Photographer
Vivus Hussein Denuo
Posts: 64211
New York, New York, US
From the threads, I think I'm not the only one with such a list. Mine is short, just six MM models, maybe another 6 non-MM models. I get along with most people including models, so a model has to be a demonstrated bitch, thief, druggie, alcoholic, false accuser or the like to get on my list. Who else has a list? And I know, models have lists of photographers not to shoot with. I'm probably being added to some lists right now.  Edit: No names, please!
Model
Adria W.
Posts: 776
Sacramento, California, US
This isn't a good idea 
Model
jade83
Posts: 2253
Columbia, Missouri, US
Yes, Vivus, we all have those lists assembled and organized-in our heads, that is, and everyone seems to prefer keeping all of it on the DL here.
Photographer
Vivus Hussein Denuo
Posts: 64211
New York, New York, US
Adria W. wrote:
This isn't a good idea Why?
Photographer
Bryan Benoit
Posts: 2106
Miami, Florida, US
No list... Been lucky that I have never had any horrible experiences... maybe some I wouldn't work again simply because there wasn't any particular creative chemistry between us but nothing that I would fault the model for.
Photographer
Fotticelli
Posts: 12252
Rockville, Maryland, US
Adria W. wrote:
This isn't a good idea He is not proposing a public list.
Photographer
Chris Macan
Posts: 12993
HAVERTOWN, Pennsylvania, US
Adria W. wrote:
This isn't a good idea Why not?
As long as no one is pointing finger it seems to be just as good of a topic as many other.
It's just a discussion of HR Managment.
Photographer
Vivus Hussein Denuo
Posts: 64211
New York, New York, US
jade83 wrote:
Yes, Vivus, we all have those lists assembled and organized-in our heads, that is, and everyone seems to prefer keeping all of it on the DL here. I asked for no names.
Photographer
Tog
Posts: 55204
Birmingham, Alabama, US
Because one person's pile of shit is another's rose garden..
I've got a few models I'm not actively working with.. My reasons are personal and insane.. And I would not expect them to apply to any other photographer..
Photographer
Fotticelli
Posts: 12252
Rockville, Maryland, US
Vivus Denuo wrote:
... so a model has to be a demonstrated bitch, thief, druggie, alcoholic, false accuser or the like to get on my list. What! Those are the best!
Photographer
David Edens
Posts: 71
Tallahassee, Florida, US
Bad idea , IT will be a very long list. I would gess one in twenty models that I converse with show up on time sober and try to model for what was agreed. (Granted I work with a lot of new models)
Photographer
Vivus Hussein Denuo
Posts: 64211
New York, New York, US
Gregory Garecki wrote:
What! Those are the best!
Oh, and I forgot to mention "no-show." But I guess a no-show isn't technically a model until he or she shows.
Photographer
Vivus Hussein Denuo
Posts: 64211
New York, New York, US
David Edens wrote:
Bad idea , IT will be a very long list. I would gess one in twenty models that I converse with show up on time sober and try to model for what was agreed. (Granted I work with a lot of new models) Only one in twenty shows up sober and ready to model as agreed??? I don't feel so bad, now. Sorry, David.
Model
Carmilla
Posts: 357
Highland, California, US
I'm starting my own right now... 1. Me 
Photographer
D. M. Gremlin
Posts: 197
Long Beach, California, US
Considering how many times I've had models go out of their way to schedule a shoot, set up a time, etc - and then simply not show up, I'd really like to see everyone's list.
I've lost quite a bit of money reserving studio time, not to mention the lost income that I could have made from other clients I could have scheduled on those days. Also when I'm travelling and I run into a flaky model it hurts the other models that I could have shot with instead.
There really needs to be some sort of system for accountability.
I've considered starting a place for all the 'dirt' on my own forums (forums.dm-gremlin.com) - I've got a private section there that only approved people can access. I've put a few of my own stories up there, but mostly they are just for me and a few people that I know.
Let me know your thoughts.
