Photographer
Vivus Hussein Denuo
Posts: 64211
New York, New York, US
Electra T wrote:
Mayhem #99193
figured some reverse psychology would work. LOL. Electra, I was about to jump right down your throat and ask you to remove that person's MM number. 
Photographer
Vector 38
Posts: 8296
Austin, Texas, US
Vivus Denuo wrote:
Who else has a list? man, it's too bad that stuff happens ... but we move on. let it go & move on.
list? that's just negative energy. why carry that into your photographic future?
sigh.
Photographer
Vivus Hussein Denuo
Posts: 64211
New York, New York, US
C R Photography wrote:
Hence: www.theibl.com I'm aware of IBL ("The Industry Blacklist"). It just doesn't seem to work well, and I don't know how fair it is to those who are reported to it. For one thing, it shouldn't be just a blacklist. What about positive comments?
Photographer
photosbydmp
Posts: 3808
Shepparton-Mooroopna, Victoria, Australia
i have a list it was getting larger everyday, till i just this weekend decided to give up working with aussie models, after another expensive missed plane,at least in the usa i get a 50/50 hit rate book 2 usually one shows in oz, book 10 no one shows. i suspect we are all on some ones list, for one reason or another, i to would love to get it out there, but its a bad idea currently, maybe we should all ,models ,and photographers ,stand up and kick our own asses and remember these are people like us we are screwing over by no-showing without a VERY GOOD REASON.
Model
DawnElizabeth
Posts: 3907
Madison, Mississippi, US
Doug Swinskey wrote:
i got one..they consist of models that:
blew me off early on and now pester me to shoot.
the one model that flaked on me..
models that tag bad photographers pages telling them how awsome they are.
models that work with those photographers.
models that work with photogs that i dont like.
models with amatuer demands
hmmm maybe thats why i dont have anyone to shoot.... Hahaha.....
Photographer
RAW-R IMAGE
Posts: 3379
Los Angeles, California, US
Adria W. wrote:
This isn't a good idea  I see models all the time with notes in their portfolio--"did not receive pictures". Isn't tantamount to saying "DON'T WORK WITH THESE PHOTOGRAPHERS?
Photographer
Vivus Hussein Denuo
Posts: 64211
New York, New York, US
FML-Photography wrote:
man, it's too bad that stuff happens ... but we move on. let it go & move on.
list? that's just negative energy. why carry that into your photographic future?
sigh. When your shoots get into the hundreds, a list can be a memory aid of who, unfortunately, may have stiffed you in the past. "Negative energy"? Call it that if you want. John Kennedy said to forgive those who have hurt you...but remember their names.
Photographer
Sienna Hambleton
Posts: 10352
Toledo, Ohio, US
DawnElizabeth Moderator wrote:
Hahaha..... OMG!!! The incredible Dawn Elizabeth pops her head in! YAYYYY!!!
Photographer
Diane Wallace
Posts: 100
Phoenix, Arizona, US
a photog friend recently shared his idea with me on TFPs: he tells them they have to pay $50 before a TFP shoot- when they show up for the shoot, the first thing that happens is they get their $50 back. That way they have something invested, and if they don't show anyway he goes out for lunch. I think that might sound good at first, but if you're working with a serious model and you're both getting something great from the shoot then it's probably not a good idea. But maybe if you're just shooting for practice with just anyone? I don't know- what do you guys think?
we do have a list of women we won't shoot again, but thankfully it's short. for the no-shows, they'd have to pay us our regular rate, but we'd shoot with them that way.
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 26342
Portland, Oregon, US
Random thoughts on this topic (photographers having a list of models they won't work with):
>>> It seems that some variation of this topic pops up about once a week or so.
