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Tearsheets Or Pay?
I currently work for a magazine and for the past two months i've been shooting models that are getting tearsheets and site promotion for compensation. Personally I find that to be a good deal, especially seeing how the magazine is new. Would you rather have that or a measly $200? Personally, give me the tears/promo. Jul 20 05 03:22 am Link Is the magazine giving you the choice or is this a hypothetical question? Jul 20 05 03:40 am Link In general, tearsheets don't pay the bills. IMHO It's not as simple as tearsheet v pay. It depends on which tearsheet. If it is, say, some niche rag that just wants a bit of T&A to spice up their otherwise dull content then take the cash. If however it is a magazine with genuine aspirations that fall in line with what you & the models want - for example a fashion conscious lifestyle title with targeted readership and the makings of good advertising coverage (ie potential clients read it) then it might be worthwhile. Further to that, significant bonus for shooting editorial fashion unpaid is that the magazine's pulling power for clothes, locations props etc is far greater than if you were shooting a test - your stylist will actually have something to work with. So, if you are aiming to shoot fashion you should get better pictures purely because you have a better team. However watch out for advertisers being offered free use of your pics by the magazine. Jul 20 05 03:47 am Link Posted by piers: Actually tears DO pay the bills, for once you have them, it only leads to paying assignments IF the model or her agency works it the right way. In this instance, it also draws more attention to the model. Jul 20 05 03:53 am Link Posted by Monsante Bey: My accountant, bank manager, trade suppliers, grocery store etc all disagree with you. Jul 20 05 03:58 am Link Posted by piers: Posted by Monsante Bey: My accountant, bank manager, trade suppliers, grocery store etc all disagree with you. I agree. I see Monsante bey's point, though not sure why he can't answer my question. But if the tear is terrible it will not lead anywhere but maybe to more terrible free work. Jul 20 05 04:01 am Link If you feel that it's worth it, then do it. If the magazine is small, but has potential, try it out and see how things go. As for myself, I'm tired of working for tearsheets, but I still do it for credits. The thing that gets me is when you don't get credits. Bastards! I need money. Jul 20 05 07:23 am Link Posted by Monsante Bey: $200 trumps a 20¢ magazine page, but you obviously intend to convince models otherwise. Jul 20 05 07:34 am Link Posted by XtremeArtists: Posted by Monsante Bey: $200 trumps a 20¢ magazine page, but you obviously intend to convince models otherwise. I did not see that coming since I was working in the middle of the night. I did wonder why you ask a question then argue with the first responder and ignore the other. Jul 20 05 09:00 am Link What Piers said. It depends on the tear sheet. I get a bunch of offers from guys asking me to work for "exposure." I'm not sure who I'm being exposed to, but I'm pretty sure they're never going to pay me either. I know it may not look like it, but I gotta eat. I have a couple of terrible "tears" that I would gladly sell for a couple hundred dollars. Personally, seeing as the magazine is new, the tear is usually going to be worth less. A tear in a well-established publication is worth more than a new publication that may never really get off the ground. Jul 20 05 10:50 am Link This is silly. If the mag pays you $200 and still publishes the image, you have both the money and the tearsheet. Now, you may not find the tearsheet itself a worthy addition to your portfolio. Many aren't. But adding the name of the mag to the resume is just about as helpful, so long as you have some good tears to show clients. If you have them listed, and none shown, then your credibility comes into question. If the mag offers pay, take it. And have fun with the tearsheet when that arrives too. To Piers... you are right that the tear itself doesn't pay bills, but it seems you can't jobs that get you published until you prove you can get published. I've gotten a lot of jobs, including paying mag tears, as a result of one tear I have. Another tear has gotten a bunch of different (paying) work. I likely wouldn't have these without the tears. Jul 20 05 10:56 am Link Posted by EmElle: Silly me indeed, I actually read it along the lines of 'Even if the mag won't pay, say, $200 cash the tearsheet always makes it worth while'. Jul 20 05 11:14 am Link Posted by EmElle: Read much. Hey, this is ENGLISH. Jul 20 05 11:19 am Link Maybe I missed it. What was your question? But you know what, I see things further than NOW. I look at future endeavors. Try