Looknsee Photography wrote:
Yes, stop wasting the time of the forum, and while you are at it, grow up a bit.

A model is entitled to ask for compensation.
You are entitled to decline.
Leave it at that.

Whining & complaining to this forum makes you look conceited & unprofessional.  Move on.

Persist, and you are inviting unkind comments on the value of your portfolio images (I haven't looked; I'm just saying that that's what happens when fools make fun of models who want to get paid.)

Perfect....

Sagacity Studios wrote:
Ok this has been talked about a million times on this site so i don't expect nor require anyone to post further on this subject....of course you can if you want.

Came accross a new models profile today.

No experience.

No proffesional photos.

Fours pics my great great grandfather could have taken....he is dead by the way ;-).

No references or credits.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder but very average looking, nothing striking, not tall.

But of course PAID ASSIGNMENTS ONLY........................LOL


I'm done!

This is so nosey of me, but is there any way you could message me their mm#.  VERY curious to see who your talking about.  Totally understand if you don't feel comfortable doing that though.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
Yes, stop wasting the time of the forum, and while you are at it, grow up a bit.

A model is entitled to ask for compensation.
You are entitled to decline.
Leave it at that.

Whining & complaining to this forum makes you look conceited & unprofessional.  Move on.

Persist, and you are inviting unkind comments on the value of your portfolio images (I haven't looked; I'm just saying that that's what happens when fools make fun of models who want to get paid.)

Wow. Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed?

Looknsee Photography wrote:
Yes, stop wasting the time of the forum, and while you are at it, grow up a bit.

A model is entitled to ask for compensation.
You are entitled to decline.
Leave it at that.

Whining & complaining to this forum makes you look conceited & unprofessional.  Move on.

Persist, and you are inviting unkind comments on the value of your portfolio images (I haven't looked; I'm just saying that that's what happens when fools make fun of models who want to get paid.)

What Fun Productions wrote:
Wow. Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed?

Quite possibly.  I'm just tired of photographers bashing models who want to be paid.

I happen to think that TFCD is a bad deal for models.  Many of the models I work with are full time students, which means that they live like students, possibly have a part time minimum wage job, and struggle to keep their car running.  They often don't have much spare time at all & can't find enough modeling jobs to justify their time.  Typically, they have to supply their own makeup & wardrobe.  They have to arrange transportation.  They have to pay for Internet access.  In other words, they have expenses.  And in return, they get a number of image (the number chosen by the photographer), of a size chosen by the photographer, at a compression rate chosen by the photographer, editing to the photographer's taste, and typically with the photographer's name (and not their name) plastered all over the image.  They can't license the image.  They can't publish the image.  Heck, officially, they even need permission from the photographer to post their images in on-line portfolios.

Meanwhile, the photographer gets to keep the copyright!  He can edit it as he wants.  He can publish it.  He can license it.  He can use the session to explore & experiment.  If he wants, he can take the model's face & paste it onto a walrus' body.  If he is a professional or semi-professional, he can even deduct the cost of the sitting.  Advantage:  photographer.

Worse, I hate the photographers who bemoan their expenses (admittedly, the OP didn't do that here).  They cry about how expensive their cameras & equipments are.  They moan about how expensive it is to rent or maintain a studio.  Yet, they won't even squeeze out an additonal 2% of pre-tax, tax deductable funds for modeling fees.

Look:  lesson one of any business education is that the deals you walk away from can be as significant to your success as the deals you make.  If your client won't pay you the money you want, it is best to be polite & walk away & not burn bridges, because you never know whether your paths will cross again.  But here, the OP's attitude is that the model's request for paying work is shameful or ridiculous.  Hardly!  Some models just need to be compensated.  He doesn't have to be the one who pays them, but to trot them out in public for some ridicule is immature.  He's welcome to work only with models who will pay him or who will work for free/TFCD, but in my book, if he's invested in cameras & equipment, he might as well be invested in models.  It doesn't take much to encourage anyone, including a model, and it's definitely good karma to be generous.

Sagacity Studios wrote:
Ok this has been talked about a million times on this site so i don't expect nor require anyone to post further on this subject....of course you can if you want.

