Mike Cummings wrote:
The model has already "paid" for the shoot and the photos to be provided.

I agree.  The model pays in advance for a TFP, and although no cash is being exchanged, the deal isn't less valuable or a lower priority.

BCI Photo wrote:
I say all work takes priority.
I return everything within 7 days of the shoot.

I don't spend hours upon hours in photoshop.... What type of crap ass photographer does that???? I can see if you're trying to create some uber special effect on a photo or two. But if you rely THAT heavily on PS in order to produce a quality image.... Your work is shit on a stick. The magic is created through the lens, not in PS.

I'm with BCI on this one too.  I'm not that good with Photoshop but even if
I were, I wouldn't want to not only spend hours on a shoot then hours more
preparing images for free.  If someones paying me its the same.  I give people
what I promise quickly.

Brandon Smith wrote:
As a model... I agree with the above.  I've had a few photograhers who've gotten images back either in a timely manner or in the amount of time they've promised.  However, there are two out there with whom I shot with in March that still offer up a great excuse instead of sending out those photos :-( So to that I say... if you don't have the time, don't do the crime.... Does that sound right?  But really don't make promises you can't keep or don't think you can keep.  Under promise, over deliver.  And when you get the photos to the model 2 weeks before you said you would, feel great that you're not going to get badmouthed ;-)

Sorry I could not pass on the Beretta reference.

KM von Seidl wrote:
Isn't this one of those been there done that negative threads everyone keeps complaining about?

Not sure it's a negative thread. We all seem to be in agreement that TFP / TFCD should have the same priority as all out paid.

KM von Seidl wrote:
Isn't this one of those been there done that negative threads everyone keeps complaining about?

Different angle, why have you used this excuse before?

Mike Cummings wrote:

Sorry I could not pass on the Beretta reference.

I love it!!

Mike Cummings wrote:

Different angle, why have you used this excuse before?

No.  I've used different ones.  Far more inventive.   Usually involving aliens and dinosaurs.


Back to my point, I keep seeing threads by people talking about the repeating negativity on MM threads.  About photographers bashing models and other photographers.   So, I found it curious to see such a thread.

Macabre World wrote:

Not sure it's a negative thread. We all seem to be in agreement that TFP / TFCD should have the same priority as all out paid.

Three clamshells and 22 grains of sand says that it has the great potential of turning into a real pros vs. GWC thread, with most of the posters talking about fast turn around putting themselves into the real pros category.   I could be wrong, let's wait and see.

KM von Seidl wrote:

No.  I've used different ones.  Far more inventive.   Usually involving aliens and dinosaurs.


Back to my point, I keep seeing threads by people talking about the repeating negativity on MM threads.  About photographers bashing models and other photographers.   So, I found it curious to see such a thread.

My dinosaur ate my alien.....

I did not want to bash anyone so instead of replying with this in a thread I created my own. I want to hear for the pros that do use this excuse, they can tell me where or if I am wrong.

KM von Seidl wrote:

Mike Cummings wrote:
Different angle, why have you used this excuse before?

No.  I've used different ones.  Far more inventive.   Usually involving aliens and dinosaurs.


lol thats funny.

Mike Cummings wrote:

My dinosaur ate my alien.....

I did not want to bash anyone so instead of replying with this in a thread I created my own. I want to hear for the pros that do use this excuse, they can tell me where or if I am wrong.

Fine.  In the mean time there is a positive thread dying a quiet death folks might want to participate in...

https://www.modelmayhem.com/posts.php?thread_id=53342

BCI Photo wrote:
The magic is created through the lens, not in PS.

I had a recent shoot where I got a shot of my client on a couch in her living room and unfortunately the walls behind her head were lime green and the couch was more of a beige/tan color. Naturally it didn't match but the photo came out great. So I spent four hours pixel editing and creating a couple colored mask layers in Photoshop to change the color of the wall behind her. Hand editing the pixels in a high resolution photo near someone's hair can take a while if you're a perfectionist like me. These had to be enlarged and printed so it had to be done right.

I guess I could have used a wrinkled sheet for a background instead but I know my skill set and knew I could make a mediocre picture look professional.

