Sian Louise wrote:
And the thing about statistics - the woman was right. Do not trust them.

I love this.

It's OK to use statistics that support your particular agenda, but if someone uses statistics that aren't what you want to hear, then they should not be trusted.

I don't think anyone would argue that government statistics are 100% accurate.  But if you aren't going to use them as the best available information (note:  not perfect information) you have an obligation to say what source you are going to use, and why it is more accurate.  If you fail to do that, you forfeit any right to make statements about statistics at all.

No, the government data isn't perfect.  But it's the best we have, until proven otherwise.

For instance, you can't claim that "more whites are on welfare" unless there is a source for that claim.  If there is such a source, either it is reliable or it is not.  So what's the source, and why shouldn't we believe other things from the same source?

Sian Louise wrote:
neither of you are wrong. you are using a different way of measuring.

1/10 black people is one person - 10%
5/50 white people is 5 people - 10%

I hope that clarifies.

Uh, yes.  We knew that.  Both Nedjetti and I were careful to use the proper terms in our discussions.  She used absolute numbers, I used percentages.  That should be clear to any reader.  But it's good that you figured it out.

Nedjetti's statement about "more whites" is deliberately chosen to NOT consider the fact that the number of whites in the US is much greater than the number of blacks.  She did not want to put the numbers into percentage terms, because it didn't support the case she was making.  As has often been pointed out, figures don't lie, but liars figure.

TXPhotog wrote:
It might be interesting to compare the percentages of Caucasian and African American photographers on MM as well, to see if anything might suggest itself in terms of opportunities.  But the browse function does not allow for that kind of search.

With these numbers you would also be able to tell the obvious. Most of the time photographers still to models of the same race as them...... and I have noticed models do the same. I once ran across a photographer who mentioned he had always wanted to work with me but he didnt think I would, mainly because most of the time when he contacts African American models they never respond. In some ways I feel like there is discrimination coming from both ends when this happens. If you limit yourself to race then you never know the oppurtunites that you can and will miss.

Sian Louise wrote:
you have taken a quote out of context of what i was saying. you are aware that i was not saying you are wrong. i was mainly pointing out that neither was she.

Not at all.  Nobody said she was wrong.  I simply pointed out another form of the statistics that give a very different impression, using the same raw data.  Apparently you were not able to understand that.

TXPhotog wrote:

Not at all.  Nobody said she was wrong.  I simply pointed out another form of the statistics that give a very different impression, using the same raw data.  Apparently you were not able to understand that.

apparantly you are looking for a debate on whether i am right or wrong. i'm not interested in that. if you want to fault my grammer or my reading do it. if you want to fault my math get a life.

Sian Louise wrote:
i studied sociology and statistic and lots of pure math. i was making a point about over reliance on one form of evidence.

If so, the point was badly made.  That point would have required reference to alternatives, or a statement of what to do about imperfect data, or a statement about the limits to which data can be put.  Just as important, it would include a statement about the rational ways in which data can be used, even though it is known not to be imperfect.  You didn't do any of that.  All you did was discount the validity of one source.

Let me give you an example:

Using the government statistics, the percentage of African-Americans dependent on welfare is about five times the percentage of Caucasians.  You may well be able to say that the data is imperfect (of course it is).  But the next step is to ask if the degree to which it is imperfect is sufficient to overwhelm the conclusion being drawn.

That is, would you claim that the government statistics are so imperfect that, in fact, it is not true that the percentage of African Americans dependent on welfare is much greater than the percentage of Caucasians?

You see, if you want to discuss the quality of statistics, you need to discuss the real impact of errors, and you did not do that.  In many cases (this one, for instance) errors are not sufficient to invalidate the basic point being made.  But you failed to notify your reader of that.

I would expect someone who has your educational background to do better.

Sian Louise wrote:
apparantly you are looking for a debate on whether i am right or wrong. i'm not interested in that.

