Merlinpix wrote:
This is a first for me in 30+ years of shooting.
Booked a model  for a paying shoot from that other site, sent her the flight details < Jet Blue not a shlub airline>.
I have studio time booked, and I'm on my way to pick her up. I call her to see if she's landed, and find she never left  her home.
The excuse " I have it in my book for next week".
I could understand a local TFP screwup but a paying  gig with free airfare..geezeus!

Thank you for letting me vent
Paul

Oh, man, that sucks. That's just carelessness on the part of the model.

Christopher Ambler wrote:
So you're out the cost of the plane ticket and your studio and equipment rental?

One must presume that your contract covers this loss and you'll be sending her an invoice, right?

You did execute a written contract, right?

Nah I got the ticket credited less 30 buxs.
The studio owner  is a buddy so it was just a phone call and he credited the time.
The lighting equipment is  mine.
I paid the makeup person so I was out a few buxs.
Makes no sense to go after someone  who's broke to begin with.
I find it easier to spread the word about said 'model'  to  others interested in shooting her.

Paul

Steven Bigler wrote:
... and this is why we book real models from real agencies.....

Yes I do a lot of that too; but the genre I shoot the fresh face/body makes for the most sales. Frustrating to find an editor has 5 sets of that model on their desk.
So sites like MM, and the others  make a good place to find them.
Mind you I've been using internet models for approximately 10yrs..so my record is pretty good.

Paul

Steven Bigler wrote:
... and this is why we book real models from real agencies.....

I got a question for all of you who advocate the agency route. If that's the case, then why are you wasting your time here searching for models to shoot with?

John Jebbia wrote:
How many times do I gotta tell you people.. Book your plane tickets through Southwest!!! Even if the model doesn't get on the plane, Southwest will give you a credit. 100% Not a cash refund, mind you. But a full credit towards your next flight.. Which since I fly in so many models is good enough for me since I know I will use it.

wish they flew in oz, no matter i will not be here much longer anyway, leaving this dump they call the lucky country, LUCKY i got the money to leave, lol.

John Jebbia wrote:
How many times do I gotta tell you people.. Book your plane tickets through Southwest!!! Even if the model doesn't get on the plane, Southwest will give you a credit. 100% Not a cash refund, mind you. But a full credit towards your next flight.. Which since I fly in so many models is good enough for me since I know I will use it.

Are you guys really making that kind of scratch to be flying models in for your photo sessions and paying them on top of that?

I'm serious.

Craig Thomson wrote:
Are you guys really making that kind of scratch to be flying models in for your photo sessions and paying them on top of that?

I'm serious.

Yes. But thankfully, I've not had to, because there's plenty of talent here between Portland and Vancouver, BC.

But I'd NEVER arrange travel without a contract in place. Never.

Craig Thomson wrote:
Are you guys really making that kind of scratch to be flying models in for your photo sessions and paying them on top of that?

I'm serious.

Honestly, when I fly in a model it is usually split between 2-3 photographers. So, it really isn't all that expensive. Most my share has been thus far has been $75.. That ain't gonna break me. And yes, I make enough off of the product to justify it.

daxinho wrote:
Is odd that you would not call her the day before to make sure that she is alive.. and safe and all that...

wow...

Actually I did email her the day before. I didn't get a response, but as I've said before: I've been using internet models for 10yrs without a problem.
There's really no need  if the person  is a responsible human being.
She had her flight#'s and times, and made a commitment to shoot.
That's usually all it takes. Unfortunately some folks have no sense of  responsibility.

Paul

Merlinpix wrote:
Actually I did email her the day before. I didn't get a response, but as I've said before: I've been using internet models for 10yrs without a problem.
There's really no need  if the person  is a responsible human being.
She had her flight#'s and times, and made a commitment to shoot.
That's usually all it takes. Unfortunately some folks have no sense of  responsibility.

Paul

Go with Southwest next time and you won't have to eat a $30 service charge.

Craig Thomson wrote:
Are you guys really making that kind of scratch to be flying models in for your photo sessions and paying them on top of that?

I'm serious.

Christopher Ambler wrote:
Yes. But thankfully, I've not had to, because there's plenty of talent here between Portland and Vancouver, BC.

But I'd NEVER arrange travel without a contract in place. Never.

That's what I was thinking. I'd even be comfortable with requiring 50% deposit like I did on auto repairs.

Thanks for the answer.