Came accross a new models profile today.

No experience.

No proffesional photos.

Fours pics my great great grandfather could have taken....he is dead by the way ;-).

No references or credits.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder but very average looking, nothing striking, not tall.

But of course PAID ASSIGNMENTS ONLY........................LOL


I'm done!

If your great grandfather can vote in some states.. why can't he take photos?

Looknsee Photography wrote:

Looknsee Photography wrote:
Yes, stop wasting the time of the forum, and while you are at it, grow up a bit.

A model is entitled to ask for compensation.
You are entitled to decline.
Leave it at that.

Whining & complaining to this forum makes you look conceited & unprofessional.  Move on.

Persist, and you are inviting unkind comments on the value of your portfolio images (I haven't looked; I'm just saying that that's what happens when fools make fun of models who want to get paid.)

Quite possibly.  I'm just tired of photographers bashing models who want to be paid.

I happen to think that TFCD is a bad deal for models.  Many of the models I work with are full time students, which means that they live like students, possibly have a part time minimum wage job, and struggle to keep their car running.  They often don't have much spare time at all & can't find enough modeling jobs to justify their time.  Typically, they have to supply their own makeup & wardrobe.  They have to arrange transportation.  They have to pay for Internet access.  In other words, they have expenses.  And in return, they get a number of image (the number chosen by the photographer), of a size chosen by the photographer, at a compression rate chosen by the photographer, editing to the photographer's taste, and typically with the photographer's name (and not their name) plastered all over the image.  They can't license the image.  They can't publish the image.  Heck, officially, they even need permission from the photographer to post their images in on-line portfolios.

Meanwhile, the photographer gets to keep the copyright!  He can edit it as he wants.  He can publish it.  He can license it.  He can use the session to explore & experiment.  If he wants, he can take the model's face & paste it onto a walrus' body.  If he is a professional or semi-professional, he can even deduct the cost of the sitting.  Advantage:  photographer.

Worse, I hate the photographers who bemoan their expenses (admittedly, the OP didn't do that here).  They cry about how expensive their cameras & equipments are.  They moan about how expensive it is to rent or maintain a studio.  Yet, they won't even squeeze out an additonal 2% of pre-tax, tax deductable funds for modeling fees.

Look:  lesson one of any business education is that the deals you walk away from can be as significant to your success as the deals you make.  If your client won't pay you the money you want, it is best to be polite & walk away & not burn bridges, because you never know whether your paths will cross again.  But here, the OP's attitude is that the model's request for paying work is shameful or ridiculous.  Hardly!  Some models just need to be compensated.  He doesn't have to be the one who pays them, but to trot them out in public for some ridicule is immature.  He's welcome to work only with models who will pay him or who will work for free/TFCD, but in my book, if he's invested in cameras & equipment, he might as well be invested in models.  It doesn't take much to encourage anyone, including a model, and it's definitely good karma to be generous.

I agree with most of what's said here.  I still do tfcd/tfp, because I have to keep a day job right now.  I do this, mostly, for fun.  But, if I'm not gonna do anything with the photos, other than put them up on a port, the model can do whatever they want with it (other than sell it).  If I sell a photo, the model/s in it are compensated.  It's not listed in my model release, but I compensate any model who's images make me money.  I feel it's only fair.  I kinda like the idea of doing commision based shoots, because they have more potential for the model than some hourly jobs.  If I sell 1,000 posters to a corporation, and the model was getting $1.50/poster, than he/she just made $1,500....
I'm even having all the models that would like to be present at the opening of the "Fairies in the Rainforest" show, be at the show.  They get to be the stars of the show for those two nights.  And, hopefully, walk away with a little cash.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
I happen to think that TFCD is a bad deal for models.  Many of the models I work with are full time students, which means that they live like students, possibly have a part time minimum wage job, and struggle to keep their car running.  They often don't have much spare time at all & can't find enough modeling jobs to justify their time.  Typically, they have to supply their own makeup & wardrobe.  They have to arrange transportation.  They have to pay for Internet access.  In other words, they have expenses.  And in return, they get a number of image (the number chosen by the photographer), of a size chosen by the photographer, at a compression rate chosen by the photographer, editing to the photographer's taste, and typically with the photographer's name (and not their name) plastered all over the image.  They can't license the image.  They can't publish the image.  Heck, officially, they even need permission from the photographer to post their images in on-line portfolios.