Photographer
Vivus Hussein Denuo
Posts: 64211
New York, New York, US
D. M. Gremlin wrote:
Considering how many times I've had models go out of their way to schedule a shoot, set up a time, etc - and then simply not show up, I'd really like to see everyone's list. No names, please!
Photographer
D. M. Gremlin
Posts: 197
Long Beach, California, US
Vivus Denuo wrote:
No names, please! So... without names, what's supposed to be on this list?
I suppose then mine would look like:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
And I can't see how that would be helpful to anyone.
Photographer
Visual Into-xXx-ication
Posts: 83
Senecaville, Ohio, US
hell man i wish i had models to complain about but cant even get the time of day unless they are already my friend lol
Photographer
JT Hodges
Posts: 2191
Austin, Texas, US
Vivus Denuo wrote:
From the threads, I think I'm not the only one with such a list. Mine is short, just six MM models, maybe another 6 non-MM models. I get along with most people including models, so a model has to be a demonstrated bitch, thief, druggie, alcoholic, false accuser or the like to get on my list. Who else has a list?
And I know, models have lists of photographers not to shoot with. I'm probably being added to some lists right now.
Edit: No names, please! Why keep a list? Most of the ones that would show up on the list will never stick around long enough to contact you a second time.
Photographer
Vivus Hussein Denuo
Posts: 64211
New York, New York, US
D. M. Gremlin wrote:
So... without names, what's supposed to be on this list?
I suppose then mine would look like:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
And I can't see how that would be helpful to anyone. I asked, "Who else has a list?"
Photographer
D. M. Gremlin
Posts: 197
Long Beach, California, US
Vivus Denuo wrote:
I asked, "Who else has a list?" (sigh)... cowards.
Why is everyone so afraid to name names, tell their stories? Seriously? It's not slander or libel if it's true. These online model / phtoographer communities would be a whole hell of a lot more useful and less frustrating if there were some method for accountability. Hey, if it works for ebay...
Photographer
MN photo
Posts: 114
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US
Myself and several loval photographers have kept a list for years. Sadly, many of the models come and go so fast the list has not been of very much help. Oddly, I have gotten some great photos from models who were so high they barely knew their name.
Photographer
IABN
Posts: 394
Brooklyn, New York, US
Vivus Denuo wrote:
Why? 1. It is unprofessional
2. It is just tacky
Photographer
Travis Feisthamel Photo
Posts: 671
Watertown, New York, US
D. M. Gremlin wrote:
(sigh)... cowards.
Why is everyone so afraid to name names, tell their stories? Seriously? It's not slander or libel if it's true. These online model / phtoographer communities would be a whole hell of a lot more useful and less frustrating if there were some method for accountability. Hey, if it works for ebay... I always thought some sort of feedback type thing would be good, something like Ebay does. Have an option to vote for good reference, bad reference, undecided or something like that along with a short one line comment as to why. If the model really wants to make it then a good feedback would definately help. In the past week, I know of three models that have flaked out in one way or another. It would be good to know who to work with and who to skip over. And models, how many times are you going to use the someone is sick, someone was in a car accident, and my car wouldn't make it, etc, etc, etc.....
Photographer
S W I N S K E Y
Posts: 24376
Saint Petersburg, Florida, US
i got one..they consist of models that:
blew me off early on and now pester me to shoot.
the one model that flaked on me..
models that tag bad photographers pages telling them how awsome they are.
models that work with those photographers.
models that work with photogs that i dont like.
models with amatuer demands
hmmm maybe thats why i dont have anyone to shoot....
Photographer
Vivus Hussein Denuo
Posts: 64211
New York, New York, US
D. M. Gremlin wrote:
(sigh)... cowards.
Why is everyone so afraid to name names, tell their stories? Seriously? It's not slander or libel if it's true. These online model / phtoographer communities would be a whole hell of a lot more useful and less frustrating if there were some method for accountability. Hey, if it works for ebay... A public list would doubtless include persons you don't want to shoot with, but it would also persons that some vindictive person is pissed off at, and persons who didn't click with one person but might click with you. A public list would be unfair, inefficient and ineffective.
