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The case for paying models
There have been lots of threads on TFP being good or bad I'm here to say that whenever you see a model who has a look you love or will really add to your book, pay. Don't get me wrong TFP is wonderfull and a great way to improve but how often are we reading about no show models. Paying means you get what you want. No compromises. It means that really cool ideal you have for shooting behind the waterfall gets done. It also means the images are yours no having to provide images to anyone. Paying isn't an option for many photographers and its a personal choice but its often the diference between getting the model you really want and having to use a model who isn't your first choice. Some of you have made a great point about payment, saying why should I pay, clients pay. Thats true but to get to that point you often need fantastic or really solid work and many times although your work may be good the models you have access to aren't. Paying for the models you want insures at least you have the face and figure that appeals to you. May 18 06 06:26 pm Link Exactly. May 18 06 06:28 pm Link I agree....you get what you pay for May 18 06 06:33 pm Link Not exactly. Often true and certainly worth consideration but not always the best way to go. While there are many instances where paying a model is entirely appropriate as a photographer, and I don't mean to suggest that models are any less deserving of payment for their time than any one else in the employment world, there are many circumstances under which other arrangements work fine. There are also many situations in which a TF-Whatever model is just right, completely capable of providing the look needed and really great to work with. It should not be assumed that just because a model is being paid that she will provide a better working capability either. Most of us have run into models that have no real sense of their own worth and make unreasonable compensation demands. Such models can often be very difficult to work with and, in the worst case scenario, can completely ruin a shoot. So, sometimes the OP is absolutely right but sometimes not. We are lucky to have some really great models who do feel a need to be compensated monetarily and some who are happy building book, etc. Let's not "devalue" the contributions of either. May 18 06 06:42 pm Link Frankly, with my schedule what it is, I can't afford to devote time to TFP. There are VERY few photographers that get that, and its only because I thoroughly enjoy working with them, and they are good friends outside of the studio. My time is too valuable for me to give it away to someone. I am highly appreciative of the photographers that have taken the time to pay me. I do my best to meet their standards and requests for work to the best of my ability and work hard to be professional and punctual. Getting paid really lets me know the photographer values me and the results that I provide for them. May 18 06 06:43 pm Link PS: Go look at NC17's profile - she is an example of a model who prefers to be paid and who happens to know how to go about presenting herself properly. Her rates are very reasonable and the tone of her profile is professional - not demanding, sarcastic, clueless, etc. If I were in her area and I wanted to do something for which her look was a match, I would pay her in a heartbeat. In the end, its all about presentation, common sense and what works. May 18 06 06:53 pm Link If a model is working, pay them. If they are practicing, help move them toward work. May 18 06 06:56 pm Link Lets say you have a great location and a MUA. Now you need a model. So off you go seeking that great TFP model. Maybe she'll show. Maybe she won't, paying her at least puts the odds in your favor. You get the model you want instead of a model that might show up. Don't get me wrong, I've shot some wonderfull women. Notice I didn't say models. Oh I've shot a few but there few and far between. If I had the $$$ I'd pay. Some of you are pretty lucky you live near locations where there are lots of serious, beautifull models who actually show for shoots. This doesn't mean you pay every model. You'll be broke quickly and having a great model who connects with you so you can work on creative ideals is great. I look at lots of the photographers work here. Man some of it is so nice. Sexy lighting, cool locations, intresting ideal but the model looks like a Doberman. This was a pay a model moment. May 18 06 07:01 pm Link I could never pay a model unless the shoot was already sold to someone else, like a gallery, a t-shirt company ect... Star May 19 06 02:13 am Link J Merrill Images wrote: May 19 06 02:55 am Link photographers that pay (it dosnt really matter how much, just the fact that they value your work and time) really get put to the top of a models priorities. I will be on time, answer every email even if it is inconvienient, and return phone calls to a paying photographer. i will also clear my schedule for them. it makes all the difference in the world. even though, TFCD shoots are good for everyone, they just are not as important. amber rose May 19 06 03:05 am Link You could have guessed I'd have to stick my 2cents in