Meanwhile, the photographer gets to keep the copyright!  He can edit it as he wants.  He can publish it.  He can license it.  He can use the session to explore & experiment.  If he wants, he can take the model's face & paste it onto a walrus' body.  If he is a professional or semi-professional, he can even deduct the cost of the sitting.  Advantage:  photographer.

I don't disagree with your distaste for the OP's post.  And I don't even disagree that your assessment above (although a bit over-drawn in some respects) certainly can be true.  In fact, may be true in many, even most cases.  Given the sad quality of many-to-most TFP shoots, I'd agree that the model doesn't get enough out of it in many cases to warrant her time, let alone to balance what the photographer can.

But that's hardly the only possible outcome of a TFP shoot.  For a serious model, who wants to be professional, who does the research to find out what kinds of pictures she needs, who carefully selects her photographer and negotiates to ensure she will get what she needs from the shoot (including, in all probability, posing as well for what he wants), the outcome can be very different.

Many TFP photographers, including many very good ones, do not make a practice of selling pictures from TFPs, or of making money from them in any way (except to use them for their own self-promotion).  The photographer can take all the expertise he has built up, make use of the lots of thousands of dollars worth of equipment he has, and spend many, many more hours on the shoot (pre-shoot, post production, distribution . . .) than the model does - all for something for which his reasonable expectation of income is zero.

The model, however, can walk away from the shoot with pictures that enable her to attract commercial or other paying clients that she otherwise may not be able to qualify for.  Having those pictures can mean lots of thousands of dollars in income to her, by using them on here website, on her comp card, in her portfolio, and with her agency.

Advantage to the model.

The deal is what the deal is, and it is not written in stone anywhere that it is good or bad for the model.  That's up to her - to choose and negotiate wisely.  If she fails to do that, the likely outcome is not much different than if she buys a car without doing research, negotiating, and checking it out.  It can work out very badly - but if it does, the fault is as much the model's as the photographers.

BCI Photo wrote:
Just laugh and K.I.M.

OK, I'm stumped.  What's K.I.M.?

Jim Ball wrote:
If the newbie model that wants "paid assignments only" is still around in three months and still has the same four or five camera phone/P&S photos in her portfolio as the day she joined, then contact her about a TFP/CD shoot.  The realities of Internet Modeling may have sank in an inch or so by then and she may see the advantage of getting some experience and better images in her portfolio before she starts charging.

Good point.
We all have to start somewhere and she may not know the correct way to go about things just yet.
If she is serious about it she will make it her job to find out and sort it out.

TXPhotog wrote:
But that's hardly the only possible outcome of a TFP shoot.  For a serious model, who wants to be professional, who does the research to find out what kinds of pictures she needs, who carefully selects her photographer and negotiates to ensure she will get what she needs from the shoot (including, in all probability, posing as well for what he wants), the outcome can be very different.

Quite possibly true, but before they get serious, they want to experience a taste of modeling, and they simply don't know all of this.  My college professor once said, "Good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment".  The OP described the target of his derision as inexperienced -- it is unlikely that she was experienced enough to be "serious" as you describe.

TXPhotog wrote:
Many TFP photographers, including many very good ones, do not make a practice of selling pictures from TFPs, or of making money from them in any way (except to use them for their own self-promotion).  The photographer can take all the expertise he has built up, make use of the lots of thousands of dollars worth of equipment he has, and spend many, many more hours on the shoot (pre-shoot, post production, distribution . . .) than the model does - all for something for which his reasonable expectation of income is zero.

