DreamPretty wrote:
Most important to me as a model is to feel respected, and paying is a good way to start. Especially if there are not a lot or any prints to be expected out of the bargain. It's also a good way to get started with a model, and she may be more generous if the photographer is more generous. For instance, she may make time in her schedule, or be abailable for test and non-paying casual shoots (hint, hint).

So, the model gets respect when the photographer pays them, right?  So, when would the photographer get the respect that they deserve? 

You should be able to respect someone without paying out all kinds of money.  Last time I checked, respect was earned and not bought.

NC17 wrote:
Frankly, with my schedule what it is, I can't afford to devote time to TFP. There are VERY few photographers that get that, and its only because I thoroughly enjoy working with them, and they are good friends outside of the studio. My time is too valuable for me to give it away to someone.

I am highly appreciative of the photographers that have taken the time to pay me. I do my best to meet their standards and requests for work to the best of my ability and work hard to be professional and punctual.

Getting paid really lets me know the photographer values me and the results that I provide for them.

Well Frankly My Dear
I will not afford the time or money to work with ignorant models who have no respect for a photographer's skill or for what they may have invested in their career. Any model who post their do's and don't and what they want paid for their do's will not work with me period. Yes I do get paid for shooting models and yes I will do TFPs with models and Yes I do pay models that have a look that I want. But most important I have the greatest respect any model who steps in front of my camera  But for a model to come out and tell me up front '"his is what their worth", is kinda of joke because, Most of the time on these internet modeling sites isn't the photographer who directs the model? , tells the model what they are looking and now in this digital age isn't it the photographer work that really shows and get the model seen?  Gee want would a modeling agency say. Yes it really easy for me to find a pretty face to stand in front of my lens and maybe even shed their clothing for free Wake up Girl! judging by your ignorances and your portfolio you're very narrow minded for what you are good for and you could be better.  Remember a real professional model has tear sheets not just internet model portfolios.  Respect goes a long ways between models and photographers
Amen

Thomas B wrote:

Not correct for your objectives but who are to say what is right for someone else?

If you read the thread more closely you'll notice that I was very, very explicit in saying that my advice was only directed towards those planning or trying to become professional fashion/beauty photographers.

Andy

Jose Luis wrote:
lol- its only money.

I guess I`ll feel that way too when I`m making $5,000+ a week lol!

*ps I have`nt paid a model in 7 years! And I still get what I want, I think if you have the right niche' photographer or model....you can make all the rules and have them work in your favor*

Ken Long wrote:

So, the model gets respect when the photographer pays them, right?  So, when would the photographer get the respect that they deserve? 

You should be able to respect someone without paying out all kinds of money.  Last time I checked, respect was earned and not bought.

"All kinds of money?" I think you're overreacting here. I suggested that respect was first and foremost. I suggested that compensation for the model's time and nudity was one way to get off on the right foot. I never equated respect with paying "all kinds of money." You're fixation on your rights as a photographer makes you less appealing to me as a model already. You cannot say that the photographer deserves respect, but the model doesn't...but you seem to think it's an either/or kind of thing. If photogs are honest from the get-go, they will find that models are not eager to get naked for free. This has nothing to do with being a prude or not respecting the photographer...it's more of an insurance thing.

Finally, if a photographer deserves respect he will earn it or drop the model who wastes his time. The proof's in the picture, and that's a fact. If the photog solicits the model, then apparently he thinks she's worth shooting. But that does not mean that the model is similarly interested in the photog. Think about it.

Steve Thornton wrote:
Never forget, as long as you get the model one STUNNING image, they will want to shoot with you again.

This is true. Plus, it shows the model that you want to take the time to do your job as a photographer, which is to provide a finished final product.

Steve Thornton wrote:
A good friend, who is also an International fashion & beauty photographer, told me years ago that the key to getting the stunning imagery “is the girls.â€? He was, and still is, correct.

Steve Thornton

Also, and I don't know if this means I'm shallow, but I'm more inclined to shoot with a photographer (paid or tfp) who has stunning girls or familiar faces in his port. *shrugs*  edit: I'm not saying you have to pay to get stunning girls. Many photographers don't.

I can think of a photographer who only accepts paid work, because he "did all his testing in school". The girls in his port are less than attractive and I find the whole thing laughable. But that's another story!

On the other hand, there is a photographer visiting MI this weekend, and he went through a local agency to find girls to shoot. The pay isn't that much, but he is also giving us images and after looking at his portfolio, it is a good deal!