>>> I strongly believe that posting such a list is a bad, bad idea, for the following reasons:
o When I see such a list, I am required to take the photographer's side of the
story without hearing the model's side of the story. Why should I believe that
the model was the one at fault? For example, how do I know that the
photographer was where he was supposed to be for the sitting?
o While I may doubt the "facts" presented by the photographer, there is no doubt
that the photographer has devoted time & space to an activity that can be
viewed as vindictive & petty. The photographer's portfolio should be promoting
his work, and he is just being negative with such a list. It makes a bad
impression.
o Posting such a list is not a constructive activity. It will certainly not inspire
a model's desire to work with that photographer.
>>> It appears to me that some photographers have more bad experiences than others. For example, I've never had a model flake on me. And while a sitting might not result in worthwhile images for me or the model, it is always an objective that for every sitting, the model & I to part ways respecting each other.
>>> Flakiness happens. The unexpected happens. The model is not always the one at fault -- indeed, sometimes no one is at fault. For example, I've had models show up despite feeling sick; in fact, I remember one model who had coughing fits every time I asked her to lie down -- I might have preferred to reschedule or cancel the sitting.
>>> I believe that there are steps that can be taken to ensure a minimum of flaking and a maximum of enjoyment. For example:
o Did the photographer check references for the intended model?
o Is the intended model sufficiently incented for the sitting?
o Is the intended model sufficiently excited & "psyched" for the sitting?
o Will the sitting be fun & easy for all participants, or is it "work"?
o Have all the details been sufficiently communicated & confirmed?
o etc.
So, instead of sitting back & passing judgment, perhaps we as photographers can expend a little more effort in "stacking the deck" and ensuring a higher likelihood of a good sitting?
Photographer
Vivus Hussein Denuo
Posts: 64211
New York, New York, US
Looknsee Photography wrote:
Random thoughts on this topic (photographers having a list of models they won't work with):
>>> It seems that some variation of this topic pops up about once a week or so.
>>> I strongly believe that posting such a list is a bad, bad idea Having a list and posting a list are different matters. I and some others who have posted here, and many others, do have lists, mental, physical or virtual. It's one way to seek to avoid mutually bad shoots in the future. I agree that posting a list would be a bad idea on a site like this or in forums like these. However, the issue of whether there should ever be any site to report and publicly list both outstanding and slimy photographers or models is not a slam dunk, IMO. As I've said above, there are advantages and disadvantages. If it were carefully done, with balance and due-process safeguards, it could be a very helpful thing, for both newbies and the experienced.
Photographer
edgymodels
Posts: 117
Atlantic Beach, Florida, US
i belive we should make a list of models that don't show or cancell the last min.. and thats why i don't do tfp.. just because of that...
michel
edgy models
ps you models know who you are....
Model
Gabrielle Helms
Posts: 613
Phoenix, Arizona, US
Vivus Denuo wrote:
I asked, "Who else has a list?" (sigh)... cowards.
Why is everyone so afraid to name names, tell their stories? Seriously? It's not slander or libel if it's true. These online model / phtoographer communities would be a whole hell of a lot more useful and less frustrating if there were some method for accountability. Hey, if it works for ebay... Well... on Paidmodels.com you can name names & they do, photographers can't read the models section & models can't read the photographer's section.... hope that helps some of you out... personally I only tell close model friends who I think was not a good photographer... = D Just to help them out!
Model
Cecelia O
Posts: 41
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US
Its so funny how all the models u r talking about r the 1s makin the money when me on the other hand, I show up on time and if not i give atleast an hours notice.....I am pleasant to work with and get along with every photog i have worked with.....the only complaints i ever got were because i couldnt shoot a second time......I take direction easily......but no1 wants to work with me and i have no clue y....i think that my pix r pretty good......y not pay me to model 4 u?? Am I not good enough 4 this industry? please respond to this
Photographer
Vivus Hussein Denuo
Posts: 64211
New York, New York, US
Gabby1984 wrote:
(sigh)... cowards.
Why is everyone so afraid to name names, tell their stories? Seriously? It's not slander or libel if it's true. These online model / phtoographer communities would be a whole hell of a lot more useful and less frustrating if there were some method for accountability. The mods will only let this thread stay open if nobody names names!