Fair enough, but as I stated, beginner models might have more expenses than income, and might be in a position of deciding whether they want to eat or pay rent.  They also might invest a good amount of time to the shoot, including getting to bed early (while her friends are off partying), might spend hours showering, plucking, shaving, tanning, brushing, applying make-up, and other primping.  They might have longer term discipline issues, like hitting the gym and/or maintaining a diet regimen that would leave most mortals insane & starving.  And if they are bringing their wardrobe, well -- it took time & money to acquire all that, didn't it?

As I've said before, I don't understand why photographers will spend four or five or even six figure sums for all the stuff that surrounds & points at the model, and at the same time is not willing to spend a two or three figure sum of pre-tax & tax deductable money on the model herself.  Of all the things you bring into your studio, why is the model (the central object of your photographs) the item you skimp the most on?

Finally, if the photographer has acquired a good amount of expertise, shouldn't some of that expertise be a memory of how difficult it was to get started in gathering said expertise?  Wouldn't it be helpful to get some tangible encouragement when one is just starting out? 

TXPhotog wrote:
The model, however, can walk away from the shoot with pictures that enable her to attract commercial or other paying clients that she otherwise may not be able to qualify for.  Having those pictures can mean lots of thousands of dollars in income to her, by using them on here website, on her comp card, in her portfolio, and with her agency.

Advantage to the model.

Possibly.  Rarely, in my opinion.  Given the OP & his post, does that sound likely to you, in this case?  There is, after all, no guarantee that the images will be usable.

TXPhotog wrote:
The deal is what the deal is, and it is not written in stone anywhere that it is good or bad for the model.  That's up to her - to choose and negotiate wisely.  If she fails to do that, the likely outcome is not much different than if she buys a car without doing research, negotiating, and checking it out.  It can work out very badly - but if it does, the fault is as much the model's as the photographers.

Exactly, the deal is what the deal is.  In this case, there wasn't a deal!  Instead, the OP decided to post here, telling us all how unreasonable it is for a beginning model to request payment for her services.  I just find that to be arrogant & conceited on the OP's part.

Tikeya wrote:
I think K.I.M. stands for keep it moving.

Yup.

Sagacity Studios wrote:
Ok this has been talked about a million times on this site so i don't expect nor require anyone to post further on this subject....of course you can if you want.

Came accross a new models profile today.

No experience.

No proffesional photos.

Fours pics my great great grandfather could have taken....he is dead by the way ;-).

No references or credits.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder but very average looking, nothing striking, not tall.

But of course PAID ASSIGNMENTS ONLY........................LOL


I'm done!

Huh?  What did you say?  I'm deaf from all the whining I hear!

Looknsee Photography wrote:
Yes, stop wasting the time of the forum, and while you are at it, grow up a bit.

A model is entitled to ask for compensation.
You are entitled to decline.
Leave it at that.

Whining & complaining to this forum makes you look conceited & unprofessional.  Move on.

Persist, and you are inviting unkind comments on the value of your portfolio images (I haven't looked; I'm just saying that that's what happens when fools make fun of models who want to get paid.)

Right on! 

If ya don't like what you see ... move on!  Here is a dime, find some model who has the time!

Mike Cummings wrote:

If your great grandfather can vote in some states.. why can't he take photos?

Now that is the truth!  I hear that the dead people have swung more than a few elections!   

TXPhotog wrote:

I don't disagree with your distaste for the OP's post.  And I don't even disagree that your assessment above (although a bit over-drawn in some respects) certainly can be true.  In fact, may be true in many, even most cases.  Given the sad quality of many-to-most TFP shoots, I'd agree that the model doesn't get enough out of it in many cases to warrant her time, let alone to balance what the photographer can.

But that's hardly the only possible outcome of a TFP shoot.  For a serious model, who wants to be professional, who does the research to find out what kinds of pictures she needs, who carefully selects her photographer and negotiates to ensure she will get what she needs from the shoot (including, in all probability, posing as well for what he wants), the outcome can be very different.

Many TFP photographers, including many very good ones, do not make a practice of selling pictures from TFPs, or of making money from them in any way (except to use them for their own self-promotion).  The photographer can take all the expertise he has built up, make use of the lots of thousands of dollars worth of equipment he has, and spend many, many more hours on the shoot (pre-shoot, post production, distribution . . .) than the model does - all for something for which his reasonable expectation of income is zero.

