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:::::black Lists::::
well in talking with another local photographer, i realized we had common names on a mental "list" of models, that we dont care to work with.....ever... is this the same in all areas, are you guys talking to each other? and to you models, having been called an asshole and having been told "i'd never..ever work with you" from a newbie model, are you guys talking to each other, do you have "lists"? just curious... Jul 21 05 11:03 am Link I've talked with a few photographers here in the AZ when something pops up. I don't do it to black list but I just pass on an experience to them so they are aware and let them make their own decisions. Jul 21 05 11:10 am Link And yes us models talk to- Not only for our safety but to anticipate what to expect when you show up for a shoot. It does work both ways though where you talk about a photographer that you just have to work with and may not of heard about if not from another model. Jul 21 05 11:17 am Link doug, absolutely! the atlanta pool of photographers doesn't seem to be overly large. so, chances are, someone has heard of them and you can just ask around. girls like me who've shot with quite a few of them can be *investigated* as well. references make a difference. muas are a good source of info (of course) too. Jul 21 05 11:20 am Link I have a few photographers and models that I would never work with. And as I go alond and try out new photographers I decide if I like the way the shoot goes, if they do what they say they are going to do and if the pictures are good. So I add the bad ones on my list. My main photographer also lets me know of any photographers who are weirdos. Jul 21 05 11:21 am Link also i am very cautious when going to a new photographer so I may talk to a photographer for a few weeks or maybe a month or two before even trying to set up a shoot. Jul 21 05 11:23 am Link Yeah, I have a black list. I think anyone who's been at this for any length of time does. Likewise, we're prpobably all on a couple of black lists. Well, except for me. I'm on like 50 black lists. I don't usually share my black list unless the photographer is just really off the wall nuts. If someone asks for an opinion, they get an honest one, but I would still expect them to make up their own minds. Do I expect too much? Jul 21 05 11:28 am Link Posted by theda: Nope, not asking too much at all. Jul 21 05 11:31 am Link Posted by theda: Sounds about right, and that's pretty much how I approach it. I've worked with photographers who have godawful reputations, only to find that we sync just fine. Unless someone's egregiously terrible according to all sources, I allow for personality differences and make my own call. Jul 21 05 11:33 am Link I wouldn't say that I keep a list. However, if another photographer asks how a shoot with a particular model went, I'll convey my thoughts, good or bad. I know that many posters to these boards have said that they'd like to have some sort of registry of models that flake out on them. I think something like that is counterproductive. And, in all probablility, chronic flakes won't be around the biz long enough to flake on many shoots. They just sort of fade away. One thing though, whether you are a model or a photog, and you provide your candid thoughts to others about another model or photographer, be sure you know who you are talking about. When you shoot a lot of shoots, faces and names get blurred. I know one photog who was hurt seriously by a case of mistaken identity when a model said some stuff about him when she actually meant someone else...her hectic schedule caused her to confuse the two in her head. It's really hard to take back something once it's been said. Jul 21 05 11:44 am Link Posted by theda: I have list of people who spoil me with dog treats and belly rubs. Jul 21 05 11:55 am Link Posted by Zoe: muas are a good source of info (of course) too. funny most of my refferals are from MUAs, then models and i have actually been reffered by a couple of photographers.. Jul 21 05 12:08 pm Link Posted by theda: well i really dont care what anyones experiences was unless it was criminal (she stole my camera equipment!)..i like to make up my own mind..some models treat me like im something and some treat me like im dirt... Jul 21 05 12:10 pm Link Posted by SexKitten18: wow, if i see someone that might work for a certain gig, they might get a couple days notice...thats it.. Jul 21 05 12:11 pm Link Posted by SexKitten18: I thought all photographers were wierdos, haha. Jul 21 05 12:59 pm Link There is only one person on my black list. Any model who asks me about this photographer I will tell her to steer clear from him. We had an excellent shoot, then decided for another shoot. That went good as well. Then we disagreed on something. Particularly me shooting topless, and he didn't like that. Now he has refused to give me my pictures. I'd hate to see someone else disagree with him and that happen to them. All of the other photographers I've worked with are wonderful and I talk highly about them every chance I get. We talk, it's not all bad. Most of my convos about photogs are held in very high regards. Unless it's the previous photog I mentioned. Jul 21 05 01:05 pm Link Posted by Jessika Rae: That's been my experience as well, Jessika. In my little world, photographers are some pretty cool beans, man. Jul 21 05 01:10 pm Link Ever hear that song "Monsters & Angels" by Voice Of The Beehive? There are monsters, there are angels, there's a peacefulness and a rage inside us all. There is sugar, there is salt there is ice and there is fire in every single heart. There are monsters. There are angels. That is how I