dirty things up a little. If you really want to make the photos look creepy, then spread some empty beer bottles around and otherwise make the place look lived in.

I do get into ruts, don't I?  Same pose, same room, different lady...  Hopefully that the loss of use of the guest bedroom in the house will remedy that!   

I do like your idea of making it lived in... when I use the studio the next time (like when I took the photos of Julie Simone (the lady with the red tape on her mouth...).  I'll ask the guy who owns it to not toss any of his bottles for a week before the shoot... 

Thanks!

Posted by Chill Factor: 
You obviously have not read this entire thread.Shooting adult women who consent to what a photographer's requests are ,is one thing. Displaying images of young women ( some of whom appear to be underage) 

I'll reiterate.  For all of the women I have photographed, I have proof of their age on file, and I have signed releases that everyone has entered into the shoot willingly.  All of this is in compliance with US Code 2257. 

I have a hunch I know which ladies are being referred to:  Isobel Wren is 23, Dee-Dee is 25, Christina Lenore is 23 and Josephine is 20.  And I do have proof of all this (and no, I am not sharing it here...)

Posted by Moraxian: 

Thanks!

If I was you, I'd also diversify. I don't see how you can be running a "Perils of Pauline" site and not have a conveyor belt/circular saw shot or the girl head above the boiling cauldron. I'm not sure what your customer's tastes are but it seems you have two different routes to go. You could do typical bondage stuff which would require better lighting and more artistic of shots. There are entire books on erotic photography and how to do lighting for such. You might also look into better rope and check the S&M scene for somebody who can tie some of the more elaborate Japanese style knotwork. You could also go for creepy and try and make photos that look like the real thing. Right now you seem to be stuck in the middle with the disadvantages of both and none of the advantages.

Posted by Viva Van Story: 

Posted by Chill Factor: 

Posted by Viva Van Story: 
I've known this photographer for along time... please.. it's like Betty Page old photos.  It's harmless and I know models that have worked with the photographer.. this is silly!  Who is anyone to judge what's art or not.. Controversial images are apart of art today!  Let's face reality!

Controversial images are apart of art today!  Let's face reality!  OK NOW! This attitude FROSTS Chill right into a GLACIER!   If eating excrement were to suddenly become "art" or trendy or cool,,how many here would be the first to do it?  Accepting this stuff as art, is ludicrous!

You are not going to win here.. do you want someone to decide if your photos are art or not?  Pick up the book, Art Matters, how the culture wars changed america... you may not like someone's work but it doesn't make it not art to everyone. I'll let the glaciers cover me whole before I'll take that freedom away from my work.  Some of my favorite photographers/artists are controversial artists.  If the photographer used a model dressed up like Betty Page or Tempest Storm all tied up and gaged - people would have loved it.. I know because I do them and my fans LOVE them.. they are funny and cute and they are all acting and playing.. just like in that photographers portfolio.. so he needs some help on his photography tech stuff.. it's all about trying things out and enjoying the learning experience.  Who are we to decide his subject material? If you are going to be an opened minded individual you should think about this a little more before responding again.   

Here I go defending a fetish.........

I`m not too sure I can give my opinion on the photographer`s images in question, but I can surely add my opinion on the "damsel in distress" photography

This as it`s been said before has been part of many many cultures as a form of fetish for well hundreds if not thousands of years, but in AMERICAN POP CULTURE we seem to have forgotten the "Perils Of Pauline" in the silent film days of the poor girl who`s captured by the bad guy and saved by the good guy.....this whole "idea" fueled the fetish even more, and how many SPY movies were made in the 1940`s were the girl or guy`s were captured by the Nazi and Japanese agents and tied up.....?