John Jebbia wrote:

Honestly, when I fly in a model it is usually split between 2-3 photographers. So, it really isn't all that expensive. Most my share has been thus far has been $75.. That ain't gonna break me. And yes, I make enough off of the product to justify it.

So you fly a model in to shoot with a couple of other photographers and she gets her hourly rate the whole time she's shooting with all of you?

Flight = $
Rate x time = $
hotel? = $

and you only pay $75?

I'm lost I think...

Craig Thomson wrote:
So you fly a model in to shoot with a couple of other photographers and she gets her hourly rate the whole time she's shooting with all of you?

Flight = $
Rate x time = $
hotel? = $

and you only pay $75?

I'm lost I think...

$75 for the flight. Most of the time they use my spare room. And I rarely pay a model's stated rate. Usually its a set fee. Not an hourly rate. If they insist on a hotel, then that is factored in. But so far I haven't had to get a hotel room.

Craig Thomson wrote:
Are you guys really making that kind of scratch to be flying models in for your photo sessions and paying them on top of that?

I'm serious.

Yes Craig, some of us do.  I shoot  mostly for men's magazines, and bondage and fetish publications, generally they pay well. That, and the fact I have a photography business I can write off a lot of the expenses come tax time.
In reality it's  not all that much money: the right model/shoot will yield at least 4 to 6 times what I laid out.
I never bother with TFP unless it's for a friend.
I've had models shoot just for the value of being published.
Some models  will shoot for free if you pay their  gas, or airfare, and hotel for a few days  so they can shoot with others in the area.

Paul

John Jebbia wrote:

Go with Southwest next time and you won't have to eat a $30 service charge.

John, Southwest didn't go where she was.

Paul

Doug Olsen Photography wrote:
I asked this a few weeks ago when I got stood up, but where is a site that we can see the models who have not been responsible so this doesn't keep repeating with the same models? And if there isn't a site, should we make one?

i would love to list my experiences somewhere  on the net , names, etc, but even after all this crap its just not right,  i did it once and regretted it. the crazy thing is more often than not now a model no shows, even on high paying shoots and tearsheets , and no its not just to me either, one mate of mine booked 5 models ,hotel room, hire car and tickets in to a california town, and not 1 model showed, not even 1.

Craig Thomson wrote:
Are you guys really making that kind of scratch to be flying models in for your photo sessions and paying them on top of that?

I'm serious.

Merlinpix wrote:
Yes Craig, some of us do.

I am shooting a model right now I brought in from Kansas.  I am flying another in from Boston next week.

When I do webwork, I look for the right model for the right job.  So many of the girls in L.A. are overexposed so I go wherever I have to to get new talent.

The cost is minimal if the site makes money.

Doug Mackay    DMP wrote:
i would love to list my experiences somewhere  on the net , names, etc, but even after all this crap its just not right,  i did it once and regretted it. the crazy thing is more often than not now a model no shows, even on high paying shoots and tearsheets , and no its not just to me either, one mate of mine booked 5 models ,hotel room, hire car and tickets in to a california town, and not 1 model showed, not even 1.

http://theindustryblacklist.com/

Alan from Aavian Prod wrote:

Craig Thomson wrote:
Are you guys really making that kind of scratch to be flying models in for your photo sessions and paying them on top of that?

I'm serious.

I am shooting a model right now I brought in from Kansas.  I am flying another in from Boston next week.

When I do webwork, I look for the right model for the right job.  So many of the girls in L.A. are overexposed so I go wherever I have to to get new talent.

The cost is minimal if the site makes money.

What site?

Craig Thomson wrote:
What site?

I can assure you, Craig. Those of us who are flying models in are not doing it just because we have money to burn. There's a method to our madness.

daxinho wrote:
Is odd that you would not call her the day before to make sure that she is alive.. and safe and all that...

wow...

LOL, what i find odd is that you would even have to.... its a paying gig,.... with a prepaid airfare...on everyones calendar as the same date.... thus the risk of the internet modeling game

John Jebbia wrote:

I can assure you, Craig. Those of us who are flying models in are not doing it just because we have money to burn. There's a method to our madness.

Am I really that blind that I can't see what you’re talking about?

John Jebbia wrote:
I got a question for all of you who advocate the agency route. If that's the case, then why are you wasting your time here searching for models to shoot with?