Photographer
Jim Ball
Posts: 17632
Frontenac, Kansas, US
Cecelia O wrote:
Its so funny how all the models u r talking about r the 1s makin the money when me on the other hand, I show up on time and if not i give atleast an hours notice.....I am pleasant to work with and get along with every photog i have worked with.....the only complaints i ever got were because i couldnt shoot a second time......I take direction easily......but no1 wants to work with me and i have no clue y....i think that my pix r pretty good......y not pay me to model 4 u?? Am I not good enough 4 this industry? please respond to this Ce-Ce,
There have been numerous threads on MM as to why models such as yourself who insist on paid assignments only are not getting work.
If you want paid work, sign with an agency. If you are rejected by agencies, and you won't pose for fine art or glamour nude, then you might reconsider your options. Reading your profile, you have placed strict limits on your marketability. Professional photographers getting paid by their clients will usually seek models from an agency for several reasons--if they even have to look for models and arent having models provided or specified by the client. Occasionally a professional photographer will go to the independent net models, but not often. Amateur photographers are shooting for the love of the craft and amateur models (even very experienced ones) also do it for the love of the craft. In most of those circumstances nobody is getting paid.
Amateur models willing to pose nude are the most likely to receive compensation for their work. I'm not telling you to pose nude--just pointing out a fact. Why don't you do a little survey of MM models actually getting paid for their work and ask what type of work they are getting paid for. Betcha it is nude work in most cases.
Photographer
Rick Reynolds
Posts: 73
Los Angeles, California, US
Do you think that it's easier to work with Male Models as opposed to Female Models?...Because I think that every photographer who is true to the game can find a bitch or two in his port...............male and female......
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 26342
Portland, Oregon, US
Vivus Denuo wrote:
I agree that posting a list would be a bad idea on a site like this or in forums like these. However, the issue of whether there should ever be any site to report and publicly list both outstanding and slimy photographers or models is not a slam dunk, IMO. As I've said above, there are advantages and disadvantages. If it were carefully done, with balance and due-process safeguards, it could be a very helpful thing, for both newbies and the experienced. Hence, the suggestion that photographers check the model's references. And that goes both ways -- models should definitely check photographer's references.
As to any site for reporting & listing publically, I think the disadvantages far outweigh any possible advantage, regardless of any so-called safeguards.
Photographer
Natalie Photography
Posts: 161
Sydney, Nova Scotia, Canada
ME! i am just way too demanding and not very nice
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 26342
Portland, Oregon, US
Gabby1984 wrote:
(sigh)... cowards.
Why is everyone so afraid to name names, tell their stories? Seriously? It's not slander or libel if it's true. Sorry, "truth" is relative.
Say Mr. Photo lists Ms Model on his Did-Not-Show list. Is that the truth? Perhaps it is, perhaps it is not. Perhaps the model showed up on time & Mr. Photo was the no-show. Perhaps Mr. Photo made an inappropriate advance & was mad because he was rejected. Perhaps Ms. Model really was abducted by aliens.
In civil suits (e.g. slander & libel suits), it is typically one person's word against the other. Can Mr. Photo prove that he was on location on time? Can he also prove that Ms. Model wasn't there on time?
Suppose, further, in a like act of vindictiveness, Ms. Model posts on her list that Mr. Photo touched her inappropriately & snuck into the changing room to photograph her in her underwear, and then he refused to pay her with her CD of images on time. Can Mr. Photo prove that he didn't touch her, that he stayed out of her changing room, and that he did turn over the CD on time? I suspect that Mr. Photo didn't keep records & didn't obtain a receipt for that CD, did he?
Suppose a site is used to display such a list -- is that site prepared to defend itself from any & all "restraint of trade" lawsuits? Can the site prove the validity of every claim on every list?
Bottom line: it's just asking for trouble. Big time. Much more trouble than it's worth. Post such a list & you invite lawyers into your life.
Finally, what kind of impression does Mr. Photo make on potential models by posting such a list? What impression will potential clients get?