Angel Tara wrote:

Also, and I don't know if this means I'm shallow, but I'm more inclined to shoot with a photographer (paid or tfp) who has stunning girls or familiar faces in his port. *shrugs*  edit: I'm not saying you have to pay to get stunning girls. Many photographers don't.

I can think of a photographer who only accepts paid work, because he "did all his testing in school". The girls in his port are less than attractive and I find the whole thing laughable. But that's another story!

On the other hand, there is a photographer visiting MI this weekend, and he went through a local agency to find girls to shoot. The pay isn't that much, but he is also giving us images and after looking at his portfolio, it is a good deal!

This is a good point.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
whenever you see a model who has a look you love
or will really add to your book, pay.

Has a certain logic to it, and yet doesn't.

The photographer who's already arranging, say, hair, makeup, and wardrobe, not to mention any fees for special location permits and his/her overhead of running a business, would have to have the kind of disposable income to continue throwing [all that] in and still paying ...

Granted, there are exceptions (e.g., perhaps an opportunity to work with a well-established model? or a celebrity?), but even then the professional, much like those in other careers (e.g., physician, attorney, etc.), has to establish some rate for his/her time & experience. For these, perhaps, doing "just business" takes priority over 'getting what one wants' ?

Just two cents,
FML

FML-Photography wrote:

Has a certain logic to it, and yet doesn't.

The photographer who's already arranging, say, hair, makeup, and wardrobe, not to mention any fees for special location permits and his/her overhead of running a business, would have to have the kind of disposable income to continue throwing [all that] in and still paying ...

Granted, there are exceptions (e.g., perhaps an opportunity to work with a well-established model? or a celebrity?), but even then the professional, much like those in other careers (e.g., physician, attorney, etc.), has to establish some rate for his/her time & experience. For these, perhaps, doing "just business" takes priority over 'getting what one wants' ?

Just two cents,
FML

If you are paying all that money for all of those other things, why would you then do a trade with a lesser, inexperienced model. I am not saying that all models who do trade are lesser models but here on the internet it usually holds true. Paying for makeup, hair, wardrobe, location and then grabbing some TFP model is like travelling to some fancy place, making a reservation at your favorite restaurant and then having domino's deliver a pizza to your table because you wanted to save a few bucks.

Lohkee wrote:
Me thinks the real problem is that many wannabe models have no understanding of basic business and get their advice from others on the forums who are likewise clueless or by perusing the profiles of other wannabes – the net result of which is that the vast majority are destined to become nothing more than dust in the wind. The irony here is that some could probably make a living by freelancing and actually do pretty well for themselves if they just took the time to understand basic business/economics.

Bottom line is simply this: If you are not meeting whatever financial goals you have set for yourself as a model it is either because there is not a large enough market for your particular look or the type of modeling assignment that you are willing to do, or because you have priced yourself out of said market altogether either by asking for too much or by making demands that your market is simply not willing to accept. Frankly, I see no reason at all why a serious model that is willing to travel cannot pull 6K/mo working about 4hrs/day and charging $50/hr.

I had a shoot this morning and Ive got another one tomorrow.  Ive got another lined up for Wednesday evening.  None of the guys are professional photographers and all of them are paying me.  I dont normally do TFP/CD and I dont need to.  Sometimes I think that most of the 'models' on here havent done any real modeling.

Ken Long wrote:

So, the model gets respect when the photographer pays them, right?  So, when would the photographer get the respect that they deserve? 

You should be able to respect someone without paying out all kinds of money.  Last time I checked, respect was earned and not bought.

I couldn't agree with you more, Ken ....

Thomas B wrote:

If you are paying all that money for all of those other things, why would you then do a trade with a lesser, inexperienced model. I am not saying that all models who do trade are lesser models but here on the internet it usually holds true. Paying for makeup, hair, wardrobe, location and then grabbing some TFP model is like travelling to some fancy place, making a reservation at your favorite restaurant and then having domino's deliver a pizza to your table because you wanted to save a few bucks.