The model, however, can walk away from the shoot with pictures that enable her to attract commercial or other paying clients that she otherwise may not be able to qualify for.  Having those pictures can mean lots of thousands of dollars in income to her, by using them on here website, on her comp card, in her portfolio, and with her agency.

Advantage to the model.

The deal is what the deal is, and it is not written in stone anywhere that it is good or bad for the model.  That's up to her - to choose and negotiate wisely.  If she fails to do that, the likely outcome is not much different than if she buys a car without doing research, negotiating, and checking it out.  It can work out very badly - but if it does, the fault is as much the model's as the photographers.

If you are a photographer who is not making money from the models pictures you are shooting, then I feel sorry for you!

Sagacity Studios wrote:
Maybe i did wake up on this side of the bed :-) but i did not use or call this model any names(though maybe implied), something i can't say for some of the posters on this thread. Again i wasn't expecting this much of stink just something i found kinda funny. I DID speak to the model and she has no more photos, nor any other kind of modeling experience. I apologize to some of the thin-skinned members here that were offended and in their words i need to "grow up, stop whining, i'm conceited, unproffesional, a fool, arrogant, conceited". I may have missed some but a few of the posts were lame right from the start so i didn't finish reading them. I'll make sure i only post happy smiley things next time, sorry.

Hey, it's cool!  We all have to start someplace!  I've paid college students who model on the side a few dollars for some drops of gas to get to the studio or location.  I've got a good reputation wiht "starter" models, but I only pay what a shoot is worth to me.  In many cases, I do TFP if there is too much of an onknown factor as to how the model will do.  Sure there are models who are as extreme as what you posted, but most models are not that unrealistic as to want a large sum of money when they don't have what it takes to back it.  I find it amusing though! Take care!

Patrick Walberg wrote:
If you are a photographer who is not making money from the models pictures you are shooting, then I feel sorry for you!

Why would you feel sorry for me?

I have made lots and lots of money on pictures.  Now I choose (usually) not to.  I do that because I have decided to pursue photography as a fun hobby, not as a business, just as I did when I was beginning.

I am under no obligation to try to make money from it, nor do I need to.  It seems to me that I have every right in the world to make that choice, and that enjoying what I do, and doing it for enjoyment, is perfectly fine.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
Exactly, the deal is what the deal is.  In this case, there wasn't a deal!

Your entire post "picking mine apart" misses the point.  The statement of yours that I took issue with was not limited to this instance, but more generally to the issue of TFPs.  Your quote that I responded to was much more than a statement about this "non-deal".

You continue to refer back to this misbegotten "deal" as though it was the subject.  It is not.  The subject (yours, as stated, and mine in response to that statement) is much broader, and the specifics of this situation have little to do with it.

Sagacity Studios wrote:
Maybe i did wake up on this side of the bed :-) but i did not use or call this model any names(though maybe implied), something i can't say for some of the posters on this thread. Again i wasn't expecting this much of stink just something i found kinda funny. I DID speak to the model and she has no more photos, nor any other kind of modeling experience. I apologize to some of the thin-skinned members here that were offended and in their words i need to "grow up, stop whining, i'm conceited, unproffesional, a fool, arrogant, conceited". I may have missed some but a few of the posts were lame right from the start so i didn't finish reading them. I'll make sure i only post happy smiley things next time, sorry.

Every 72 hours or less a photographer starts a thread/rant on this very topic.  It's old and childish.

This is what it comes down here.

Do you want to work with that model?  Contact them and pitch your offer and/or ask for their terms.  if you agree, great.  If not, negotiate.  If you cannot reach and agreement move on.

This wouldn't be such a bad thread if it weren't for what I said above, every 72 hours or less a photographer starts a thread/rant about experienced lacking models charging for photo sessions.