Photographer
Vivus Hussein Denuo
Posts: 64211
New York, New York, US
Looknsee Photography wrote:
Hence, the suggestion that photographers check the model's references. And that goes both ways -- models should definitely check photographer's references.
As to any site for reporting & listing publically, I think the disadvantages far outweigh any possible advantage, regardless of any so-called safeguards. Yes, models and photogs should ask for and check references.
To me, a reporting site would work pretty much like a credit bureau site, or a site that ranks doctors, surgeons, hospitals, lawyers, judges, etc., etc. There are sites for lots of such professionals and institutions. People use them to get an idea whether the professional they plan to hire is likely to turn out to be a freakin' nightmare or not. Why not models and photographers?
Photographer
Active Lifestyle Photo
Posts: 756
Laguna Niguel, California, US
Cecelia O wrote:
Its so funny how all the models u r talking about r the 1s makin the money when me on the other hand, I show up on time and if not i give atleast an hours notice.....I am pleasant to work with and get along with every photog i have worked with.....the only complaints i ever got were because i couldnt shoot a second time......I take direction easily......but no1 wants to work with me and i have no clue y....i think that my pix r pretty good......y not pay me to model 4 u?? Am I not good enough 4 this industry? please respond to this I'd work with you if you promise to never type teen speak again and provide 24 hrs notice to cancel :-D
Model
Susi
Posts: 3083
Atlanta, Georgia, US
I've heard bad stuff about that model Susi...I wouldn't work with her.
Photographer
Vivus Hussein Denuo
Posts: 64211
New York, New York, US
Susi wrote:
I've heard bad stuff about that model Susi...I wouldn't work with her. I'd work with Susi!
But watch out for photographer number 125825. He doesn't know which end of the camera to point at you!
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45344
San Juan Bautista, California, US
Travis Feisthamel Photo wrote:
I always thought some sort of feedback type thing would be good, something like Ebay does. Have an option to vote for good reference, bad reference, undecided or something like that along with a short one line comment as to why. If the model really wants to make it then a good feedback would definately help. In the past week, I know of three models that have flaked out in one way or another. It would be good to know who to work with and who to skip over. And models, how many times are you going to use the someone is sick, someone was in a car accident, and my car wouldn't make it, etc, etc, etc..... Ebay SUCKS BIG TIME!!!!!
The dealers are cool, it's just all the money Ebay takes and doesn't support their merchants. Of course Ebay is HUGE .. a multi billion dollar company, so they don't give a flying F** about customer service. That is my opinion. Your's and millions of others my differ.
And that my friends is exactly why we do not need a list of models not to shoot with.
BUT I can give you a list of over 300 models you should shoot with. Disclaimer; Your results and opinion may vary. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one ... heck, anyone having a bad day can be one too. It just doesn't mean that a blacklist on models OR phototgraphers will ever be right.
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45344
San Juan Bautista, California, US
WG Rowland wrote:
Because one person's pile of shit is another's rose garden..
I've got a few models I'm not actively working with.. My reasons are personal and insane.. And I would not expect them to apply to any other photographer.. Right on! 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45344
San Juan Bautista, California, US
Nate Boguszewski wrote:
1. It is unprofessional
2. It is just tacky Right on!
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45344
San Juan Bautista, California, US
Jay Farrell wrote:
It's a photographer's job to understand people and be able to recognize the warning signs of flaking....unless you've done a little research on that model and have had ample communication with her before the shoot, and there were no red flags, then you have to share the blame. Who's to say that some models may "flake" because they may not feel comfortable or get a bad vibe from a photographer....neither side is always right. I could see any feedback system being flawed because not all would be accurate. Your thinking is very logical. If anything I believe that positive feedback is better. Let's have a voting system for the "Top Models" on Model Mayhem and give those who deserve it the recognition. It's better than giving attention to those who should not have it, right?