This is excellent and part of my point.  Look paying models isn't something every
photographer needs to do.  Quite frankly there are some photographers who are wonderfull I don't exactly fall into that area.  The thing is very often but not
always a TFP will net you models who while attractive aren't quite up to certain
standards.  Look at my profile here.  There is a Asian model in yellow string.
Pretty girl, yes.  Model, not at all.  In this case the model I planned to use and
pay couldn't make it.  Would this have been a better image with that model?
Damm right!  I look at many of the photographers work here and some of it is
wonderfull but falls apart when you look at the model.  She may have a few
extra pounds or facial expressions that look like she is constipated or that
deer in the headlights of a car look.  Don't get me wrong I love each and every
model that has given their time and talent to me.  I think they are wonderfull
but they aren't fashion or beauty models mostly.  The poster I quoted makes
a valid point.  Why would you invest in all the other things and chance it all
on not only a TFP model but one who while attractive is stiff and expressionless.
Photographers who are near a major market like New York, L.A. , Chicago or
Miami often have a large pool of beautifull models to choose from.  So this
isn't quite for them.  Back to my image with the string.  Small things like her
tummy and the panty line.  She was very shy and wasn't taking them off to
smooth that area.  The model I missed was 5'11" with a super flat tummy.
Bad image, I like it but it falls apart because of I had to somewhat
settle.  Again she's beautifull but I think you get what I mean.

Tony Lawrence wrote:

This is excellent and part of my point.  Look paying models isn't something every
photographer needs to do.  Quite frankly there are some photographers who are wonderfull I don't exactly fall into that area.  The thing is very often but not
always a TFP will net you models who while attractive aren't quite up to certain
standards.  Look at my profile here.  There is a Asian model in yellow string.
Pretty girl, yes.  Model, not at all.  In this case the model I planned to use and
pay couldn't make it.  Would this have been a better image with that model?
Damm right!  I look at many of the photographers work here and some of it is
wonderfull but falls apart when you look at the model.  She may have a few
extra pounds or facial expressions that look like she is constipated or that
deer in the headlights of a car look.  Don't get me wrong I love each and every
model that has given their time and talent to me.  I think they are wonderfull
but they aren't fashion or beauty models mostly.  The poster I quoted makes
a valid point.  Why would you invest in all the other things and chance it all
on not only a TFP model but one who while attractive is stiff and expressionless.
Photographers who are near a major market like New York, L.A. , Chicago or
Miami often have a large pool of beautifull models to choose from.  So this
isn't quite for them.  Back to my image with the string.  Small things like her
tummy and the panty line.  She was very shy and wasn't taking them off to
smooth that area.  The model I missed was 5'11" with a super flat tummy.
Bad image, I like it but it falls apart because of I had to somewhat
settle.  Again she's beautifull but I think you get what I mean.

I like the specificity of your comment here. It would be interesting to see more examples of paid vs. unpaid models to see how much the quality of the image is really effected.

_Cinnamon_ wrote:

I like the specificity of your comment here. It would be interesting to see more examples of paid vs. unpaid models to see how much the quality of the image is really effected.

Payment is just part of the equation of course.  Lets take you for example.
You're very attractive and I'm not saying that to kiss your ass.  Anyway
a photographer offers a shoot to you lets say in a nice location he hires a
MUA and all of a sudden you get a paid offer.  Which do you do?  Maybe
its a fun event you want to go to.  Paying at least helps insure a model is
moltivated to show up.  Now there are some models here who I wouldn't
pay even if I was Bill Gates but I'm digging in my pocket if it is a model I
really want to shoot. Paying doesn't insure quality but helps to insure people
will show up on time and makes them also feel they are valued.

Star wrote:
I could never pay a model unless the shoot was already sold to someone else, like a gallery, a t-shirt company ect...

Star

Bingo ! Photographer are not suppsed to be clients for Models!

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Paying at least helps insure a model is
moltivated to show up.  Now there are some models here who I wouldn't
pay even if I was Bill Gates but I'm digging in my pocket if it is a model I
really want to shoot. Paying doesn't insure quality but helps to insure people
will show up on time and makes them also feel they are valued.

Not necessarily. I would say image quality is a good motivating factor as well. If your photos are boring and of poor quality, then yes, I would say you should pay your models, because otherwise the only people who will be willing to work with you will be wannabe models who just like the idea of having their picture taken by a "real photoghapher" - you know, the girls on here whose entire "portfolios" are self-taken webcam shots. If your work is beautiful and the models would still ditch a TFP shoot with you to do paid work elsewhere, are those really the kind of people you want to work with?

(Please note that my opinions of "poor quality" vs. "beautiful" are not comments on the quoted photographer's work.)