No, you were interested in creating a debate (or an impression) that I had called Nedjetti wrong, when in fact I did not.  Nowhere did I suggest that she was wrong in what she said - just that using correct data could give a very different impression than the same data presented differently.

Sian Louise wrote:

apparantly you are looking for a debate on whether i am right or wrong. i'm not interested in that. if you want to fault my grammer or my reading do it. if you want to fault my math get a life.

your figure is FINE...and so is your math skillz!!!

TXPhotog wrote:
I would expect someone who has your educational background to do better.

i would expect someone who claims to be an artist or a professional or whatever it is photographers on here are trying to be - well i'd expect you to be less judgemental.

TXPhotog wrote:
No, you were interested in creating a debate (or an impression) that I had called Nedjetti wrong, when in fact I did not.  Nowhere did I suggest that she was wrong in what she said - just that using correct data could give a very different impression than the same data presented differently.

you did it again - "shes not wrong....blah blah... using correct data... smale date differently"

surely correct/incorrect - wrong/right - same/different.

'm sorry go on give me a lesson in english? I'm confuzzled now!

Hair by Nedjetti wrote:

and you know why the media places 'sassy' sistahs, to show the NEGATIVE image of the African Diaspora, that's why, it's not a secret that there has only been ONE Cosby show and Different World show whereas all the other AA shows geered to represent the dispiction of African-Americans has been STEROTYPICAL !!!!!!

I'm African-american and I went out for a reality show for a WELL known company and I was told I wasn't GHETTO enough (in so many words) during our conversation, they met me, LOVED my work, LOVED my energy, blah blah blah, but they said they were looking for 'female' hair artists (oh, the reality show was about hair artists coming together and voicing their opinion and vision as a group) who had a Queens, NEW YORK  accent (whatever that means)....

funny thing, I was raised in Queens and when I told her that, she gagged b/c she realize her racist comment came to light and she couldn't fabicate a reason why I wasn't being chosen.

in other words, it's all in the plan for the media to show AA's in a negative light, not all AA's are from the Ghetto, nor do we us the N** word, nor do we turn our neck in rotation when making a point, nor do we, well you get the picture...

in other words b/c I'm an EDUCATED, ARTICULATE and TALENTED AA hair artist, I wasn't chosen b/c we all know when you're on tv, you've highly influential to those watching you at home and to have me on TV would inspire and uplift little AA girls/boys to conduct themselves in a positive light now wouldn't it *wink

Nedjetti

Sian Louise wrote:
i would expect someone who claims to be an artist or a professional or whatever it is photographers on here are trying to be - well i'd expect you to be less judgemental.

Then I guess you would be wrong, huh?

When you come into a conversation and make statements about data, you can expect your statements to be judged.  You don't get a free pass.  And your statements were sorely lacking, for reasons I have pointed out.  Let's review:

Sian Louise wrote:
And the thing about statistics - the woman was right. Do not trust them. Goverment census is often reliable but many times there are more people living in a house then are registered there. There are imigrants and large families that appear to be smaller then they are.

1.  This is America, not Britain.  People are not "registered" here, and the census does not rely on registration.  The data collection techniques are quite different.

2.  What is the alternative to trusting government numbers?  You leave your readers with no sense that anything at all can be trusted.  That is hardly responsible.

3.  You do not admit that, even though statistics cannot "be trusted", they can still be useful.

Why in the world would you think you could make a statement like that and not have someone take issue with it?  What gives you the right to speak without being contradicted?

Sharon Gutowski wrote:
Hey.

A lot of people will probalby tell you that this has been discussed and you should just read the old threads, but I think racism is always worth discussing.

It is my opinion that racism exists in society and therefore it will exist here, too.  For me, the problem is figuring out why.  I think the biggest problem is the media because it doesn't portray Black people as being as attractive as white.  There are exceptions, but I think if we are honest there is a heavy beauty-bias towards white people. 