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45344
San Juan Bautista, California, US
D. M. Gremlin wrote:
Considering how many times I've had models go out of their way to schedule a shoot, set up a time, etc - and then simply not show up, I'd really like to see everyone's list.
I've lost quite a bit of money reserving studio time, not to mention the lost income that I could have made from other clients I could have scheduled on those days. Also when I'm travelling and I run into a flaky model it hurts the other models that I could have shot with instead.
There really needs to be some sort of system for accountability.
I've considered starting a place for all the 'dirt' on my own forums (forums.dm-gremlin.com) - I've got a private section there that only approved people can access. I've put a few of my own stories up there, but mostly they are just for me and a few people that I know.
Let me know your thoughts. I really don't have any exciting tales of models that I would not work with again. Well, there was the German model who kidnapped me and kept me in her dungeon for a day until I coughed up the negatives for her. Playing the submissive can be hell sometimes!  Ouch!
Actually I carefully screen all models I am thinking of working with! Except that German, I met her at a bar! Not a smart place to find models! That was the last time I did that! LOL
About studio time, if it's a rental studio situation then I book a "back up" model and have her on stand by. The models I hire know that they can be replaced rather quickly, and they like to make money, so it works well for me! By the way, I maybe interested in booking your studio.
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45344
San Juan Bautista, California, US
UdoR wrote:
This is a very bad idea for many, many reasons:
Shit happens!
Miscommunication happens!
A report is only one side of the coin!
Some people work well together and others don't!
A model can get creeped out by a photographer for the weirdest reasons, at last, it's the internet.
... then there are other reasons...
Because of all of that... I am locking this thread.
UdoR
Moderator We should start a positive thread of who are the models we love working with! Isn't there one like that already?
Photographer
Vivus Hussein Denuo
Posts: 64211
New York, New York, US
Patrick Walberg wrote:
Right on! Just curious: Do you think there should be sites that list, rank or allow client comment on any professionals? Heart surgeons, trial lawyers, real estate appraisers? Etc.? Do you think banks should be allowed to report what they say are customer defaults to credit bureaus?
Photographer
Vegas Alien
Posts: 1747
Armington, Illinois, US
Simple: require $50 deposits before you book a date. Let them flake after that. Works dandy for me. No shoot, the Alien goes for drinks with friends.
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45344
San Juan Bautista, California, US
Doug Mackay DMP wrote:
i have a list it was getting larger everyday, till i just this weekend decided to give up working with aussie models, after another expensive missed plane,at least in the usa i get a 50/50 hit rate book 2 usually one shows in oz, book 10 no one shows. i suspect we are all on some ones list, for one reason or another, i to would love to get it out there, but its a bad idea currently, maybe we should all ,models ,and photographers ,stand up and kick our own asses and remember these are people like us we are screwing over by no-showing without a VERY GOOD REASON. Doug, why the hell are you trying to book models from the other side of the planet? Damn! There are plenty of beautiful and talented models within a few hours of you!
Photographer
Mvr Photography
Posts: 6
It is a shame--this site promotes saying positive things, but not pointing up the negative things. I've had several models engage my time and then blow off the photo sessions - it would be nice if there was a way to give them a negative feedback or some sort of rating for reliabilty and work ethic.
Maybe a "blacklist" isn't the answer, but some indicator from others would help to know if a model or photographer is worth the effort of communicatiing with.
Just a thought.
Michael
Photographer
Free at last
Posts: 1472
Fresno, California, US
Cecelia O wrote:
Its so funny how all the models u r talking about r the 1s makin the money when me on the other hand, I show up on time and if not i give atleast an hours notice.....I am pleasant to work with and get along with every photog i have worked with.....the only complaints i ever got were because i couldnt shoot a second time......I take direction easily......but no1 wants to work with me and i have no clue y....i think that my pix r pretty good......y not pay me to model 4 u?? Am I not good enough 4 this industry? please respond to this After reading your bio and the laundry list of demands within, the only thought that comes to mind is - you're joking - right?
Lohkee!
|
Ouch!