Catriona wrote:

Not necessarily. I would say image quality is a good motivating factor as well. If your photos are boring and of poor quality, then yes, I would say you should pay your models, because otherwise the only people who will be willing to work with you will be wannabe models who just like the idea of having their picture taken by a "real photoghapher" - you know, the girls on here whose entire "portfolios" are self-taken webcam shots. If your work is beautiful and the models would still ditch a TFP shoot with you to do paid work elsewhere, are those really the kind of people you want to work with?
(Please note that my opinions of "poor quality" vs. "beautiful" are not comments on the quoted photographer's work.)

There are some really good shooters here who are complaining about no show
models.  This isn't to say that paying those models is a total answer but if
I have a great ideal and or location, etc I won't leave to chance a TFP models
showing up.  A while back I had a chance to work with a really cool MUA
she's on this site.  I offered a TFP with several local models.  Two showed
and neither was worth the effort or the time involved.  Thats mostly my fault.
I worked with who showed up but it was a wasted day for both of us.  Contrast that with paying even a small amount.  I would be more likely to get the kind
of models that would have made it worthwhile.  As I also said this isn't for everyone and
I can't and wouldn't pay for every model I could shoot.  I base it on her book
and look.  Just as most of the models here wouldn't pay or shoot with every
photographer.  I for example don't shoot the infamous ass in the air shots or
thong up a models butt photos so many here do well.  Nothing wrong with that
type of glamour shots but I don't do that.  I also hear from models who are
seeking payment and many of those aren't my taste but when I see a look I
like and she is seeking payment I'm not thinking well let me offer TFP if she
says only paid work.  I ask how much is she asking.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
There have been lots of threads on TFP being good or bad I'm
here to say that whenever you see a model who has a look you love
or will really add to your book, pay.  Don't get me wrong TFP is wonderfull and a great way to improve but how often are we reading about no show models.  Paying means you get what you want.  No compromises.  It means that really cool ideal you have for shooting behind the waterfall gets done.  It also means the images are yours no
having to provide images to anyone.  Paying isn't an option for many
photographers and its a personal choice but its often the diference between getting the model you really want and having to use a model who isn't your first choice.  Some of you have made a great point about payment, saying why should I pay, clients pay.  Thats true but to get to that point you often need fantastic or really solid work and many times although your work may be good the models you have access to aren't.
Paying for the models you want insures at least you have the face and figure that appeals to you.

Perfect! Thanks for saying that, these kids will be so grateful to actually get paid, there's nothing like money to inspire a model in her beginning phases... What a great gesture. Great post and great supportive follow ups, we need more of this as opposed to photographers screwing the models and video taping and then claiming to be the victim (as was featured on a previous post). Some guys spend excessive amounts (thousands) on the latest photographic equipment and yet fail to see the importance of slipping the models a few bucks for their contribution to the shoot. SALUTE!

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Payment is just part of the equation of course.  Lets take you for example.
You're very attractive and I'm not saying that to kiss your ass.  Anyway
a photographer offers a shoot to you lets say in a nice location he hires a
MUA and all of a sudden you get a paid offer.  Which do you do?  Maybe
its a fun event you want to go to.  Paying at least helps insure a model is
moltivated to show up.  Now there are some models here who I wouldn't
pay even if I was Bill Gates but I'm digging in my pocket if it is a model I
really want to shoot. Paying doesn't insure quality but helps to insure people
will show up on time and makes them also feel they are valued.

All other things being equal (and they rarely are) yes, I'd give preference to a paying photographer. I think once money is changing hands, it does kick things up a notch in terms of professionalism. It feels more like a contractual agreement that you feel obliged to honor rather than just something you're doing casually for enjoyment. So yeah, I agree with you that if you've taken the time and effort to plan a great shoot, then it's worthwhile if you can to make that little extra investment to get the right model and motivate her to follow through.

I'm not really sure why you're encountering so much resistance to that idea in this thread. That said, it's worth keeping in mind that not all models are best motivated by money.

_Cinnamon_ wrote:
I think once money is changing hands, it does kick things up a notch in terms of professionalism. It feels more like a contractual agreement that you feel obliged to honor rather than just something you're doing casually for enjoyment.

My experience is completely the opposite.  The moment money enters the sitauation, it just becomes a "job," with  creativity and passion replaced with an attitude of "just do it" that makes so much of the commercial work i see so by-the-numbers.  99.9% of my work is TFP/CD and I never have a problem with models being "unprofessional".  Granted, the fact that I'm not trying to make a pile of money from my work gives me the luxury of doing only what i want to with people who are into my style, but I can say with certainty that money isn't what makes a situation "professional" -- people are either professional about what they do or they aren't.  You can't buy charachter...The fact that so many models in this thread seem to equate money with professionalism and respect makes me glad I don't deal with the mainstream of the industry.