Popular American culture seems to LOVE the  PRUDE and PROPER 1950`s where everything was clean and chrome and happy familles and rock n roll......well it was`nt all happy and sun shining there was a "dark side" to the 1950`s and this included bondage photography

One of the most famous models of this era was a plain Jane but pretty country gal from Tennessee......her name was Bettie Page

Bettie Page was by far the TOP CHEESECAKE/PINUP MEN`S MAGAZINE model in the USA 1956-1960 (it was only 4 years but the changed the underground fetish culture scene forever)
Needless to say the US SUPREME COURT and the FEDS in the prudish times made Irving Klaw DESTROY thousands of negatives of Bettie and many other girls who worked in these bondage fetish photoshoots and movies for him in NYC
(these styles of photos and light film loops are now considered priceless and are ACCEPTED into American popular culture as much as Marilyn Monroe, tommy guns, a woman`s thigh and a garter belts and dead policemen`s images in modern films......that has to do with censorship a totally different story, but it`s made to make a point)

I see nothing WRONG with bondage photography if it`s shot in a NON SEXUAL way and that there`s NO ILLEGAL practices done during the making of it

Now mind you there`s some photographers and companies who make this fetish into a full blown sexual thing and they are nothing but sleazy, cheap pornographer sell out bastards who manipulate the models or situations into a money making scheme....that`s NOT art and well doesn`t fall into my opinion of what the fetish really is

I shoot RETRO FETISH BONDAGE photography as an art form, more time goes into the styles and the clothes and the whole situation then just throwing a girl down someplace and tying her up............really to each his own here, but I think SLAMMING the fetish is like people SLAMMING homosexual men or lesbian women for their lifestyle and as we have grown out of that PRUDISH 1950`s way of thinking here I think everyone should be given a chance and a way of expressing themselves in an artistic way of thinking


If anyone finds that there`s TOO many ADULT styled pix on this site BRING it to TY`s attention.........and maybe here`s an even BETTER suggestion, just have the ADULT models and photographer`s into their OWN group like a possible members only area where the work of NON ADULT shooters and models won`t interact/clash  with ADULT shooters and models..........I say SPLIT THEM UP....THAT`S THE FINE ART WAY OF DOING IT THEN EVERYONE`S HAPPY

The OMP is TRASH while it`s full of PORN and bullshit, but that`s while no one cared about it, I can see the FOCUS of this thread was about the "style" of photography being here, but after seeing people BASH the fetish I had to say something, while bashing something while you HATE it or don`t understand it is`nt fair, I HATE PORN, but I don`t bash the people who do it or make it, I too think that their art should be separate from other artists who feel the same way I do

Now I hope that made some sense and hopefully people will understand that not all BONDAGE photography is TRASH and BAD it`s actually American culture

Tom

PS:(I know what it feels to be bashed about something....I got it once for a "Lolita" photo I did with a 19 year old model, who was acting out the movie role, but sick minds twist art into things too sometimes if the model in question looks 16 that`s a coincidence of the art.....if she is 16 and what she`s doing is illegal that`s JAIL TIME for the photographer PLAIN AND SIMPLE)

Posted by Chill Factor: 
(some of whom appear to be underage) who are giving the impression of being tortured AGAINST their consent is quite another.

If it's about appearance then we have to ban Law and Order from TV. They have the appearance of killing people 3 times a night and more on weekends ... and those people who are getting killed appear to be having it done to them against their will. Every movie ever made gives the appearance of things being other than they really are.

But, I think your right, though. We should have some serious censors. I think we should put bras on cows and jock straps on bulls. I think we shold wrap a towel around the statue of David. And covering the breasts on the statue of Justice in front of the Supreme Court ain't the craziest idea I've ever heard. Believe me, it's not the craziest.

I think we shold appoint you to take responsibility for where our culture is going. I think that's a marvelous idea. There were people with that job in Hitler's Germany and in Stalin's Russia. They sure got the culture back on track. There are people in China TODAY with that kind of job. They are paid to root out anything that appears to be out of line from the "norm". There are Mullah's all over the Middle East who are guarding the morals and culture of the area.

I think you'd fit right in.

Posted by Chill Factor: 
There is a market for snuff films too,, does that mean it's a good idea?

I think snuff films (urban legned - have you ever seen one? Do you know anyone who's ever seen one? Do you know anyone who knows anyone who's actually seen one?) are against the law. Killing people is against the law. Making films of the killing of people for entertainment pourposes is against the law .. unless of course we're talking about one of those "Face of death" videos that were so popular a number of years ago. Depicting bondage is NOT against the law. Bondage is not against the law between consenting adults. Perhaps if you rationally compared apples with apples ... ? Just a thought ...