Most professional Photoshop editing involves careful editing to remove undesirable elements in a photo that were missed during the shoot. Of course, a patient and careful eye greatly minimizes those problems but sometimes a camera lens is very capable of picking up the most minute details when the strobe goes off that your eye will have missed under normal lighting. Single hairs out of place are often overlooked during a shoot.

BCI Photo wrote:
I say all work takes priority.
I return everything within 7 days of the shoot.

I don't spend hours upon hours in photoshop.... What type of crap ass photographer does that???? I can see if you're trying to create some uber special effect on a photo or two. But if you rely THAT heavily on PS in order to produce a quality image.... Your work is shit on a stick. The magic is created through the lens, not in PS.

I'm the kind of "crap Ass" photographer of which you bash. But sometimes it's just becasue I get SO MANY great images to clean up and sometimes it's because the models pics completely different images to clean up and sometimes it's becasue the model wants EVERY thing she sees as an imperfection cleaned up and sometimes it's because I do a lot of compositiong in my work and so on and so forth. And I Still take less than a week in most cases. Besides, I also give the models a DVD of EVERYTHING in the shoot at the end of the session so the model has some control over the length of time it takes to finish a TFCD.
Mike

Mike Walker wrote:

I'm the kind of "crap Ass" photographer of which you bash. But sometimes it's just becasue I get SO MANY great images to clean up and sometimes it's because the models pics completely different images to clean up and sometimes it's becasue the model wants EVERY thing she sees as an imperfection cleaned up and sometimes it's because I do a lot of compositiong in my work and so on and so forth. And I Still take less than a week in most cases. Besides, I also give the models a DVD of EVERYTHING in the shoot at the end of the session so the model has some control over the length of time it takes to finish a TFCD.
Mike

That's when you charge per pic.

Sand Angel wrote:

I had a recent shoot where I got a shot of my client on a couch in her living room and unfortunately the walls behind her head were lime green and the couch was more of a beige/tan color. Naturally it didn't match but the photo came out great. So I spent four hours pixel editing and creating a couple colored mask layers in Photoshop to change the color of the wall behind her. Hand editing the pixels in a high resolution photo near someone's hair can take a while if you're a perfectionist like me. These had to be enlarged and printed so it had to be done right.

I guess I could have used a wrinkled sheet for a background instead but I know my skill set and knew I could make a mediocre picture look professional.

Most professional Photoshop editing involves careful editing to remove undesirable elements in a photo that were missed during the shoot. Of course, a patient and careful eye greatly minimizes those problems but sometimes a camera lens is very capable of picking up the most minute details when the strobe goes off that your eye will have missed under normal lighting. Single hairs out of place are often overlooked during a shoot.

That's because you had to.

Both of you misunderstand me. So i'll let an offshoot jeff Foxworthy impersonation help you out.

You shouldn't have done the shoot....

If the models skin is so bad that you have to go over every single pic to remove her pimple scars.

Your lighting is so piss poor, you have to go into PS and change it.

You don't know how to crop with your camera, so all shots are full body shots with the edges of your backdrop plainly visible.

You have to crop out your thumb.

The images are blurred, so you use the sharp feature.

You have to smooth her skin out in every single shot because you think it looks cool.

Sand Angel wrote:
I agree with the original post. You should know your abilities and be able to give a fairly accurate estimate of the time it will take to your customer before you do the job. And giving unpaid work a lower priority over paid work is not a good practice. Unpaid work should be treated the same level of care as paid work. If for no other reason is that it is another opportunity to practice and refine your process and become a better photographer.

I am with you except for the "if for no other reason" part.

My "if for no other reason" is, you accepted the models time as compensation for your work. It is a paying gig, even if it is barter. By the same token the model accepted your photos as payment for his/her time. As photographers we expect if not demand that TFP models show up on time, behave, and do thier jobs. We should be expected to do ours.

Would we work with models that were hours late because a paying gig came along?

Tony Lawrence wrote:

I'm with BCI on this one too.  I'm not that good with Photoshop but even if
I were, I wouldn't want to not only spend hours on a shoot then hours more
preparing images for free.  If someones paying me its the same.  I give people
what I promise quickly.

