Claire Elizabeth wrote:

Is a model with zero experience really entitled to demand compensation? Seriously? Im in nursing school but if I want a hospital job I have to be done school and experience before I get the $$.

Glad to see this post has finally become reasonable, everyone on both sides are making good points but Claire tops us ALL with her reasoning...good job Claire.

Adrienne Aurora wrote:

I still think that looks like a llama.

What Fun Productions wrote:
It is a two way street. Everyone is always so concerned about the model getting paid, but what ever happened to the models paying for images for their portfolios. This is a big savings to any model starting out, just do a bunch of TFP and their you go.... I think this explains why so many "Goth" models. There is no upfront cost. Photographers have for the most part, lost a large market when models stopped paying.

I use a shared content agreement when I shoot TFP. Each party can use the images as they please. If the model can sell them, great. I don't care. In fact it would make me happy that they were cleaver enough to sell them. I have said before, it is much easier to take a photo, then it is to find someone who will pay you for it. Sales is the hard part - Photography is the fun part.

One last thing, the model's time is exactly the duration of the shoot plus some getting ready time. The photographer has MANY, MANY more hours in post. Just sorting the pics and basic RAW white balancing etc is a lot of time. I also have some expenses for the shoot - cocktails, usually some food, the disks that I burn for the model and often postage to mail them.

You get your models cocktails and food!!! I want to shoot with you! I love that tfp gets me images from amazing photographers I'd otherwise have to pay hundreds and hundreds of dollars too, but FOOD! Maybe we can post a thread about how all models aren't on the "model" diet of air and cigarettes. A lunch break on a twelve hour location shoot would be nice.

Patrick Walberg wrote:

Huh?  What did you say?  I'm deaf from all the whining I hear!

whats the point in being like that?! i think that is pathetic! everyone is aloud their opinion, so why are you classing it as whining? i kind of agree in a way, if you are an amateur model without experience, not a very good portfolio at the time and requesting paid assignments only then you arn't going to get offered much work are you?
i am an amateur too and want my portfolio building up and i wouldnt expect to get paid assignments only because i dont have enough experience at the moment to be asking that.

Claire Elizabeth wrote:
Is a model with zero experience really entitled to demand compensation? Seriously? Im in nursing school but if I want a hospital job I have to be done school and experience before I get the $$.

Change "demand" to "request", and I'd say, "sure".  A model with no experience can request compensation -- whether she gets it or not depends on a lot of factors.

Modeling is not like nursing -- nursing does require some certification, doesn't it?  A model could be a "natural" and doesn't really have to be licensed to get a job.  She just has to find a deal with a photographer and/or client -- no other requirement is necessary.

My issue is that it is perfectly okay for a model to request payment, and it is perfectly okay for a photographer to refuse the offer.  A professional would make a counter offer or would politely walk away.  A poor loser would come to a forum like this one to ridicule the model for her request for payment.

Rhonda McLendon wrote:
If a model is asking for money and she has no experience then more than likely she is just looking to make a few bucks and not really serious about modeling.

Fair enough -- then let the market be her education.  If she gets paying jobs, good for her.  If she doesn't, then either she'll be willing to do a few TFCD sittings or not -- I'm not sure we care.

But I still see nothing wrong with a model requesting compensation.  Why do people feel it necessary to bash models who request payment?

Sagacity Studios wrote:

Glad to see this post has finally become reasonable, everyone on both sides are making good points but Claire tops us ALL with her reasoning...good job Claire.

Yes I have been known to be semi-intelligent some of the time And I do realize nursing is different from modeling in that it requires a license but my point is that very rarely are people without experience hired and paid. If I want to be a tattoo artist I have to be an unpaid apprentice first. If I want to work at a radio station I have to be an unpaid intern first.

Claire Elizabeth wrote:

Yes I have been known to be semi-intelligent some of the time And I do realize nursing is different from modeling in that it requires a license but my point is that very rarely are people without experience hired and paid. If I want to be a tattoo artist I have to be an unpaid apprentice first. If I want to work at a radio station I have to be an unpaid intern first.

On the other hand, when I graduated from school with an MS in Computer Science, I was immediately hired, and on Day One, I was earning more than my parents.  I had no experience outside of school.  Sure, when I got experience, I got raises until I was in the top percentile of engineers -- experience does count. 

But my point is that many jobs will pay inexperienced workers.  In fact, I would even venture to say that most jobs do.  Think about it -- waiters/waitresses are paid on Day One, engineers are paid on Day One, etc.

Looknsee Photography wrote:

On the other hand, when I graduated from school with an MS in Computer Science, I was immediately hired, and on Day One, I was earning more than my parents.  I had no experience outside of school.  Sure, when I got experience, I got raises until I was in the top percentile of engineers -- experience does count. 

But my point is that many jobs will pay inexperienced workers.  In fact, I would even venture to say that most jobs do.  Think about it -- waiters/waitresses are paid on Day One, engineers are paid on Day One, etc.

Engineering is a bad example as are most other professions, if you are trying to fortify your point..... you invested 50K or more for the priviledge of earning that money on day one.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
On the other hand, when I graduated from school with an MS in Computer Science, I was immediately hired, and on Day One, I was earning more than my parents.  I had no experience outside of school.  Sure, when I got experience, I got raises until I was in the top percentile of engineers -- experience does count. 

