DigitalCMH wrote:
Hey Garry, why not just come out with it?  Stop hiding behind these questions.  If you feel Americans are racist, then just call us racists.

Its not my style to be name calling ... What I really hope to achieve with these sort of questions is for all of us American , Canadian or whatever - to look at , and engage in healthy constuctive discussion of  our attitudes , values and practices ......so that we can head in a more positive direction

Garry k wrote:
Do High Fashion Models from East Africa have a better chance of Making it big than African American Models ?

Current High Fashion Models of Eastern African background walking the major runways of the World include Alek Wek ( Sudan ) Yasmine Warsame ( Somalia ) and Liya Kebede ( Ethiopia )

Which current "black " models represent America ... I am hard pressed to come up with any names

Strange thing is that the those African countries mentioned are are all very traditonial and conversative culturally ( with fundamentalist Muslim and Christian popultations ) and  you would not think that women ( models )  from these areas would ( leave ) to  seek out and  find opportunities in the world of high fashion

Thus the question is posed - are socially  prevelant racial attitudes in America more of a deterent to African American Models making it big ,than the traditional socialization  of young women in Ethiopia , Somalia , and Sudan...And by making it big _ I mean walking the Runways of Paris , Milan , or London and/or  correspondingly bieng featured in an ad campaign for a major fashion house ......

well I have a partial answer. When I look at some of the black models that are chosen to walk the runway, I have some thoughts that could possibly stir the pot. White Americans and African Americans have very different standards of beauty. While a caucasian may feel like Alec Wek is beautiful, a lot of African Americans think she attrocious(?) looking.Not many African Americans have the waif look. Many African Americans are not built with no hips and breasts, that's just not likely. Our (African Americans) body types are looked down upon in the fashion world because they are curvy. African Americans generally will not be as dark skinned  as Alec and honestly due to mixing over many decades, we can look a variety of different ways, few of which are considered exotic and edgy to American society. This is primarily the reason why a lot of African Americans are forced into glamour and the urban market because of our body types. What black men want to see and what the runway wants to see are totally different. You'll never see a girl like Alec in a glamour magazine.
I remember Iman telling Tyra once that she enjoyed the runway world because at home in Africa, her beauty is not appreciated because she wasn't blessed with large breasts and hips/butt.

dee740 wrote:

well I have a partial answer. When I look at some of the black models that are chosen to walk the runway, I have some thoughts that could possibly stir the pot. White Americans and African Americans have very different standards of beauty. While a caucasian may feel like Alec Wek is beautiful, a lot of African Americans think she attrocious(?) looking.Not many African Americans have the waif look. Many African Americans are not built with no hips and breasts, that's just not likely. Our (African Americans) body types are looked down upon in the fashion world because they are curvy. African Americans generally will not be as dark skinned  as Alec and honestly due to mixing over many decades, we can look a variety of different ways, few of which are considered exotic and edgy to American society. This is primarily the reason why a lot of African Americans are forced into glamour and the urban market because of our body types. What black men want to see and what the runway wants to see are totally different. You'll never see a girl like Alec in a glamour magazine.
I remember Iman telling Tyra once that she enjoyed the runway world because at home in Africa, her beauty is not appreciated because she wasn't blessed with large breasts and hips/butt.

You have a good point, IMO.  Don't forget about the Bl-indian and blasian trends, though *rolls eyes* (not at you)

As a personal trainer, I've dealt with a fair amount of black women who were aspiring models.  Most of them had hips, etc, but didn't want to lose the size to benefit their careers.  A lot of them simply wanted to be the "first supermodel with a big ass" or got discouraged and quit instead of trying to slim down a bit.

Garry k wrote:

Its not my style to be name calling ... What I really hope to achieve with these sort of questions is for all of us American , Canadian or whatever - to look at , and engage in healthy constuctive discussion of  our attitudes , values and practices ......so that we can head in a more positive direction

I believe you're more interested in inciting racial issues instead of an honest discussion about them.  I believe you feel Americans are more racist than other more open-minded places like Europe.  You simply need to look at the world's most popular sport to understand that.  Look at soccer...never any racism displayed there.  And I'm sure it never occurs anywhere else in Europe either.