Sagacity Studios wrote:
Maybe i did wake up on this side of the bed :-) but i did not use or call this model any names(though maybe implied), something i can't say for some of the posters on this thread. Again i wasn't expecting this much of stink just something i found kinda funny. I DID speak to the model and she has no more photos, nor any other kind of modeling experience. I apologize to some of the thin-skinned members here that were offended and in their words i need to "grow up, stop whining, i'm conceited, unproffesional, a fool, arrogant, conceited". I may have missed some but a few of the posts were lame right from the start so i didn't finish reading them. I'll make sure i only post happy smiley things next time, sorry.

You'll occasionally encounter a handful of pseudo-"experts" with lousy people skills whose apparent purpose for being on the MM forums is to turn a thread into a childish flame war. They are often ridiculed in the forums by the true participants. Feel free to either ignore 'em or ridicule them, as you see fit.

kickfight wrote:

You'll occasionally encounter a handful of pseudo-"experts" with lousy people skills whose apparent purpose for being on the MM forums is to turn a thread into a childish flame war. They are often ridiculed in the forums by the true participants. Feel free to either ignore 'em or ridicule them, as you see fit.

Exactly! In my original post i stated that i did not expect nor require any response, sometimes you just need to say something, is that ok with everyone??? I named no names, no one was I directly pointing the finger at.  "Pseudo experts" should have their own forum & not take everything so seriously, i know i wasn't that serious & the "flame wars" rage on. Yeah...I... need to grow up.

Sagacity Studios wrote:
But of course PAID ASSIGNMENTS ONLY........................LOL

Hey, if she were a hooker, you probably wouldn't give it a second thought that she wants to get paid for her first day at work. 

Generally speaking, models get paid because of what they look like, not how smart they are, or whether they have lots of experience, or tear sheets, or "professional" pictures in their port.

Of course, if she's not that great looking, then she's probably not getting much work.  But, maybe it's just a hobby to her and she really doesn't care that a lot of shooters are passing her by.

Sagacity Studios wrote:
Ok this has been talked about a million times on this site so i don't expect nor require anyone to post further on this subject....of course you can if you want.

Came accross a new models profile today.

No experience.

No proffesional photos.

Fours pics my great great grandfather could have taken....he is dead by the way ;-).

No references or credits.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder but very average looking, nothing striking, not tall.

But of course PAID ASSIGNMENTS ONLY........................LOL


I'm done!

Its a free market ( people are entitled to ask for whatever they want )

Meehan Photography wrote:
Now now boys, play nice.
If the model represents herself as a professional and requests payment, I simply ask to see her last pay stub (or you know what I mean) from modeling. In theory more than actual physical sight. Meaning, I consider and pay models who warrant payment, otherwise it's TFP or catch you later...

Do you have any idea how ridiculous this sounds? If you were hiring a plumber, would you ask to see the checkmfrom his last job?
If a model requests payment, you are free to accept it or not. Most of us on these forums at least want to make a little money doing it, if only for our own ego satisfaction.
If I shoot images that I intend to sell, it is only right that the model be compensated. If I shoot at the behest of the model then I believe that she should pay me for the pictures unless I am free to sell them.  For what other reason would I shoot? If I shoot purely for my own enjoyment, then I should pay for the priviledge unless I find a model who is similarly inclined. Hence, TFP.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
Yes, stop wasting the time of the forum, and while you are at it, grow up a bit.

A model is entitled to ask for compensation.
You are entitled to decline.
Leave it at that.

Whining & complaining to this forum makes you look conceited & unprofessional.  Move on.

Persist, and you are inviting unkind comments on the value of your portfolio images (I haven't looked; I'm just saying that that's what happens when fools make fun of models who want to get paid.)

Is a model with zero experience really entitled to demand compensation? Seriously? Im in nursing school but if I want a hospital job I have to be done school and experience before I get the $$.

Eric S. wrote:
Once I saw an art-piece in a gallery where a guy hot-glued garbage to a huge piece of wood and wanted $35,000 for it.

I didn't buy it.

Eric, I love your avatar!  That pic is so hot.  I wish I could shoot with you.  I would love for you to capture some of my makeup work!

Oh, sorry, I got off the subject...

If a model is asking for money and she has no experience then more than likely she is just looking to make a few bucks and not really serious about modeling.