I'm sure there are other complex reasons, I'm just not sure I understand them just yet.  What is your opinion?  You must have one or you wouldn't have started this thread ;-)

Sharon

Actually the media plays a big role in racism too. Taking and using one example to show that the media isn't racist doesn't validate that it doesn't exist. Racism and how people as individual, groups or in the system can be used in many ways by using different tactics. The question is can you see it? and if you see it, how do you deal with it?

Sian Louise wrote:
'm sorry go on give me a lesson in english? I'm confuzzled now!

That has been apparent from the outset.

She used correct data.  I used correct data.  The way they were presented gave very different impressions, even though both were correct.  How hard is that to understand?

Katisha H wrote:
Well at any rate I think we can all agree that the modeling industry is not an "equal opportunity employer".  It discriminates against race, sex, height, and weight.  In a business built on appearances It is always going to be there.

while that's true, that isn't Toney's point.

Sian Louise wrote:
this is not america this is the internet. i'll go grab a spell check next time.

The discussion of welfare was a discussion of the American welfare system, not that of Britain.  Consequently, American statistics and census procedures are what is at issue, not those of Britain, Croatia or Nigeria.

TXPhotog wrote:

The discussion of welfare was a discussion of the American welfare system, not that of Britain.  Consequently, American statistics and census procedures are what is at issue, not those of Britain, Croatia or Nigeria.

yes but back to the OP - is Model Mayhem racist... let me guess you're claiming that only includes americans?

Sian Louise wrote:
yes but back to the OP - is Model Mayhem racist... let me guess you're claiming that only includes americans?

I'm claiming that statistics about who is on welfare are about America.  Your claim supporting hers that statistics cannot be trusted was based on a statement about America.

I have no idea what percentage of MM members are on welfare, and MM membership was irrelevant to the point she and I were making.  She chose to enlarge the discussion beyond the boundaries of MM.

Jennifer Hicklen wrote:
I am not sure how often this is viewed this way but I have been told by a couple of white photographers that the reason they do not take a shooting interest in models of color is because there is not a need for them in the market.

I have no doubt that there are photographers who believe that.  I also don't doubt that there are some segments of the market for which it may be substantially true.  However, in the larger professional modeling market it is not true, despite the fact that people seem to want to believe it.

BCG wrote:
can i use this quote in later conversations?!?

Go pose some girl in an unflattering position then take a picture of it.

Sian Louise wrote:
yes but back to the OP - is Model Mayhem racist... let me guess you're claiming that only includes americans?

Since you have a background in statistics . . .

Only 16 members of MM are black female models in the UK.  That's 2.3% of all UK female MM models.  Given that the sample size is so small, there is no way to make meaningful statements about statistics, race and MM membership for the UK.  The margin of error overwhelms the data.

Electra T wrote:

Go pose some girl in an unflattering position then take a picture of it.

stevie wonder could take a great photo of the gal in question...and i have recieved MANY compliments on her images and maybe if you find a qualified shooter yourself, your standards will change...i wish you luck in your endevours.

TXPhotog wrote:

Since you have a background in statistics . . .

Only 16 members of MM are black female models in the UK.  That's 2.3% of all UK female MM models.  Given that the sample size is so small, there is no way to make meaningful statements about statistics, race and MM membership for the UK.  The margin of error overwhelms the data.

this is the internet not the world. try the same trick on omp or actualy on net model... you'll find that lots of black models in the uk exist but they just dont use the internet. i know personally 2 models that tried the internet route but hated it as they suffered racism.. they went back to the real world stuff. thats not data or evidence its he said she said. feel free to factor in margin of error.

alicia wrote:
I think that a photographer will shoot whoever they want if they think they have the talent, no matter the color. I have shoot with 5 people from this site and they were white photographers.
Some whites may only want to shoot whites and some black photographers may only shoot black models...........they just go for what they like! Not saying they don't like the other race.