Posted by theda: 
My... my...

First of all, Chill Factor, let me just remind you that while so far I know of no one eating excrement and calling it art offhand,...

Divine for one. G.G. Allin. I'm pretty sure that Genisis P'Orridge did it while doing some of the COUM performance art. That doesn't even bring up scat fetish "art".

Posted by Chill Factor: 
again ill say,, even if what this person is doing is legitemate,,why feed the pervs with their choice of entertainment?

Perhaps you're unaware of the handcuffs you can buy from Fredrick's of Hollywood? Shall we shut them down? Your next door neighbor loves it when her hubby ties her up in their love play. Are they pervs?

Maybe we should lock everyone up who's not like you. Now THAT would solve the problem!

Posted by Joe Kozlowski: 

Posted by Chill Factor: 
again ill say,, even if what this person is doing is legitemate,,why feed the pervs with their choice of entertainment?

Perhaps you're unaware of the handcuffs you can buy from Fredrick's of Hollywood? Shall we shut them down? Your next door neighbor loves it when her hubby ties her up in their love play. Are they pervs?

Maybe we should lock everyone up who's not like you. Now THAT would solve the problem!

Don't forget Lock up Marilyn Manson.. it's all his fault!

Posted by Rich Mohr: 
I may be missing the point in this thread but I don't really see anything pleasing to my eye when images depict women in degrading or demoralizing scenes. I'd much rather see a woman in a position of strength in an image then weakness. But this is just my opinion and I'm sure others view things differently...

Neither do I and I have apparently stepped on some toes Rich by voicing my conscience. They want to silence it,,all the while implying in different ways that I don't have a right to HAVE an opinion about not seeing people ( REAL OR OTHERWISE) being tortured. Justifying it as "part of the industry" and so many people do it blah blah blah. Such fake intellecutal elitism,,, GAG!

Posted by Chill Factor: 
wow you guys are all FOR freedom of expression UNTIL someone disagrees with ya! HYPOCRITES d;.)

I must have missed the part where anyone besides you (and maybe a couple of others on your side) advocated censorship. Please point it out to me. As far as I can tell, everyone thinks you have as much right to mouth off as the next guy.

Posted by theda: 

Posted by Chill Factor: 
wow you guys are all FOR freedom of expression UNTIL someone disagrees with ya! HYPOCRITES d;.)

I must have missed the part where anyone besides you (and maybe a couple of others on your side) advocated censorship. Please point it out to me. As far as I can tell, everyone thinks you have as much right to mouth off as the next guy.

Actually I do live in the US so yes I can mouth off just as much as the next guy. I have stepped on some toes,,oh well.It's not the first time and it certainly will not be the last. I am voicing my conscience on this. People rarely like to hear it. Funny thing though, for some reason it just doesn't stop working.

Posted by KoolGirlieStuff: 

Posted by Viva Van Story: 

Posted by Chill Factor: 

Posted by Viva Van Story: 
I've known this photographer for along time... please.. it's like Betty Page old photos.  It's harmless and I know models that have worked with the photographer.. this is silly!  Who is anyone to judge what's art or not.. Controversial images are apart of art today!  Let's face reality!

Controversial images are apart of art today!  Let's face reality!  OK NOW! This attitude FROSTS Chill right into a GLACIER!   If eating excrement were to suddenly become "art" or trendy or cool,,how many here would be the first to do it?  Accepting this stuff as art, is ludicrous!

You are not going to win here.. do you want someone to decide if your photos are art or not?  Pick up the book, Art Matters, how the culture wars changed america... you may not like someone's work but it doesn't make it not art to everyone. I'll let the glaciers cover me whole before I'll take that freedom away from my work.  Some of my favorite photographers/artists are controversial artists.  If the photographer used a model dressed up like Betty Page or Tempest Storm all tied up and gaged - people would have loved it.. I know because I do them and my fans LOVE them.. they are funny and cute and they are all acting and playing.. just like in that photographers portfolio.. so he needs some help on his photography tech stuff.. it's all about trying things out and enjoying the learning experience.  Who are we to decide his subject material? If you are going to be an opened minded individual you should think about this a little more before responding again.   