DeathbyNew-Wave wrote:
Paid work should be priority. How do you think the photographer pays their bills?
I usually go for tfcd;then they can burn it for me right then and there.Prints shouldnt take too long either.Unless of course they have no assistants.
I'd say no longer than a week or two.

If they burn the CD on the spot they are not PhotoShoping the images. Thefore won't need to make an excuse on how long it is taking them.

BCI Photo wrote:
I don't spend hours upon hours in photoshop.... What type of crap ass photographer does that????

The same kind of crap ass photographer who would spend hours upon hours in the darkroom.

Post production can be done in two ways: quickly or well.

(Okay, technically, post can be done both slowly and poorly, but we won't worry about that right now...)

Mike Cummings wrote:
If you are a pro, you should know the average amount of time it takes you to edit a photoshoot, after all it is your business. To my thinking you should return the photos to the model within your normal time frame no matter if you have paid work or not. The model has already "paid" for the shoot and the photos to be provided.

Yes, you should know the average, but if you're a freelancer, you know that sometimes your schedule is unpredictable.  And typically, rush jobs pay more, so free work just has to be pushed to the back burner.

Mike Cummings wrote:
Would we work with models that were hours late because a paying gig came along?

Yes.  The model who has to reschedule a free test because Vogue calls at the last minute and needs to see her today is one with whom I want to work.

Brian Diaz wrote:

Yes, you should know the average, but if you're a freelancer, you know that sometimes your schedule is unpredictable.  And typically, rush jobs pay more, so free work just has to be pushed to the back burner.

Maybe that is the difference, I see TFP as paid (in full) work, not free. To me free work would be the pics you took at Aunt Martha's birthday party that you promised copies of.

Brian Diaz wrote:

Yes.  The model who has to reschedule a free test because Vogue calls at the last minute and needs to see her today is one with whom I want to work.

But what if this same model showed up hours late instead of rescheduling? Is that not the complaint of the models, the photographer will not give them a timeframe for their payment on the TFP?

Mike Cummings wrote:

Maybe that is the difference, I see TFP as paid (in full) work, not free. To me free work would be the pics you took at Aunt Martha's birthday party that you promised copies of.

Of course you have to allow the nature of your business to designate priorities.  If you want to tell your paying clients that their photos won't be ready when they want them because you have some TFP pix to retouch first, be my guest.  For me, that's not a wise business decision.

Mike Cummings wrote:

But what if this same model showed up hours late instead of rescheduling? Is that not the complaint of the models, the photographer will not give them a timeframe for their payment on the TFP?

Showing up late is wrong.  A phone call is in order there.  If a photographer is going to take a little more time with retouching photos, that should be communicated.

Brian Diaz wrote:

Of course you have to allow the nature of your business to designate priorities.  If you want to tell your paying clients that their photos won't be ready when they want them because you have some TFP pix to retouch first, be my guest.  For me, that's not a wise business decision.

I think I know you well enough to say you would contact the TFP model and tell them that their photos would not be ready when they wanted them because of a rush job.

Let me ask you this, would you bump one paid job for another? Would you tell one client they have to wait on their photos because another client wants their photos first?

Brian Diaz wrote:

Showing up late is wrong.  A phone call is in order there.  If a photographer is going to take a little more time with retouching photos, that should be communicated.

Agreed.

Mike Cummings wrote:
Let me ask you this, would you bump one paid job for another? Would you tell one client they have to wait on their photos because another client wants their photos first?

There are a number of variables that would affect that decision, including budget, potential for future work, the clients' deadlines, whether one client was rude to me, etc.

Brian Diaz wrote:

Yes, you should know the average, but if you're a freelancer, you know that sometimes your schedule is unpredictable.  And typically, rush jobs pay more, so free work just has to be pushed to the back burner.

That said, when predicting timelines and making promises, it's often better to give yourself wide margins.  If you think that you'll need 2 weeks to finish a job, say that you need 4, and when it's delivered in 3, the receiving party is especially happy.

Brian Diaz wrote:

That said, when predicting timelines and making promises, it's often better to give yourself wide margins.  If you think that you'll need 2 weeks to finish a job, say that you need 4, and when it's delivered in 3, the receiving party is especially happy.

The wise business model. Under promise and over deliver.