here... My initial experience with a paid model has been a disaster. We communicated, we negotiated, we set a date, she cancelled the evening before the shoot So maybe I just need to let the law of averages go to work for me, huh? May 19 06 03:20 am Link I will do TFP/CD, but, to be honest, it's easier to pay. The model turns up, you shoot the photos, you get the Release signed, you pay the model, and that's the end of it. You don't get any of the problems that most of the people on MM moan about. May 19 06 03:35 am Link Right now, due to my financial situation, I would prefer to do TFP/TFCD, however, as a photographer who doesn't have a big or varied book yet I am having to pay most of my model(s). Do I wish I could get paid, of course I do. Do I begrudge the model his/her wanting to make some $, absolutely not. The model has as much right to earn $ as I do. May 19 06 03:51 am Link RED Photographic wrote: Exactly!! May 19 06 05:45 am Link Everyone's situation is different, every time you plan a shoot. Just like any business, it boils down to a negotiation between two people. Just do whatever works for you at that time. Sometimes I gladly pay, sometimes I want to trade, no big deal. Everyone's time and effort has value. May 19 06 06:59 am Link Liberty wrote: A good model will treat a quality photographer with a respectful amount of priority regardless of whether there's money involved or not [and vice versa]. I never pay models, but I seem to have no shortage of people interested in working with me. May 19 06 07:16 am Link Melvin Moten Jr wrote: I read her reply as, a paying job has a higher priority than does a TFP job. That's her decision, doesn't have to be yours. May 19 06 08:41 am Link I think it's cool that finally someone has said this. Most important to me as a model is to feel respected, and paying is a good way to start. Especially if there are not a lot or any prints to be expected out of the bargain. It's also a good way to get started with a model, and she may be more generous if the photographer is more generous. For instance, she may make time in her schedule, or be abailable for test and non-paying casual shoots (hint, hint). Sooooo many photogs here are all about the nudes, but pretend like they just wanna take pictures. Be honest, photogs, and let the girl know what you want from the start. Then payment won't become a big deal in the end. May 19 06 08:57 am Link Tony Lawrence wrote: J Merrill Images wrote: I agree with both. As I'm more likely to consider a paid assignment (as are most), I've never been late or not shown up for a TFP. In fact, all the images in my port right now have been TFP. I make sure to give my best no matter what because it's not only helping me, it might be helping the photographer as well. Some people are just not considerate or responsible enough to have the decency of worrying about that sort of thing. It really just depends on the character of that person, and that is what is sad. It seems a lot of times, the model doesn't put in her all unless she is guaranteed something in the end. May 19 06 09:09 am Link People will argue the "To Pay or not to Pay" question forever but it all comes down to what works best for your objectives. My objective from the start was to make money doing something I love. I started photographing models 1 year ago this month and paid for almost every shoot. By paying for models I got what I wanted...... I got beautiful models that made my book look great. Now I can charge for jobs and make money from doing something I love. I had an objective......I paid money to get it......and now it's paying me back. Everyone has a different objective so whatever works for you is the way to go. May 19 06 09:32 am Link Red Sky Photography wrote: That's not what she said. If she had I would have let it go. And I do believe I said "whatever works for you." Red Sky Photography wrote: I've actually done so on many occasions. I'll always pass up a boring paid job for an interesting TFP shoot. I don't do photography for money. Red Sky Photography wrote: Hey, pay all the models you want, man. I enjoy the fact that excellent models from all over want to work with me simply because they like what I do, regardless of money. Red Sky Photography wrote: I didn't say there was. Never assume. May 19 06 09:45 am Link Melvin Moten Jr wrote: Red Sky Photography wrote: That's not what she said. If she had I would have let it go. And I do believe I said "whatever works for you." May 19 06 11:13 am Link Melvin Moten Jr wrote: I am glad that you can afford to pass up the paying jobs... some of us just can't. May 19 06 11:49 am Link Why is it that someone always feels the need to make hard and fast rules when the situation is always a negotiation (at least on the freelance level)? Sometimes pay works nicely. Sometimes TFP works. Sometimes it takes a little of both to come to a meeting of the minds that allows the work to go on. There are no "rules" to what makes a shoot happen ... just negotiations and agreements between model and photographer ... and as long as those agreements are honored, everything is hunky-dory. There are models who are no-shows, but then there are photographers who promise images and never deliver, too. We hope they're in