it, you might like it. As far as "terrible tears," Look at my work, does it LOOK like I would produce a terrible tear? Jul 20 05 11:22 am Link British Vogue? Give me the tear. Some college kid's glorified zine? I'll take the $200. (This is what I would consider a "terrible tear".) Jul 20 05 11:41 am Link Posted by Monsante Bey: Do you really want an answer to this question? Jul 20 05 11:49 am Link Posted by theda: I would say it is both your answer and the quality of the image. But if the client gets a model who is a dog and you have to shoot in a closet with a bad tacky outfit then maybe even that shot in British Vogue is not something you might want to show. Jul 20 05 11:57 am Link Posted by Brian Diaz: Ding Ding Ding Jul 20 05 11:58 am Link Posted by XtremeArtists: You rang. Jul 20 05 12:00 pm Link Oh now we're trying to talk shit... Ok, I see what's up now. Jul 20 05 12:03 pm Link I was talking bell. Jul 20 05 12:08 pm Link I'm just starting out. I'd take a tear anyday (even a bad one), just because the more the merrier. (I've honestly had more luck getting my stuff published than the photographers who shoot it.) But with currently being unemployed, I'd probably take the $200 instead. Sometimes it's just a matter of the situation. Jul 20 05 12:45 pm Link Posted by Monsante Bey: IZM? Jul 20 05 07:25 pm Link like snoop and don juan would probably say... "keep it Ca$h and Carry fo' shizzle dizzle, mah nizzlez" Models, make sure your finances in order. I don't know much about tearsheets, but doesn't a publication have to give the model some sort of credit if they publish her in their magazine? If so, then the model can cop her own copy of the mag she's in and still have some change left over... Off course, this wouldn't be the case with like a Bacardi ad or something of that nature... but those models are paid as well. A small magazine that can ONLY afford to either cough up a tearsheet or $200... I'd want the $200, no doubt. Now a mag like Elle or Vogue... I am sure they can afford to give the model some cash AND a tearsheet. ClevelandSlim p.s. someone that knows please send me a personal message describing exactly what a tearsheet is and what its best functions are for the model... Jul 21 05 02:31 pm Link You know what, i'm a go back to that slam Theda and Jack did about my work, because I had to breathe for a minute before I got banned. You want to slam my work? Well take this into consideration. Both of your profiles lack creativity. I've been in print SEVERAL times. Just based off my camera alone, I have lived in a 2,600 sq ft loft at $1,700 a month not counting utilities and incidentals, paid for my Explorer within 6 months and WASN'T scraping by before I put myself in hiatus due to personal reasons. Hell I BARELY left the joint to do ANYTHING. I had Falcons, Hawks players, cheerleaders, personell people, etc... All coming through to my parties or just to hang out and shoot pool and play video games. You don't know me. I was befriended by the best and the envy of a lot of photogs in my circle back then who are doing big and exciting things now because I pushed them to do those things. Of course, you two wouldn't know this because you're just in your closed little boxes thinking you know everything. Playing "Neal and Bob" to each other. So the next time you think about running your mouth about someone like you're the utmost authority, just shut up. Jul 21 05 03:45 pm Link Now, Marketing 101; By Monsante Bey If you're a young hopeful or a crafty veteran, you know the value of tears and advertising. The whole reason I brought the thread up because I know the value of tears and credit. With the two hand in hand, A model can use it to her advantage if she does it wisely. Collect $200 and Pass Go: So you decided to take the money from a mag that's out of state and not in your area. What good is that? Sure, you can ask that they send you a free/promo copy, but will they? Who knows. By the time you've probably left the airport, you've already blown $50 on food and entertainment. If you have some free time and hit the mall, that's another $100 gone, so what exactly do you have to show for it, a new outfit? Cool. So you're money is spent and you have practically nothing to show for it. Or you paid your cell phone bill and still have nothing to show for it. That leaves you azzed out all around. Tearsheet and Promotion: You're internet based, you shoot for a mag and you take this deal with the true promise of tears and promo. You get your tears and promo... Now what? What happens is that those who buy/receive the mag see you. If they like your look, they'll hit you up and you have something for your book that's legit. If you're a model with a paysite, this is incredibly good fortune for you because marketing is KEY for you. Tears are GREAT for your site and real world advertising, for it shows that you are indeed marketable and worth looking at. It attracts a wider, broader audience to your site, and we all know that at least 10% of your visitors will become members for at LEAST one month. 