Photographer
Vivus Hussein Denuo
Posts: 64211
New York, New York, US
Nate Boguszewski wrote:
1. It is unprofessional
2. It is just tacky What would be unprofessional and tacky?
Photographer
Travis Feisthamel Photo
Posts: 671
Watertown, New York, US
Vivus Denuo wrote:
A public list would doubtless include persons you don't want to shoot with, but it would also persons that some vindictive person is pissed off at, and persons who didn't click with one person but might click with you. A public list would be unfair, inefficient and ineffective. Thats where a percentage type thing would come in. If say 1 photographer does like them, but 99 do. Then YOU can judge.
Also make it so you can only put a comment if there has been two way communication with that model/photographer. That would help stop someone form making a false statement when they haven't been in contact.
Photographer
UnoMundo
Posts: 47532
Olympia, Washington, US
my list:
models that no show more than twice
models that try to weasel TFP then shows up in new car
models that try to weasel TFP then tells me about the $600 vet bill for the rat dog
models that try to weasel TFP then tells me about her Sandals $2000 Jamaica vacation.
models that do not laugh at my jokes
any divas.
Photographer
Vivus Hussein Denuo
Posts: 64211
New York, New York, US
Travis Feisthamel Photo wrote:
Thats where a percentage type thing would come in. If say 1 photographer does like them, but 99 do. Then YOU can judge.
Also make it so you can only put a comment if there has been two way communication with that model/photographer. That would help stop someone form making a false statement when they haven't been in contact. Hm, there's an idea there, if a way could be found so that a person could only be listed if he or she was given notification and an opportunity to respond to each person who listed him or her. Agreed, though, if a person has 99 complaints lodged against him or her, most of us would want to know.
Photographer
Jay Farrell
Posts: 13408
Nashville, Tennessee, US
It's a photographer's job to understand people and be able to recognize the warning signs of flaking....unless you've done a little research on that model and have had ample communication with her before the shoot, and there were no red flags, then you have to share the blame. Who's to say that some models may "flake" because they may not feel comfortable or get a bad vibe from a photographer....neither side is always right. I could see any feedback system being flawed because not all would be accurate.
Photographer
Vivus Hussein Denuo
Posts: 64211
New York, New York, US
UnoMundo Photography wrote:
my list:
models that no show more than twice
models that try to weasel TFP then shows up in new car
models that try to weasel TFP then tells me about the $600 vet bill for the rat dog
models that try to weasel TFP then tells me about her Sandals $2000 Jamaica vacation.
models that do not laugh at my jokes
any divas. LOL. My list has just 2 categories: No-shows and bitchy people. I haven't had any of the really bad experiences some photogs tell tales of.
Photographer
Travis Feisthamel Photo
Posts: 671
Watertown, New York, US
Jay Farrell wrote:
It's a photographer's job to understand people and be able to recognize the warning signs of flaking....unless you've done a little research on that model and have had ample communication with her before the shoot, and there were no red flags, then you have to share the blame. Who's to say that some models may "flake" because they may not feel comfortable or get a bad vibe from a photographer....neither side is always right. I could see any feedback system being flawed because not all would be accurate. Your but maybe there would be less flakes if they are seriously trying to model. They wouldn't want the bad feedback so to speak.
Photographer
Jay Farrell
Posts: 13408
Nashville, Tennessee, US
Travis Feisthamel Photo wrote:
Your but maybe there would be less flakes if they are seriously trying to model. They wouldn't want the bad feedback so to speak. Yes but part of it is knowing who the non serious ones are....word gets aroud within peoples' networks when one flakes, same as models will talk amongst themselves over an inappropriate photographer.....in time the truth is revealed.
Photographer
Travis Feisthamel Photo
Posts: 671
Watertown, New York, US
Jay Farrell wrote:
Yes but part of it is knowing who the non serious ones are....word gets aroud within peoples' networks when one flakes, same as models will talk amongst themselves over an inappropriate photographer.....in time the truth is revealed. That probably would hold true in bigger cities like New York, Los Angeles, etc, but in rural areas there are only a few models to choose from.