TorontoModel wrote:
who cares


...they're all beautiful

ditto

Garry k wrote:
Current High Fashion Models of Eastern African background walking the major runways of the World include Alek Wek ( Sudan ) Yasmine Warsame ( Somalia ) and Liya Kebede ( Ethiopia )

African has 61 teritories and 840,000,000 people...and you named three. So maybe you could say EAST African models are succesful (and even then, there are many more east African nations)...but as you've stated it, this is a gross generalization. I think the bottom line is that ethnic and minority models are under represented in the fashion industry...but this is unsuprising as those who make the rules are White Americans and Europeans and most ethnic/minority women's bodies do not conform to white standards. In some countries, being fat is a sign of wealth becuase it means you can eat. If the fashion industry had larger standards I'm sure we would see more models of color from all over the world, but then, of course, there would be more white models as well. My point is, don't use this small sample size to represent an entire continent...it doens't help you make any point other than the afromentined...we need more models of color in fashion!

DigitalCMH wrote:
Look at soccer...never any racism displayed there.  And I'm sure it never occurs anywhere else in Europe either.

Are you saying there's no racism in Europe?...please, please tell me that I just misunderstood you...

Sara Beth wrote:

Are you saying there's no racism in Europe?...please, please tell me that I just misunderstood you...

Twas sarcasm.

At least I hope it was.

Sara Beth wrote:
Are you saying there's no racism in Europe?...please, please tell me that I just misunderstood you...

Sorry, I was being sarcastic.  I remembered a "piece" Bryant Gumble did covering Black soccer players and the absolute racism they have to deal with at various soccer matches throughout Europe.  The things those fans throw at the players and chant was quite disgusting and something you would not see at a professional sporting event in the "racist" United States.

Edit:  I want to add something. I have no doubt American athelets deal with racism at various sporting events IN the United States.  But it is no where close to be comparable to what I saw in videos of these European soccer matches.  SECTIONS of fans would throw bananas and make ape sounds.  And this, according to the players interviewed, was COMMON!

EricJ wrote:

You have a good point, IMO.  Don't forget about the Bl-indian and blasian trends, though *rolls eyes* (not at you)

As a personal trainer, I've dealt with a fair amount of black women who were aspiring models.  Most of them had hips, etc, but didn't want to lose the size to benefit their careers.  A lot of them simply wanted to be the "first supermodel with a big ass" or got discouraged and quit instead of trying to slim down a bit.

There are two things at work in light of what you said. See, some of us can slim down, but still won't fit in that category. Aside from my height situation, I have been slimmer and it brings more attention to my "trouble spots". When I was a teenager and first develpoed breasts at 95 pounds, I had a DD and 40 inch hips.My legs and arms and waist are just really slim in comparison to those other extremely large things. So again, a lot of black women don't have the ability to become like Alec Wek. Secondly, for caucasians, the waif look is beneficial for their personal lives as well as the advancement of a modeling career. For black women the standards of beauty off the runway are completely different. People may praise your body on stage, but when you go home black men are looking at Buffie the Body, Melyssa Ford.Types that are considered "fat" and "ugly" on the runway.  So it's just a contradiction and I think it's hard for African American women to get away from.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Wasn't it several years ago that models from
Brazil were all the rage?

yeah..it started when Ludacris had his "beautiful" music video shot in Brazil

Rue 99 wrote:
1. There's a lot more blacks in Africa than in the Americas, so isn't this question is like asking:

"Why does China have so many more Chinese restaurants than the US?"

2. Blacks and other ethnic groups are *overrepresented* in the US modeling industry, and Caucasions are unrepresented.

http://www.newmodels.com/race.html

I'm not a part of the fashion industry so I can't argue the facts of Blacks, etc
being overrepresented I do note that these two well known agencies have
very few at least Black looking models on their web sites.
http://www.dnamodels.com/
http://www.1modelmanagement.com/
I have read where more knowlegeable photographers like Txphotg and a few others
have mentioned the overrrepresented fact but if one were to look at just
these two agencies you might not agree.  Again I've never been been a part of
the fashion industry.  So I will accept what those who have been say.  I am
curious though.  Was some sort of study done?  Were the numbers of ethnic
models counted in magazines or was it based on modeling agency information. 
How were the numbers gathered?  What were the sources?  Where did newmodels
get this information?  I'm curious.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
All Black women don't have big butts and hips.