10% of 1,000 x $20 = $2,000 (guestimation of visitors) that month. If you're site content is hot enough, you'll keep at least 3% of them, 5% at the most. That's still good money. Now from those tears and visitors, that alerts other CHECK WRITERS to your presence. They'll of course contact you if they like you, which leads to OTHER ventures that if you market it right, puts you right back where you began with 10% of 1,000. One thing those of you with member sites must understand is that the more interaction with your members, the better. Those lame ole "once a month" webcam shows are dead, 3 times a week is more of an attracting offer and brings in more members as your active ones spread the word that you're on doing "whatever" every other night. Also don't be afraid to deversify your site. The same old g/g crap is tired and lame. Throw a GUY into it. Not saying you have to bang him, hell he can just be some ripped guy in jockeys, long as you keep it respectable (if that's your goal with your members site) then the fantasy will continue to attract. One of the hottest sets I have is the b/g embrace, it's been one of my top shoots since I hit Ohio and it's non nude. ADVERTISE!!!! Don't be afraid or too cheap to buy a half page ad in the local girlie, hair or party mags/circulars, because that's where guys will LOOK first. NEVER put your phone number on it or your site though. People will see your advert and check you out. My best friend has advertised in Black Mens, Smooth, XXL, etc and has watched his video business triple overnight from his full page adverts, and he was making about 200K beforehand. Imagine what you could do by venturing out into the real world and doing the same thing as a pretty female can accomplish? This business is about making MONEY, not just taking pretty pics and having lame ass net people that you'll never meet or will never hire you "ooo" and "ahh" over them. You have to market yourself accordingly and get your name out there. Even if it's in your own city. Get people talking about you be it good or bad, just get your name in their mouth. Personally I think a lot of Mike Jones raps suck, but I know his name (and cell# lol) and can be caught singing his two most popular hooks because of his marketing. One thing you MUST realize though is that it MUST be something catchy. Giving yourself a stripper name is NOT catchy, it's cheap and tawdry. You have to get yourself a theme/nitch a great easy flowing name and stick with it. Angel Tara, Jillian Ann, IMODELZ, etc... Those names flow off the tongue and are rememberable. Lastly, photography. If the photographer isn't creative, spends his time shooting backdrops, it's not going to be good for your site unless you're putting up a profile/portrait site. Everyone has done "the original" thing, but there's nothing new under the sun. Your photos MUST stand out. You MUST spend money in order to make your ideas come to life and MAKE that money come back to you tenfold. Just being nude, half nude is not enough. There has to be an allure to it. Even those with portfolio sites, you need shots that capture the minds eye. Take Paul of Pauls Portraits, he's my buddy. His photos capture the soft innocence of every model he's shot and his lighting is on point, and if he released his nudes he'd be killer based on that criteria alone. If I was a model looking to do portfolio shots for such type of site, if the photogs work didn't compare or was better than his, I'd pass, simple as that. Basically it all comes down to finding your nitch and working with it to your advantage. If you can't do that, find someone who can and let them do their job or just retire. I have more I could say, but this is long enough. Jul 21 05 04:23 pm Link I didn't actually slam you. You just assumed it was all about you and got your panties in a bunch. Frankly, I do not care how big your dick... um... apartment is or how much it costs or who you know. I am unimpressed. No matter how great you think you are, believe me when I tell you I've seen better. The fact remains, some tears are worth it and some are not. There is such a thing as bad publicity. But really, how often is a model (or anyone) going to get direct contact information printed along with the photo? Not very often. I have tears and do you know how many people have contacted me based on those tears? ZERO. Becasue they're terrible tears. The real purpose of a tearsheet for those of us not promoting paysites is to prove ourselves publishable models, photographers, MUAs, crackwhores, etc. If the publication is