Photographer
udor
Posts: 25255
New York, New York, US
This is a very bad idea for many, many reasons:
Shit happens!
Miscommunication happens!
A report is only one side of the coin!
Some people work well together and others don't!
A model can get creeped out by a photographer for the weirdest reasons, at last, it's the internet.
... then there are other reasons...
Because of all of that... I am locking this thread.
UdoR
Moderator
Photographer
D. M. Gremlin
Posts: 197
Long Beach, California, US
Vivus Denuo wrote:
A public list would doubtless include persons you don't want to shoot with, but it would also persons that some vindictive person is pissed off at, and persons who didn't click with one person but might click with you. A public list would be unfair, inefficient and ineffective. I've actually given this quite a bit of thought and I would agree that a list would have the potential to turn out as you described, which is part of the reason I haven't made that section of my website completely public yet, but I believe it could also work well if managed correctly.
The way I've got things organized on my site is kind of like this:
The name / OMP# / MM# or whatever of the model in question, and a summary of facts (model e-mailed this day, scheduled a time for this day, showed up early / late / didn't show up & didn't call, or called and cancelled last minute with X excuse, etc). Details such as pay amount or TFP are omitted.
Then there's room for a summary of what the model was like to shoot with, but as you had mentioned, this is less relevant as everyone has different personalities and shooting styles.
This list is also for positive comments as well - if a model was really great to shoot with, then the same format applies. However, if anyone strays from this format, positive or negative, the message is erased or edited. My list is not meant to be a place to rant, rather a place to document specific events related to specific people, to help photographers not waste money, and to help new models get established.
Other scenarios that some photographers complain about, such as models that don't write back, models who write back but are rude but don't actually schedule a shoot, models who stop responding after the shoot or scenarios that don't otherwise encompass a scheduled event (i.e. models that work with photographers I don't like and that sort of thing) are not included in the scope of this kind of review.
If this sounds interesting or useful to anyone, let me know and if there's enough interest I'll open up that section of my website to MMers.
Photographer
Vivus Hussein Denuo
Posts: 64211
New York, New York, US
D. M. Gremlin wrote:
I've actually given this quite a bit of thought and I would agree that a list would have the potential to turn out as you described, which is part of the reason I haven't made that section of my website completely public yet, but I believe it could also work well if managed correctly.
The way I've got things organized on my site is kind of like this:
The name / OMP# / MM# or whatever of the model in question, and a summary of facts (model e-mailed this day, scheduled a time for this day, showed up early / late / didn't show up & didn't call, or called and cancelled last minute with X excuse, etc). Details such as pay amount or TFP are omitted.
Then there's room for a summary of what the model was like to shoot with, but as you had mentioned, this is less relevant as everyone has different personalities and shooting styles.
This list is also for positive comments as well - if a model was really great to shoot with, then the same format applies. However, if anyone strays from this format, positive or negative, the message is erased or edited. My list is not meant to be a place to rant, rather a place to document specific events related to specific people, to help photographers not waste money, and to help new models get established.
Other scenarios that some photographers complain about, such as models that don't write back, models who write back but are rude but don't actually schedule a shoot, models who stop responding after the shoot or scenarios that don't otherwise encompass a scheduled event (i.e. models that work with photographers I don't like and that sort of thing) are not included in the scope of this kind of review.
If this sounds interesting or useful to anyone, let me know and if there's enough interest I'll open up that section of my website to MMers. As attractive as the idea is at a glance, it would only be useful and fair if the persons listed are given notice that they have been listed, and an opportunity to respond. I.e., if it worked something like a credit report, where, say, a bank sends a negative credit notice about you to a reporting agency. Then the agency sends you a notice that it rec'd that negative report and gives you an opportunity to either add your response to your own report, or contact the bank and dispute it, or both. If a list didn't have those safeguards, I'd be opposed to such a list. If it did have those safeguards, it could possibly be fair and useful.
Model
Electra T
Posts: 15462
Brooklyn, Indiana, US
Mayhem #149480
Mayhem #99193
figured some reverse psychology would work.
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