see people. We all have the capacity to be monsters and angels and I bet everyone reading this has been. I bet there are people in your life that you were AWFUL towards. I bet those people loathe you. An ex-lover? An estranged relative? I bet someone out there thinks you're a dickhead. And they are right about you. Because you were a dickhead to them. By the same token, I bet there are people who would laud you and praise you and have countless good things to say about you too. And those people are right about you too. Because you have always been a respecful lady or gentleman to them. I have models I would never work with. But I would never tell anyone else not to work with them. Just because the chemistry wasn't there with me and they were idiots when I worked with them doesn't mean that model will be a jerk to everyone. Sometimes she's a monster. Sometimes she's an angel. Just like you. Just like everyone. Jul 21 05 01:16 pm Link Posted by Shyly: Posted by Jessika Rae: That's been my experience as well, Jessika. In my little world, photographers are some pretty cool beans, man. Same here. I'm so happy with 9 out of 10 photograhpers I've worked with. Everyone has been so hospitable and makes me feel really comfortable and I've established really good business/frienships out of this. So honestly, really really good experiences with you photographers! So thank you! Jul 21 05 01:16 pm Link I actually don't keep a "list" and I try hard not to talk out of school. On the odd occasion I tell a story from experience, I try to leave the name of the person in question out of it. There's more than enough bad blood in this business without me adding to it. Jul 21 05 01:28 pm Link Posted by Zoe: Definitely, I talk with fellow artists, and also photogs and models. There are informal lists, and I'm probably on a couple too. But, I also get to find out which of my competition is on whose lists! Jul 21 05 01:59 pm Link Posted by EmElle: Posted by Zoe: Definitely, I talk with fellow artists, and also photogs and models. There are informal lists, and I'm probably on a couple too. But, I also get to find out which of my competition is on whose lists! good to see you emelle..missed ya.. Jul 21 05 02:02 pm Link Posted by Doug Swinskey: You know, I almost forgot about this place, but I started coming back about a week ago. Some funny and interesting, and even a few mind boggling threads in here. Jul 21 05 02:08 pm Link Posted by Doug Swinskey: I don't really communicate with other photographers about models, or about anything. I kind of stay over here near the beach by myself and away from the drama. Jul 21 05 02:33 pm Link Posted by U240Robert: I actually just saw this with a model, only it was a bit different. Jul 21 05 02:56 pm Link Even if I didn't like a photographer personally, I would never tell another model "Don't EVER work with so-and-so". I just tell other girls how my shoot went and in general what to expect. If the guy did something very wrong, like try to take advantage of me (thankfully that hasn't happened), I would definetly warn people. I only have a small list of who not to work with. Jul 21 05 03:09 pm Link Posted by U240Robert: Posted by Doug Swinskey: well in talking with another local photographer, i realized we had common names on a mental "list" of models, that we dont care to work with.....ever...is this the same in all areas, are you guys talking to each other? and to you models, having been called an asshole and having been told "i'd never..ever work with you" from a newbie model, are you guys talking to each other, do you have "lists"? just curious... I don't really communicate with other photographers about models, or about anything. I kind of stay over here near the beach by myself and away from the drama. well theres a lesson to live by.. Jul 21 05 03:31 pm Link Luckily I haven't had to start a black list. Hopefully i will never have one. :~) Jul 21 05 03:35 pm Link Hi Doug, MUAS and models I know, have worked with, and trust their opinion are my best sources for new and/or unknown photographers. Then again, comments/complaints like, "he/she is a grouch or crotchety or a flirt, or silent as a tomb or not much fun"...have no effect and hold no weight whatsoever as to whether I will work with them or not. Mollie Jul 21 05 03:39 pm Link Posted by Leila: That is the best attitude! If someone does something illegal to you, then it the police you tell right away. If someone is a flake or has poor business principles, it does not mean that they can't change. If you put them on a "black list" then that means you don't think people can change. Jul 21 05 03:47 pm Link Man, I am gone the entire day and I miss a thread that was generated from Doug and my conversation. I honestly think it is very important for not only models to keep other models informed about photographers and photographers to keep other photographers informed but also models to keep photographers informed tooand vice a versa. Most photographers have a core of several models that they use more then once and those models have worked with other models so they can let a photographer know if they are good or not. I have a shoot coming up with a model that I really have been wanting to work with but who normally only does paid shoots. But because a model I work with told me to contact her and use her name I now have a shoot lined up with her. As a photographer I tell the other photographers in this area that I have worked with a model and I think they might like to work with her or to possibly be careful of a particular model. I've also suggested to some models that they might want to get in touch with certain photographers because I think they have a look that another