Here I go defending a fetish.........

I`m not too sure I can give my opinion on the photographer`s images in question, but I can surely add my opinion on the "damsel in distress" photography

This as it`s been said before has been part of many many cultures as a form of fetish for well hundreds if not thousands of years, but in AMERICAN POP CULTURE we seem to have forgotten the "Perils Of Pauline" in the silent film days of the poor girl who`s captured by the bad guy and saved by the good guy.....this whole "idea" fueled the fetish even more, and how many SPY movies were made in the 1940`s were the girl or guy`s were captured by the Nazi and Japanese agents and tied up.....?

Popular American culture seems to LOVE the  PRUDE and PROPER 1950`s where everything was clean and chrome and happy familles and rock n roll......well it was`nt all happy and sun shining there was a "dark side" to the 1950`s and this included bondage photography

One of the most famous models of this era was a plain Jane but pretty country gal from Tennessee......her name was Bettie Page

Bettie Page was by far the TOP CHEESECAKE/PINUP MEN`S MAGAZINE model in the USA 1956-1960 (it was only 4 years but the changed the underground fetish culture scene forever)
Needless to say the US SUPREME COURT and the FEDS in the prudish times made Irving Klaw DESTROY thousands of negatives of Bettie and many other girls who worked in these bondage fetish photoshoots and movies for him in NYC
(these styles of photos and light film loops are now considered priceless and are ACCEPTED into American popular culture as much as Marilyn Monroe, tommy guns, a woman`s thigh and a garter belts and dead policemen`s images in modern films......that has to do with censorship a totally different story, but it`s made to make a point)

I see nothing WRONG with bondage photography if it`s shot in a NON SEXUAL way and that there`s NO ILLEGAL practices done during the making of it

Now mind you there`s some photographers and companies who make this fetish into a full blown sexual thing and they are nothing but sleazy, cheap pornographer sell out bastards who manipulate the models or situations into a money making sceme......that`s NOT art and well doesn`t fall into my opinion of what the fetish really is

I shoot RETRO FETISH BONDAGE photography as an art form, more time goes into the styles and the clothes and the whole situation then just throwing a girl down someplace and tying her up............really to each his own here, but I think SLAMMING the fetish is like people SLAMMING homosexual men or lesbian women for their lifestyle and as we have grown out of that PRUDISH 1950`s way of thinking here I think everyone should be given a chance and a way of expressing themselves in an artistic way of thinking


If anyone finds that there`s TOO many ADULT styled pix on this site BRING it to TY`s attention.........and maybe here`s an even BETTER suggestion, just have the ADULT models and photographer`s into their OWN group like a possible members only area where the work of NON ADULT shooters and models won`t interact/clash  with ADULT shooters and models..........I say SPLIT THEM UP....THAT`S THE FINE ART WAY OF DOING IT THEN EVERYONE`S HAPPY

The OMP is TRASH while it`s full of PORN and bullshit, but that`s while no one cared about it, I can see the FOCUS of this thread was about the "style" of photography being here, but after seeing people BASH the fetish I had to say something, while bashing something while you HATE it or don`t understand it is`nt fair, I HATE PORN, but I don`t bash the people who do it or make it, I too think that their art should be separate from other artists who feel the same way I do

Now I hope that made some sense and hopefully people will understand that not all BONDAGE photography is TRASH and BAD it`s actually American culture

Tom

PS:(I know what it feels to be bashed about something....I got it once for a "Lolita" photo I did with a 19 year old model, who was acting out the movie role, but sick minds twist art into things too sometimes if the model in question looks 16 that`s a coincidence of the art.....if she is 16 and what she`s doing is illegal that`s JAIL TIME for the photographer PLAIN AND SIMPLE)

And this is why I love you..  smart as a whip!