ALL of any group of people are not ALL any way.But there are obviously more black women shaped like me than Chinese women and White women. It's just the way it is.

dee740 wrote:

There are two things at work in light of what you said. See, some of us can slim down, but still won't fit in that category. Aside from my height situation, I have been slimmer and it brings more attention to my "trouble spots". When I was a teenager and first develpoed breasts at 95 pounds, I had a DD and 40 inch hips.My legs and arms and waist are just really slim in comparison to those other extremely large things. So again, a lot of black women don't have the ability to become like Alec Wek. Secondly, for caucasians, the waif look is beneficial for their personal lives as well as the advancement of a modeling career. For black women the standards of beauty off the runway are completely different. People may praise your body on stage, but when you go home black men are looking at Buffie the Body, Melyssa Ford.Types that are considered "fat" and "ugly" on the runway.  So it's just a contradiction and I think it's hard for African American women to get away from.

Are you saying that you had 40 inch hips at 95 pounds or did I misread that? 

You're right, A lot of American black women have larger hips and find it difficult to achieve the look.  On the other hand, proper eating, exercising, and being damned good at hiding flaws can work wonders.  I don't have a lot of experience in modeling, but I do know that body compositon can change with time & the right type of exercise.  Genetics is a bitch, though.  We all have to work what we're born with.

DigitalCMH wrote:

I believe you're more interested in inciting racial issues instead of an honest discussion about them.  I believe you feel Americans are more racist than other more open-minded places like Europe.  You simply need to look at the world's most popular sport to understand that.  Look at soccer...never any racism displayed there.  And I'm sure it never occurs anywhere else in Europe either.

Assumptions , assumptions , assumptions


Im not trying to incite anything except some intellengent  conversation regarding this  issue ....As I do not think of myslef as a racist - if I question racist attitudes and practices - Am  I a trouble maker .....?

Think I may start a discussion entitled "Why are there hardly ever  any black models featured in Italian Vogue "....Im curious about that one too ......

BLoPhoto wrote:
...another pointless thread...there are so many blatant streotypes in this thread, as is the case with so many others...go shoot...go model..go style something-that is what this site is for, right....sheesh!

Then Why are you reading  this .... One of the reasons I participate in these discussions  is that it gives me a break from shooting fashion ( ie Ive shot 4 fashion shows , a Caribbean party and a TFP creative  in the last 4 days and  I am only a part time photographer  )

Garry k wrote:

Then Why are you reading  this .... One of the reasons I participate in these discussions  is that it gives me a break from shooting fashion ( ie Ive shot 4 fashion shows , a Caribbean party and a TFP creative  in the last 4 days and  I am only a part time photographer  )

I read and responded because I had not read anything similar to what I had to say. I see your point that it is a break, but do you honestly think that some resolve will come from this or any other thread where race and/or opinion are involved? You might also consider that I was not necessarily stating you were the one citing stereotypes...but then again, "if I throw a stone and hit someone, does the pain feel any less if it was done deliberately versus if it were thrown by accident"?

dee740 wrote:
well I have a partial answer. When I look at some of the black models that are chosen to walk the runway, I have some thoughts that could possibly stir the pot. White Americans and African Americans have very different standards of beauty. While a caucasian may feel like Alec Wek is beautiful, a lot of African Americans think she attrocious(?) looking.Not many African Americans have the waif look. Many African Americans are not built with no hips and breasts, that's just not likely. Our (African Americans) body types are looked down upon in the fashion world because they are curvy. African Americans generally will not be as dark skinned  as Alec and honestly due to mixing over many decades, we can look a variety of different ways, few of which are considered exotic and edgy to American society. This is primarily the reason why a lot of African Americans are forced into glamour and the urban market because of our body types. What black men want to see and what the runway wants to see are totally different. You'll never see a girl like Alec in a glamour magazine.
I remember Iman telling Tyra once that she enjoyed the runway world because at home in Africa, her beauty is not appreciated because she wasn't blessed with large breasts and hips/butt.