the minority ... but offering to pay is no guarantee either way ... models who don't take the craft seriously or don't have any self respect will still "no-show" and photographers who think they're somehow better than their word will continue to stiff models on their photographs. But most of us get along nicely by talking through what we need from the other and arriving at an understanding that works for both ... May 19 06 12:02 pm Link NC17 wrote: Didn't anyone ever tell you not to give up your day job? I made a concious decision early on that I would rather work a 9 to 5 and do only the work I enjoy rather than be a "professional" and chase after boring jobs and idiot clients. From all the carping and whining I see around here about money, I seem to have made the right choice [for me]. May 19 06 12:26 pm Link Red Sky Photography wrote: Right. And I simply took that statement to a perfectly logical conclusion. I know lots of GWCs here in Pgh that always pay...I know they pay because all their models come to me when they want something good. The whole point of my post was to ask who the model would rather shoot with -- A guy who pays her 50 bucks to sprawl across the hood of a car in a star-spangled bikini [i'm not kidding] or someone who'll view them as a collaborator on something creative? May 19 06 12:35 pm Link As several of you have said payment or TFP isn't a hard and fast rule but if you are planning to go pro and you also plan to shoot fashion and beauty images or even commercial work of people then you better get models that have a great look. Yes it is possible to get some of those models starting out but what is more likely is you'll get models who while attractive aren't really models. They may have a few extra pounds or bad skin or teeth. Things that can helped by Photoshop which for me takes hours and is a pain to do. Paying helps insure you get not only the models to show up on time but helps remove the issue of what she's being given as far as photos. It means you don't have to worry about giving her images that she may not like. This equation is different for those who are strictly planning on keeping this as a hobby or those who live close to the major markets. It all comes down too, you have a great location you maybe won't have access to later. You have a MUA maybe willing to work for images or very cheap. So YOU want to chance it all on models who as many of you see are very indifferent about TFP. Spend a few $$$ get it done. Later when maybe its not the same then hey TFP means if she doesn't show who cares. I'm planning a trip to N.Y. I plan to pay some of the models I shoot. This will hopefully put the odds I will get to shoot in my favor or I can HOPE some will come for TFP. May 19 06 12:45 pm Link Melvin Moten Jr wrote: Where did I say I had given up my day job? I have a job, I work modeling to make extra money so that the ends hopefully meet and there is left over for us to be able to afford to do the things in life that are important, like getting ahead for once. May 19 06 02:17 pm Link NC17 wrote: I said working a 9 to 5 was the right choice for me. The fact is, nobody is going to pay me to do what I do and I accpet that. I can either change what I do to fit the "industry" or I can keep working the day job and do what I want on my time. I chose the latter, which works for me. May 19 06 07:29 pm Link I've pd. painfully few models in my day....and EVERY time I had, it was AWESOME. May 19 06 07:41 pm Link Michael Barian wrote: I quite agree. I'm paying a model in August...But she's absolutely the best. May 19 06 07:48 pm Link NC17 wrote: Most photographers could say the same about models. It really is a two-way street. May 19 06 07:53 pm Link Melvin Moten Jr wrote: You're absolutely right. I attempt to maintain professionalism and courtesy no matter who is asking for what. Its just plain and simple. But then again, I also attempt to wave at those that let me into traffic, and allow others into traffic, and smile at them when I do. But not everyone is the same, unfortunately. May 19 06 08:01 pm Link As several of you have said payment or TFP isn't a hard and fast rule but if you Ok, I'm sorry but I have to say something here because I don't want people reading this and assuming it's true. May 19 06 08:02 pm Link I'll preface my comment with a repeated point of view - there are many situations wher paying a model is fine any many models whom I would pay. That said, a model that must be paid in order to feel respected is probably not a model I will work with. May 19 06 08:13 pm Link A. H A M I L T O N wrote: The agency route is the best way to get good models but to get the kind of May 19 06 08:25 pm Link Still not correct, but I find I lack the desire to argue on the Internet anymore. If your work is technically and artistically proficient and up to standards, those who judge photographs on a daily basis can look past subject limitations...especially if they're in a position where supplying subject is a fundamental aspect of their job. Andy May 19 06 10:33 pm Link Tony Lawrence wrote: Not always. May 19 06 10:40 pm Link A. H A M I L T O N wrote: Not correct for your objectives but who are to say what is right for someone else? May 19 06 10:45 pm Link |