local photographer would want to work with. It's the exact reason why there is this forum to open the lines of communication so everyone might be able to benefit from that knowledge. Speech concluded, now back to your regularly scheduled program. Chris Jul 21 05 03:58 pm Link Everyone has had been experiences with others. Some of us may have had a bad day that day or had something going on in our lives that made us act differently than normal (both photographers and models). There's also just the fact that sometimes me and a photographer may not mesh. We're all just people in the end and there's even been photographers that I had problems with, but we've "made up" so to speak and worked together again. I don't share my bad stories and don't tell anyone who they should or shouldn't work with. That's not professional in any way, shape, or form. I'm always willing to working with someone again, unless I had to press criminal charges of course, which I've never had to do in the past five and a half years lol. As for me, I'm on a million black lists, and that's ok. If people want to listen to others instead of coming to their own conclusions by working with me themselves or talking something out with me, nothing I can do about it. Jul 21 05 04:14 pm Link Posted by Myla Chenoa: I agree with a lot of what you say but it can be tough to get past first impression. Also, if a model no shows without an explanation then as a photographer I feel that I need to let other photographer know this. If she did it to me then what stops her from doing it to him. A lot of what I think spawned Doug to put up this thread is there are models, as well as photographers, out there that are extremely unprofessional. And there are some models out there that think because they are pretty the world should be handed to them on a platter. They don't think they need to pay their dues and do TFP shoots and learn their craft. They just want to get paid. As a photographer, I know that I have to do a lot of TFP/TFCD shoots to learn my craft, build a reputation and most importantly create a portfolio that I can use to get those paying gigs. Jul 21 05 05:00 pm Link Posted by MYA: (thought bubble) mental note: put mya on "double secret probation"... Jul 21 05 05:03 pm Link Posted by mollie_lane: im sorry mollie...i couldn't even read your post...i just kinda get all warm,fuzzy and dorky when your around... Jul 21 05 05:04 pm Link Posted by Christopher Wright: Posted by Myla Chenoa: I agree with a lot of what you say but it can be tough to get past first impression. Also, if a model no shows without an explanation then as a photographer I feel that I need to let other photographer know this. If she did it to me then what stops her from doing it to him. A lot of what I think spawned Doug to put up this thread is there are models, as well as photographers, out there that are extremely unprofessional. And there are some models out there that think because they are pretty the world should be handed to them on a platter. They don't think they need to pay their dues and do TFP shoots and learn their craft. They just want to get paid. As a photographer, I know that I have to do a lot of TFP/TFCD shoots to learn my craft, build a reputation and most importantly create a portfolio that I can use to get those paying gigs. Personally, I think both points have merit. On one hand it's good to know what you're getting into if at all possible, so it's good to communicate (but be careful of slander, some things are simply a matter of perspective). On the other hand, people do have off days and in most instances probably deserve to be given a second chance. Jul 21 05 05:37 pm Link Posted by Jessika Rae: Like I said, you'll get your pics when you release the twins!!!! Jul 21 05 05:37 pm Link Posted by Doug Swinskey: Posted by mollie_lane: im sorry mollie...i couldn't even read your post...i just kinda get all warm,fuzzy and dorky when your around... LOL@warm, fuzzy, and dorky...Sounds like low sugar...go eat a loaded pizza for goodness sakes dahlllllllllin heart! Jul 21 05 05:47 pm Link Great post Doug. Ok so we all have someone in the industry that we wouldn't work with and or recommend to others. We also have those that we praise for their efforts, communication skills and or just raw talent. Besides communication with others what would discourage a model from shooting with a photographer? Likewise with a photographer shooting a model? I mean if all you have to go on is say an email suggesting the desire to work with you, after looking over ones profile (providing they have one) why would or wouldn't you? Is not replying to a request an example of ones professionalism? Jul 21 05 06:46 pm Link Person: "Hi, I'd like to open up a checking account" Teller: "That's great! Have you ever banked with CAL-Fees-Up-The-Ying-Yang before?" Person: "A long time ago, but that was when I was younger, dumber and full of cum. Your basic run-of-the-mill, fresh-off-the-grad-stage idiot." Teller: "Well, why don't we get started by giving me your specifics. First and last name?" Person: "Okay, my name is Pierre DeSuave, blah, blah, blah" Teller: *looks up "Pierre DeSuave" and gets a list of people who are on the black list* Teller: "I'm sorry Mr. DeSuave, but I'm afraid I can't open an account for you today" Person: "Why not?!" Teller: "Well, it appears that when you were a customer, you kinda-sorta had a way of bouncing checks and flirting with the pretty tellers. So, I'm sorry." Person: "Um, okay. Pssh. Thanks anyway" Teller: *watching customer leave the building* "...loser" Person: *Puts Treasury check for $10,000 back into his wallet and goes to the check cashing place down the street.* Jul 21 05 06:57 pm Link |