Because there can be some restrictions in shooting agency models, but for paying jobs, you cannot rely on people with no credibility.  Bigler is here to probably look for that one in a few thousands that has the look he wants, who is unsigned and understands the real value of shooting with someone his caliber.

And, of course, very obviously, he comes to give people shxt. 

cathedral wrote:
thats lame. Just like my mom would say when some one does stupid things " hope immigration gets her"

Uhmmm... from a peace loving hippie Canadian.. am I the only one who thinks this is a little offensive?

Doug Olsen Photography wrote:
I asked this a few weeks ago when I got stood up, but where is a site that we can see the models who have not been responsible so this doesn't keep repeating with the same models? And if there isn't a site, should we make one?

there was one in the U.K noshow.co.uk or something similar - the photographer who started it ended up shutting the site down after one of the models featured on it (who obvioulsy had something about her other then a pretty face) threatened to sue his ass. Libel and all that jazz. (wasn't me i hasten to add).

lll wrote:

Because there can be some restrictions in shooting agency models, but for paying jobs, you cannot rely on people with no credibility.  Bigler is here to probably look for that one in a few thousands that has the look he wants, who is unsigned and understands the real value of shooting with someone his caliber.

And, of course, very obviously, he comes to give people shxt. 

Since when is it okay to give anyone a hard time intentionally? Sounds kind of sad to me.

Steven Bigler wrote:
... and this is why we book real models from real agencies.....

Well... not all models are like that, I'm not!

Its not a choice that I can't be in agency.... i'm too short.

But, man... that really sucks... she's pretty stupid to miss that opportunity.  And plus, she should of reconfirm the date and stuff... but anyways, an opportunity like that doesn't come often.

daxinho wrote:
Is odd that you would not call her the day before to make sure that she is alive.. and safe and all that...

wow...

I think this is the overlooked key.  Without a phone call the day before, I wouldn't count on a model to show when she's coming from 3 subway stops away.

Miss Melissa Mok wrote:
Well... not all models are like that, I'm not!

Its not a choice that I can't be in agency.... i'm too short.

But, man... that really sucks... she's pretty stupid to miss that opportunity.  And plus, she should of reconfirm the date and stuff... but anyways, an opportunity like that doesn't come often.

I know! I would be so grateful for even a paying gig without travel; it's so disrespectful for someone to flake.  I know people make mistakes but when it comes to paid trips/jobs and FLYING...come on, how do you screw that up?!

Sian Louise wrote:
there was one in the U.K noshow.co.uk or something similar - the photographer who started it ended up shutting the site down after one of the models featured on it (who obvioulsy had something about her other then a pretty face) threatened to sue his ass. Libel and all that jazz. (wasn't me i hasten to add).

Too bad, he should have gotten a good legal opinion: Three points about [libel and] defamation in the UK - and this is absolutely true:

1) Someone can not get legal aid for a defamation case. So they have to fund it themselves. See: 2)

2) A British lawyer with any brains won't mount such a case unless the claimant can demonstrate that they can afford to loose [and pay the other side's costs as well as their own] - think something like £100,000 in the bank just for starters... often 3- 5 times that amount. See: 1)

and

3) Truth is an absolute defence in the British law of defamation. If what was said is true, and believe it or not, in some cases not even true or completely true [if an information publisher - which the photographer with a "flake" info website arguably is - The Reynolds Defence* might apply], there is no case at all.

I can't even imagine a "model" having the resources to mount a case in the UK much less prove it.... unless it is Kate Moss or Naomi Campbell, or their ilk. Oh, yes, they can threaten to do it, anyone can threaten to do it, but I doubt they could actually do it.

Studio36

* Reynolds Defence

Reynolds v Times Newspapers Limited [2001] 2 AC p. 127.  The effect of the House of Lords judgment in Reynolds is that the media can now make untrue and defamatory statements about an individual and not suffer liability so long as the newspaper has acted in a way which the courts consider 'responsible'.  If a court does find that the publication was responsible, the subject of those allegations appears to have lost any right to redress.  Even if the media defendant was found to have acted irresponsibly, the claimant still cannot obtain a finding that the allegations made against him are untrue – unless (remarkably) the defendant newspaper (or other media publisher) has elected to try to prove the allegations.

Additional note: "Responsible" in this context: 1) Set out the facts as known; 2) Give the person an opportunity to respond to the claims; 3) Do not editorialise, embelish or draw conclusions and included in the information published - let the reader do that for themselves.