Melvin Moten Jr wrote:

My experience is completely the opposite.  The moment money enters the sitauation, it just becomes a "job," with  creativity and passion replaced with an attitude of "just do it" that makes so much of the commercial work i see so by-the-numbers.  99.9% of my work is TFP/CD and I never have a problem with models being "unprofessional".  Granted, the fact that I'm not trying to make a pile of money from my work gives me the luxury of doing only what i want to with people who are into my style, but I can say with certainty that money isn't what makes a situation "professional" -- people are either professional about what they do or they aren't.  You can't buy charachter...The fact that so many models in this thread seem to equate money with professionalism and respect makes me glad I don't deal with the mainstream of the industry.

I feel the same way you do. I personally prefer not getting paid and getting to collaborate and be creative to being paid and feeling like a glorified prop who's just trying to please the photographer. But when you're in a situation where even just getting a model to show up and be ready to shoot is an issue, I think money can help with that. Because many models don't think the way you and I do. Or they say they do, but they don't actually follow through.

Liberty wrote:
photographers that pay (it dosnt really matter how much, just the fact that they value your work and time) really get put to the top of a models priorities. I will be on time, answer every email even if it is inconvienient, and return phone calls to a paying photographer. i will also clear my schedule for them. it makes all the difference in the world. even though, TFCD shoots are good for everyone, they just are not as important.

amber rose

In my opinion, a model should treat EVERY shoot with that kind of professionalism, whether it's paid or not!! That is what being a professional at your trade is all about. It is not just about collecting a check from the photographer!

I may be selective about what TFP I accept, but I do not treat a TFP project that I do accept with any less professionalism just because payment is not in the form of cash or check. It's a matter of integrity. IMO, to show up late for a shoot, or not return emails or phone calls, is simply unprofessional. While I may give more scheduling priority to client-driven paid assignments, I treat every job that I accept, paid or otherwise, with the same high standards.

Melvin Moten Jr wrote:

My experience is completely the opposite.  The moment money enters the sitauation, it just becomes a "job," with  creativity and passion replaced with an attitude of "just do it" that makes so much of the commercial work i see so by-the-numbers.  99.9% of my work is TFP/CD and I never have a problem with models being "unprofessional".  Granted, the fact that I'm not trying to make a pile of money from my work gives me the luxury of doing only what i want to with people who are into my style, but I can say with certainty that money isn't what makes a situation "professional" -- people are either professional about what they do or they aren't.  You can't buy charachter...The fact that so many models in this thread seem to equate money with professionalism and respect makes me glad I don't deal with the mainstream of the industry.

As a artist it would be nice to find models with a passion for creating art
or those who would try to share your passion but sadly thats not always the case.
Being paid as some noted doesn't make you a pro but notice who complains about
no show models or models demanding photos or most of the drama we see on
this board.  I gave several examples of the problems with TFP and in many cases
I'd perfer models who are more intrested in working to create works of art or beauty.  Models like Cinnamon who is a great part of this conversation  is unique.
She and a few others really enjoy working with the photographer.  I note her other
thread this is a thinking model not a model who just shows up with a smile
and a mini skirt.  As a photographer a great deal of my energy is used in trying
to find and get models to shoot.  Lots of the creative energy I should be using
toward producing my art is spent calling and trying to arrange shoots.  Then
when they don't happen what a let down,  I'm not alone in this. Week after week
I read threads about no show models and within these threads are very sad and
frustrated photographers. The answer isn't to pay every model but for those inspired moments and great concepts don't trust any of that to TFP.

Andrea-Anderson wrote:

In my opinion, a model should treat EVERY shoot with that kind of professionalism, whether it's paid or not!! That is what being a professional at your trade is all about. It is not just about collecting a check from the photographer!

I may be selective about what TFP I accept, but I do not treat a TFP project that I do accept with any less professionalism just because payment is not in the form of cash or check. It's a matter of integrity. IMO, to show up late for a shoot, or not return emails or phone calls, is simply unprofessional. While I may give more scheduling priority to client-driven paid assignments, I treat every job that I accept, paid or otherwise, with the same high standards.

You are one of the few models who feels this way.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
You are one of the few models who feels this way.

Sad, isn't it! ;-)