But my point is that many jobs will pay inexperienced workers.  In fact, I would even venture to say that most jobs do.  Think about it -- waiters/waitresses are paid on Day One, engineers are paid on Day One, etc.

Fons Studio wrote:
Engineering is a bad example as are most other professions, if you are trying to fortify your point..... you invested 50K or more for the priviledge of earning that money on day one.

Look again -- I used another example.  I said that waiters/waitresses get paid on Day One.  More examples:  The pimple faced kid taking your McDonalds order gets paid on Day One.  The secretary at your doctor's office gets paid on Day One.  The guy picking up the garbage gets paid on Day One.  The person selling tickets to the movies gets paid on Day One.  All these folks may have gotten their job with no working experience.

It is my position that the vast majority of jobs will pay its workers on Day One, even if the worker has no experience.


(And for the record, I paid my way through grad school -- in fact, I was hired to be my professor's assistant:  I was grading the homework of my classmates in the classes we were taking together.)

berrios wrote:
looknsee i totally agree with you but just one thing... i'm a working photog in nyc. i deal with the worlds leading agencies. if a model comes into their offices with no book, the first thing they're going to do is send her to do some free testing. i'm not sure if it's deferent in oregon but i'm gonna go ahead and trust ny when it comes to the fashion industry.i think the OP was kind of hinting at this fact and may have just phrased it wrong. personally, should i come across a port like the one he mentioned, i know that the model is going to benefit more from this transaction than i am. more likely than not if i shoot her it's not gonna be a great session because of her inexperience. having said that i would choose not to shoot her if she asking for paid gigs only. seriously, if it's not for a job or for a shot i'm planning on exhibiting/publish or a nude... there's no money. free testing and tfp/cd is a standardin the industry... and that's coming from new york.

ciao,
berrios

I'm not saying that that is wrong.  It's perfectly fine for an agency to expect potential models to come in with some polished images, even if that means that she had to pose TFCD in order to obtain those images.  That's fine -- I understand that that is how the industry works, and for good reason.  We all know that modeling is more than looking good.

On the other hand, if you are confronted with a model who asked to get paid, well it's up to you whether you want to hire her.  You don't have to pay models if you don't want to -- just say no, be polite, & move on.

What bothers me is the attitidue that when some photographers are confronted by an inexperienced model who wishes to be paid, they think they are justified coming here and telling us all how ridiculous that model is.  Some of them even have the audacity to tell the model that she will never make it as a professional model.  What is up with that?  Like I said in my last post, some models are tight on time & tight on money, and they need to be compensated to justify their time commitment.  As a photographer, you don't have to be the one who pays them, but it is totally rude, conceited, and unprofessional to come here & rip her for needing or wanting to get paid.

I'm not saying that that is wrong.  It's perfectly fine for an agency to expect potential models to come in with some polished images, even if that means that she had to pose TFCD in order to obtain those images.  That's fine -- I understand that that is how the industry works, and for good reason.  We all know that modeling is more than looking good.

On the other hand, if you are confronted with a model who asked to get paid, well it's up to you whether you want to hire her.  You don't have to pay models if you don't want to -- just say no, be polite, & move on.

What bothers me is the attitidue that when some photographers are confronted by an inexperienced model who wishes to be paid, they think they are justified coming here and telling us all how ridiculous that model is.  Some of them even have the audacity to tell the model that she will never make it as a professional model.  What is up with that?  Like I said in my last post, some models are tight on time & tight on money, and they need to be compensated to justify their time commitment.  As a photographer, you don't have to be the one who pays them, but it is totally rude, conceited, and unprofessional to come here & rip her for needing or wanting to get paid.

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I think we all understand your opinion.....Really... However, I think it is "totally rude, conceited, and unprofessional" for you to keep blasting this guy for posting his views.

Sagacity Studios wrote:
MY final post for this thread. Since when doesn't a person have the right to express how they feel? EVEN if its not popular. Is what i said THAT bad??? I've been called names by a few posters on this thread. I never did this to any model or photog on this site and or forum. Offer your opinion or viewpoint don't bash/overlycritisize. This is a open forum & let people be, you don't have to agree but you don't have to antogonize. So take a look in the mirror, you may not like what you see or hear.

Same on you.

You bashed the inexperienced model in your original posting.  I felt & feel that your model bashing was cruel & unprofessional, and I've said so. 

So, now that you've experienced a bit of a backlash for your model bashing, what do you see in the mirror (I don't know how you can hear something in the mirror).

Sagacity Studios wrote:
MY final post for this thread. Since when doesn't a person have the right to express how they feel? EVEN if its not popular. Is what i said THAT bad???

Yes you do.  No it's not bad.  Be prepared for counter viewpoints and critisism.  Your thread topic is started by someone every 72 hours (unscientific) or less.  It's old and boring and comes to the same conclusions each time.  Stick around long enough and you'll either start agreeing with your detractors or find people who you can agree with.  Kind of a win/win...sort of.

I've been called names by a few posters on this thread. I never did this to any model or photog on this site and or forum. Offer your opinion or viewpoint don't bash/overlycritisize. This is a open forum & let people be, you don't have to agree but you don't have to antogonize. So take a look in the mirror, you may not like what you see or hear.

Once again I agree.  The name calling is uncalled for.