Gotta say , Dees comments in this thread really got me thinking about something

Why is it that it is models from E Africa ( not other parts of the continent  ) that are making it ...Here is a possible theory ...Countries like Ethiopia , Somalia and  the Sudan have been ravaged by huge famines over the few decades .Many have died , many are on the verge -thus  a lot of very thin people in general

Thus are E African models the Black counterpart of Heroin  Chic Look ( and by this mean models who are un naturally thin due to outside circumstances )

Garry k wrote:

Then Why are you reading  this .... One of the reasons I participate in these discussions  is that it gives me a break from shooting fashion ( ie Ive shot 4 fashion shows , a Caribbean party and a TFP creative  in the last 4 days and  I am only a part time photographer  )

I love this thread! I think it brings a good point.  I understand that everyone has an opinion and different ideas/thoughts etc., personally I think that in magazines, for eg: vogue, (italian vogue especially) and several other magazines in general you dont see much diversity in ethnicities, well that's what I think personally when I read magazines that I have purchased, especially East Indian models, the only east indian model I see who is one of my favorites is: Ujwaala Raut, she's from India and she's done so much for herself, shes been in Victoria Secret, and has done many shows and editorials.  Makes me proud! Garry I'm glad that you brought this up, and NO he is not a racist! Im good friends with him:)

EricJ wrote:
Are you saying that you had 40 inch hips at 95 pounds or did I misread that?

Nope you read it right. Now I'm a triple ddd and 45 inch hips. I could definitely be smaller, but those things are just not going to decrease to scale.My waist is 28 now. I could be a 6 (looking sick no doubt), but I'd still be a dd with 42 inch hips. Go figure!!lol

Garry k wrote:

Gotta say , Dees comments in this thread really got me thinking about something

Why is it that it is models from E Africa ( not other parts of the continent  ) that are making it ...Here is a possible theory ...Countries like Ethiopia , Somalia and  the Sudan have been ravaged by huge famines over the few decades .Many have died , many are on the verge -thus  a lot of very thin people in general

Thus are E African models the Black counterpart of Heroin  Chic Look ( and by this mean models who are un naturally thin due to outside circumstances )

Are you serious? Most of the models who are from E-Africa were not nomads and goatherders...most of them come from urban-middle class backrounds such as Alek Wek whose family left to britain when she was 12, Iman who if i recall had doctor parents, and Liya Kebede who came from a middle-class ethiopian family. So most models who can afford to pick up and move to NY/Paris/Milan were not effected by the famines. All three countries have a pretty big population of Arabs Ethiopia specifically..so there mixing probably has more to do with it. Also in Ethiopia and these other countries from my knowledge...Stick thin figures are not found to be attractive so they are probably just as rare. But ppl there walk more, run more and eat better...in terms of fats,excess sugars

Electra T wrote:
Are you serious? Most of the models who are from E-Africa were not nomads and goatherders...most of them come from urban-middle class backrounds such as Alek Wek whose family left to britain when she was 12, Iman who if i recall had doctor parents, and Liya Kebede who came from a middle-class ethiopian family. So most models who can afford to pick up and move to NY/Paris/Milan were not effected by the famines. All three countries have a pretty big population of Arabs Ethiopia specifically..so there mixing probably has more to do with it. Also in Ethiopia and these other countries from my knowledge...Stick thin figures are not found to be attractive so they are probably just as rare. But ppl there walk more, run more and eat better...in terms of fats,excess sugars

I think you have taken me too literally ,,,,Certainly these models come from  families that are well off ( most models in any country do ) What I am tryin to say in general is food has been scarce in E Africa for a long time - thus in general the population is lean and  has been for generations ( with of course a few exceptions ) ,,,,thus  Even after moving to the " Western World " first generation immigrants generally  retain this  lean ness for various reasons including dietary practices adn as you mentioned "excercise "( how many of the great marathon runners of recent years have come from E Africa ) .In your experience  How many ( ex ) Ethiopians, Somalians or Sudanese do you know that overweight ( or for that  matter obese - which is a growing  problem in N America ) I dont know any

RStephenT wrote:
I've worked with several black models over the years and recently.  They had really good figures and had a grace that I have found very appealing... so I'm not sure using a sterotype is a good approach.  To me if they take care of themselves and exercise some they look just fine... just like anybody else.  Each ethnic type has characteristics that distinquish them from others; for me that is the appeal.

Point taken...

However there there is a difference between  stereotypes and  the general demographic characteristics of  a population

Garry k wrote:

Assumptions , assumptions , assumptions


Im not trying to incite anything except some intellengent  conversation regarding this  issue ....As I do not think of myslef as a racist - if I question racist attitudes and practices - Am  I a trouble maker .....?

Think I may start a discussion entitled "Why are there hardly ever  any black models featured in Italian Vogue "....Im curious about that one too ......

I didn't say you were racist.  I accussed you of believing Americans ARE racist.  My basis on this is that you have more than once started a thread concerning Black American models vs Black models from other nations.