A*G*

not always true. some will not shoot you based soleloy on color, even in the business, market or not, some will not. Reality is real. While it is a business thing too, racism is still a big part of this business just like in most businesses.

it kind of remind me of the days way before most of us on this forums exist. There was a time that 'black' dollars weren't good enough because the black dollar value was looked as a skin color. But when the economy and times took a turn for the worst, suddenly the black dollars become valuable. Did this mean that with the acknowledgement of black dollars suddenly made blacks important? No. It's just the commodity is what blacks important. But the view and perception didn't change feelings at all. This is no more different in the modeling world. Just ask many professional and well established models of color and ethnic clothing designers. Many will tell you different about what's going on behind the scenes. It's not surpirsing to me at all.

I've read articles on the racism in the porn business years ago. Hell if you can't get over racism while you are fucking on film because of fears, then you know that racism exist. But here's the killer part, they'll make interracial sex movies to satisfy that market despite those feelings. Money, money, money. But truth, truth, truth, of felings, feelngs, feelings are still there, there, there.

Sian Louise wrote:

this is the internet not the world. try the same trick on omp or actualy on net model... you'll find that lots of black models in the uk exist but they just dont use the internet. i know personally 2 models that tried the internet route but hated it as they suffered racism.. they went back to the real world stuff. thats not data or evidence its he said she said. feel free to factor in margin of error.

you two are playing model mayhem numerical masterbation!!!

Sian Louise wrote:
this is the internet not the world.

This is MM, not "the internet".  The question relates to this site, not to others, and to experiences here, not elsewhere.

Tilden wrote:
Do you think more white models get shoots or jobs opposed to black models.  If so why? How can we change this view..if it exist.  Just wondering.

Of course racism exists on this site just as it exists in normal life, but hopefully things are getting better. I went to a high school that was 90% African American.  Did it bother me?  No, I loved it.  I didnt see it as being a black/white thing.  I saw everyone as just people.  We all had to go through the hardships of being teased by others and trying to make it through all the bulls**t that comes along with  school. All of us can be ignorant at times it doesnt matter what race you are, its based on the things you are taught by your parents and the experiences you have in life.  Just try not to let one bad experience reflect how you think about an entire group of people.  That was just one bad egg in the bunch.

BCG wrote:
you two are playing model mayhem numerical masterbation!!!

It's more fun when two play.  You ought to try it sometime.

BCG wrote:

stevie wonder could take a great photo of the gal in question...and i have recieved MANY compliments on her images and maybe if you find a qualified shooter yourself, your standards will change...i wish you luck in your endevours.

Stevie Wonder could, but you couldnt? That's just sad. I'm not trying to hijack this thread.


Anyway is there racism on MM? Sure. There is racism everywhere so why should this place be any different. I just find it kind of odd that the conversation seems to be soley about black models..what about the asians, hispanics do they face racism? I don't really think this question can be answered(to satisfy everyone) because we would have to ask every photog on this site and do you think there is one thats going to give an honest answer? I don't like shooting black, asian or hispanic models? This thread just like most heated threads on MM is a waste because there is no way to find a definitive answer that will make everyone happy. Some of you live in happy p.c land where all that matters is the skill of the model.

Melvin Moten Jr wrote:
Every time I approach a black model about shooting fetish, she feaks out, simple as that.  I have a long list of white models looking forward to working with me, so I don't think race is the issue so much as attitude.

difffrent lifestyls my man. While there are black women who do fetish, they are a minority. Black women and men for the majority lie different lifestyles and are raised different.

Many black women find fetish to be out there. while I have seen some fetish work that is good and plan on doing some high fashion fetish. I have seen some fetish stuff that is out there. Many black women feel that white women will do just about anything. I'm just quoting what I've heard.

Marta Photo wrote:
I like to photograph black women but in USA it is difficult to find black women with curly hair.

?

TXPhotog wrote:
1.  Nobody has any actual knowledge of how many shoots models get by class or race on MM.  Any statements about it reflect the bias of the person guessing, and little else.

Electra T wrote:
This thread just like most heated threads on MM is a waste because there is no way to find a definitive answer that will make everyone happy.

Yup.