Experimental Photoworks wrote:
So what is the most polite way to tell someone they should not now or ever try to be a model?

Experimental Photoworks wrote:
We are destroying our own community.

So what is the most polite way to tell someone they should not now or ever try to be a model?

I must have missed the announcement that put you in charge of everyone's future.

Why not focus on YOUR work and YOUR life and let everyone else follow their own dreams.

Red Sky Photography wrote:

I must have missed the announcement that put you in charge of everyone's future.

Why not focus on YOUR work and YOUR life and let everyone else follow their own dreams.

I don't think that is what she's doing. I think she's saying its wrong to mislead someone's dreams. Dreams are great, as long as they are grounded in reality and there is a good understanding of what it takes to make those dreams come true. Its the ones that get delusioned into believing wild stories and such that create problems...

I'm not going to make it big, nor do I ever intend to. I wasn't misled into thinking I could make it big. I know what my goals are, and I know how to market myself in a way that is positive for myself and keeps the people that are hiring me happy. I feel that I'm well grounded in reality to know that wild dreams of fame are pretty silly and that anybody that promises as much is selling something.

Experimental Photoworks wrote:
I'm not in charge of anyones life at all but I'm not going to dilute my own market, I I know there are dozens of hard working models, that I and many others have not had a chance to work with yet, yet why do we spend the time and try to make new ones????
Following a dream is one thing, but focing a dream upon someone is quite another.

I guess I don't understand your point.

How is your market being diluted ?

Who is forceing a dream on another?

NC17 wrote:
I don't think that is what she's doing. I think she's saying its wrong to mislead someone's dreams. Dreams are great, as long as they are grounded in reality and there is a good understanding of what it takes to make those dreams come true. Its the ones that get delusioned into believing wild stories and such that create problems...

I'm not going to make it big, nor do I ever intend to. I wasn't misled into thinking I could make it big. I know what my goals are, and I know how to market myself in a way that is positive for myself and keeps the people that are hiring me happy. I feel that I'm well grounded in reality to know that wild dreams of fame are pretty silly and that anybody that promises as much is selling something.

I would disagree to the extent that a dream is a release from reality not an embracement of it.

Experimental Photoworks wrote:
Is this a real discusion? I love this place

I'll try to be more clear:
If a photographers market is shooting models and say there are 10 models in the area 5 good, 5 bad (please no comments on what is good or bad),
That leaves us with a rate of about 50% of working models.
not so good....so we try to find more....go to some local place and get a few young untrained girls to model for us (thus implanting a false dream)
say out of those 10 new girls 3 decide to learn all they can and become the Good models now we have 12 bad models and 8 bad models....a higher persentage of bad models.

This is an observation on life as well as MM I just happend to see several posts on boths sides of this recently and it clicked in my head how to put it all together....

We all want to know why these problems exist, I think I found a clue no one has touched on before.

To your point, the only models I have complained about are the ones that do not show.  I don't believe anything becomes ruined altogether because wanna be's post some shots and want to create some photo's.  If they think they can charge wacked out prices as a newbie they quickly learn how valuable they are or are not here on MM.  About half the shots on my port are from non models who haven't ruined it for anyone.

Experimental Photoworks wrote:
We are destroying our own community.
Photographers are bitching about “modelsâ€? models and net whores.
They are lazy, don’t communicate, flake yada yada yada.
What is a photographer to do?
He turns around goes to the mall, campus, party and begets half a dozen more new “modelsâ€?. He hands out his card to pretty little girls set them up for a shoot, gets some images and sends them off back into world with the newfound idea that “wow if that photographer thought I could be a model, I must be oneâ€?
So now we have a fresh new model who finds MM, OMP because her “photographerâ€? showed her his website. The girl has no clue how to run a business, is overwhelmed at 200 emails in her inbox, realizes she has to get up at dawn,  and consequently flakes on her next three shoots.
The cycle starts all over again……




(edited commentary will be reserved for a new thread)

I have noticed that trend also, sometimes the new faces interpet the mass e-mail responses as "I have made it, I'm a star, I got 30 e-mails in one day offering me FREE shoots"...

Often it is next to impossible for them to "get it" and they become annoyed easily and suddenly they become experts on the modeling industry, "You just don't want me to make it, you're negative" , then to add insult to injury to ignorant new faces bump into the ignorant gwc's shooting hot air up their behinds...it's an endless loop, they support each other's neurosis.

Experimental Photoworks wrote:
If a photographers market is shooting models and say there are 10 models in the area 5 good, 5 bad (please no comments on what is good or bad),
That leaves us with a rate of about 50% of working models.
not so good....so we try to find more....go to some local place and get a few young untrained girls to model for us (thus implanting a false dream)
say out of those 10 new girls 3 decide to learn all they can and become the Good models now we have 12 bad models and 8 bad models....a higher persentage of bad models.

Hi,

Your approach to statistics is rather… unique.  The problem with your hypothetical example is twofold. 

First, your categories are undefined.  What you mean by "good" and "bad" does matter -- it determines your percentages and is central to your argument.  So alright, what makes a good model or a bad one?

Is a model good if she is beautiful and naturally talented, but unmotivated?  Is a model bad if she is hard working and determined to learn the craft of modeling, but a mere 5' 2" tall?

If you can’t set these parameters then how can you say that the continuous flux of hopeful models somehow dilutes modeling?  And what would happen to modeling at each and every level of experience and professionalism without the influx of fresh faces and ideas?

Second, even if you define these populations you still have the issue of sample size.  Five, ten, a hundred models…   I don’t believe that even with clearly defined parameters these numbers would give a valid picture of what is happening industry-wide.

The number of pretty girls, with some natural modeling talent, that are walking around the mall will vary dramatically from moment to moment.  But the number nationwide is probably fairly constant.  New models enter the field, while experience models move on to other interests (some remaining in the industry, but in different roles; while others move on to different interests).

I suspect that the percentages stay fairly constant over time for each level of modeling experience and professional status (with respect to the total number of models) as you move up the modeling pyramid to the elite top tier.  And I see no way (good or bad) for anyone to genuinely change this.

So do fresh faces dilute modeling?  I for one don’t see how.

Take care,
Tom

Experimental Photoworks wrote:
I'll try to be more clear:
If a photographers market is shooting models and say there are 10 models in the area 5 good, 5 bad (please no comments on what is good or bad),
That leaves us with a rate of about 50% of working models.


not so good....so we try to find more....go to some local place and get a few young untrained girls to model for us (thus implanting a false dream)

We all want to know why these problems exist, I think I found a clue no one has touched on before.

1. 5 good and 5 bad in your opinion leaves you with a 50% rate of people you want to work with. Are you assuming that all photographers in your area feel the same about all ten models ? I see models I want to work with that others won't because of size, tattoos ect. That doesn't mean anyone is inherently bad.

2. I often ask untrained girls/women to sit for me. I don't give them some song and dance about putting them on the cover of Vogue. I just express that I think I can give them some beautiful pictures they will be happy with.

3. Again, I just don't see this as a problem, natural selection works wonders.