Fred's Li'll Book of Boobies, it's not worth the paper it's printed on. Jul 21 05 04:42 pm Link And see just like that, you lost the whole scope of what the "Marketing 101" post was about as well as the one before it.... Just like a woman without a leg to stand on to make a comment on genitalia. (Girl if he touch/say something to me, i'll kick him in the balls) *rolls eyes* And yes i'll be the first to admit that there's better photographers than me. But this isn't about me, i'm doing MY thing and it works for me well enough to make VERY good living off of. Bottom line, stay on the topic and leave the personal attacks to the rookies, aight? I don't have time for that. Jul 21 05 05:53 pm Link I thought you were talking about tear sheets, not why you should put guys in jockeys on your website. What you also didn't mention is that with the $200, you can also buy a copy of the magazine your work is in. And use the money to advertise. Jul 21 05 06:37 pm Link You guys have got to quit,... I just blew slobber all over my monitor from laughter... (dribble) Jul 21 05 07:06 pm Link Posted by Brian Diaz: I went into a whole seperate thread entirely, i'll repost it in a bit. Jul 21 05 08:02 pm Link As someone having had a paysite (and been in and out of that industry lots), it isn't that easy. Pretty much only the nude/half-nude models get any business. *VERY* few girls can do non-nude these days and make any cash. I was published around the same time I had my site running. You know how much sales increase I got? Zip! I've found that me selling hand-made accessories brings more cash in the door and requires less effort than running a paysite. I know someone that recently applied to SuicideGirls, I told her that if she wanted to pose nude for money she could make more in a year doing it legit for real photogs than waiting for SG to paypal her $300 (if they even accepted her set). Jul 21 05 09:52 pm Link Posted by 00Philip00: Would you say that we have you in tears? Jul 21 05 11:42 pm Link Now I'm just a local N. California photographer, but everytime I have received a "tear" it's been for a paying job. Even in editorial situations where the pay scale is significantly less than commercial work, we still received tears and $$$ but in those instances it was for a publication that got good distribution throughout most of my working area... so the lower pay scale was reasonable. I am not sure I see much value in a tear in lieu of $$$. I can only guess that the publication's distribution and reader base would make it worthwhile... but if they are making a profit (or if that is their intent) then why not pay the talent? Jul 22 05 12:17 am Link The quality of the publication from which one receives a tear is really what matters. Nothing more, nothing less. If there's $$$ involved all the better. There are many cases where editorial doesn't pay squat...but there could be some inherent worth...but, read the first line I wrote. It's the substantiation of the tear, not the tear itself. I have a tear sheet from "Pen World" magazine (yes a magazine that focuses on writing implements!). That and $3.60 will get me and a model a Venti of the day at Starbucks...WhoooHoooo! I wonder, Mr. Monsante, if you took your short board for a paddle on the Ohio River and then brought it Hermosa Beach do you think you could convince those scopin' the tubes you are a surfer based on that storied lore? It's all in the credibility of the waves, man...the credibility of the waves. Jul 22 05 12:22 am Link Posted by EmElle: You are right about "pay" from magazines because many do pay an editorial rate. It's not as much as getting paid for a commercial shoot that is meant as an ad campaign, but still it's something. Jul 22 05 12:28 am Link Posted by Monsante Bey: Maybe I am missing something, but is there EVER, EVER a reason to go on about what you make, how cool you are etc. and etc... Is this the kind of impression you want to give other MM members... and Theda is right(God I hate to admit that) but I have seen way better work... are you serious? Don't Answer... just go away. Jul 22 05 12:29 am Link Posted by RStephenT: Because they are human scum. Jul 22 05 12:33 am Link Posted by RStephenT: Posted by Monsante Bey: Maybe I am missing something, but is there EVER, EVER a reason to go on about what you make, how cool you are etc. and etc... Is this the kind of impression you want to give other MM members... and Theda is right(God I hate to admit that) but I have seen way better work... are you serious? Don't Answer... just go away. What? Huh? Someone thinks they are cooler than the rest of us? Hummm ... well I know what it's like to be dead ... it don't get any colder than that! LOL Jul 22 05 12:34 am Link Posted by area291: Nothing more, nothing less. Poop, it is. Jul 22 05 12:40 am Link |
