J Merrill Images wrote:
Not exactly. Often true and certainly worth consideration but not always the best way to go.

While there are many instances where paying a model is entirely appropriate as a photographer,...  There are also many situations in which a TF-Whatever model is just right, completely capable of providing the look needed and really great to work with. It should not be assumed that just because a model is being paid that she will provide a better working capability either. Most of us have run into models that have no real sense of their own worth and make unreasonable compensation demands. Such models can often be very difficult to work with and, in the worst case scenario, can completely ruin a shoot.

I agree!

Not all markets are the same.  Whereas I tend to pay models I also am reluctant to pay for someone,s education.  Inexperienced models need to pay photographers.  However, I am well aware some models have thin financial resources.

RED Photographic wrote:
I will do TFP/CD, but, to be honest, it's easier to pay.  The model turns up, you shoot the photos, you get the Release signed, you pay the model, and that's the end of it.

You don't get any of the problems that most of the people on MM moan about.

Exactly!!

Liberty wrote:
photographers that pay (it dosnt really matter how much, just the fact that they value your work and time) really get put to the top of a models priorities. I will be on time, answer every email even if it is inconvienient, and return phone calls to a paying photographer. i will also clear my schedule for them. it makes all the difference in the world. even though, TFCD shoots are good for everyone, they just are not as important.

amber rose

A good model will treat a quality photographer with a respectful amount of priority regardless of whether there's money involved or not [and vice versa].  I never pay models, but I seem to have no shortage of people interested in working with me. 

Basically, your axiom tells us that a GWC who offers you money receives better treatment than a really good photographer who doesn't.  Whatever works for you, I suppose.

Melvin Moten Jr wrote:

A good model will treat a quality photographer with a respectful amount of priority regardless of whether there's money involved or not [and vice versa].  I never pay models, but I seem to have no shortage of people interested in working with me. 

Basically, your axiom tells us that a GWC who offers you money receives better treatment than a really good photographer who doesn't.  Whatever works for you, I suppose.

I read her reply as, a paying job has a higher priority than does a TFP job. That's her decision, doesn't have to be yours.

Are you saying that you would turn away a paying job as a photographer to shoot a TFP job ?

So 'you' never pay models, does that mean no one should.

There is no correct answer to this question.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
There have been lots of threads on TFP being good or bad I'm
here to say that whenever you see a model who has a look you love
or will really add to your book, pay.  Don't get me wrong TFP is wonderfull and a great way to improve but how often are we reading about no show models.  Paying means you get what you want.  No compromises.  It means that really cool ideal you have for shooting behind the waterfall gets done.  It also means the images are yours no
having to provide images to anyone.  Paying isn't an option for many
photographers and its a personal choice but its often the diference between getting the model you really want and having to use a model who isn't your first choice.  Some of you have made a great point about payment, saying why should I pay, clients pay.  Thats true but to get to that point you often need fantastic or really solid work and many times although your work may be good the models you have access to aren't.
Paying for the models you want insures at least you have the face and figure that appeals to you.

J Merrill Images wrote:
Not exactly. Often true and certainly worth consideration but not always the best way to go.

While there are many instances where paying a model is entirely appropriate as a photographer, and I don't mean to suggest that models are any less deserving of payment for their time than any one else in the employment world, there are many circumstances under which other arrangements work fine. There are also many situations in which a TF-Whatever model is just right, completely capable of providing the look needed and really great to work with. It should not be assumed that just because a model is being paid that she will provide a better working capability either. Most of us have run into models that have no real sense of their own worth and make unreasonable compensation demands. Such models can often be very difficult to work with and, in the worst case scenario, can completely ruin a shoot.

So, sometimes the OP is absolutely right but sometimes not. We are lucky to have some really great models who do feel a need to be compensated monetarily and some who are happy building book, etc. Let's not "devalue" to contributions of either.

I agree with both.  As I'm more likely to consider a paid assignment (as are most), I've never been late or not shown up for a TFP.  In fact, all the images in my port right now have been TFP.  I make sure to give my best no matter what because it's not only helping me, it might be helping the photographer as well.  Some people are just not considerate or responsible enough to have the decency of worrying about that sort of thing.  It really just depends on the character of that person, and that is what is sad.  It seems a lot of times, the model doesn't put in her all unless she is guaranteed something in the end.

Red Sky Photography wrote:
I read her reply as, a paying job has a higher priority than does a TFP job. That's her decision, doesn't have to be yours.

That's not what she said.  If she had I would have let it go.  And I do believe I said "whatever works for you."

Red Sky Photography wrote:
Are you saying that you would turn away a paying job as a photographer to shoot a TFP job ?

I've actually done so on many occasions.  I'll always pass up a boring paid job for an interesting TFP shoot.  I don't do photography for money.

Red Sky Photography wrote:
So 'you' never pay models, does that mean no one should.

Hey, pay all the models you want, man.  I enjoy the fact that excellent models from all over want to work with me simply because they like what I do, regardless of money.

Red Sky Photography wrote:
There is no correct answer to this question.

I didn't say there was.  Never assume.

Melvin Moten Jr wrote:

Red Sky Photography wrote:
I read her reply as, a paying job has a higher priority than does a TFP job. That's her decision, doesn't have to be yours.

That's not what she said.  If she had I would have let it go.  And I do believe I said "whatever works for you."

She said, TFCD was not as important to her as a paying job.

I said , that's how I read her statement, not assuming anything.

Melvin Moten Jr wrote:

I've actually done so on many occasions.  I'll always pass up a boring paid job for an interesting TFP shoot.  I don't do photography for money.

I am glad that you can afford to pass up the paying jobs... some of us just can't.

NC17 wrote:
I am glad that you can afford to pass up the paying jobs... some of us just can't.

Didn't anyone ever tell you not to give up your day job?  I made a concious decision early on that I would rather work a 9 to 5 and do only the work I enjoy rather than be a "professional" and chase after boring jobs and idiot clients.  From all the carping and whining I see around here about money, I seem to have made the right choice [for me].

...any paying offers I get, I'll be sure to pass them along.

Red Sky Photography wrote:
She said, TFCD was not as important to her as a paying job.

Right.  And I simply took that statement to a perfectly logical conclusion.  I know lots of GWCs here in Pgh that always pay...I know they pay because all their models come to me when they want something good.  The whole point of my post was to ask who the model would rather shoot with -- A guy who pays her 50 bucks to sprawl across the hood of a car in a star-spangled bikini [i'm not kidding] or someone who'll view them as a collaborator on something creative?

Whatever works for her is fine with me.  I just have a curious nature is all.

Melvin Moten Jr wrote:

Didn't anyone ever tell you not to give up your day job?  I made a concious decision early on that I would rather work a 9 to 5 and do only the work I enjoy rather than be a "professional" and chase after boring jobs and idiot clients.  From all the carping and whining I see around here about money, I seem to have made the right choice [for me].

...any paying offers I get, I'll be sure to pass them along.

Where did I say I had given up my day job? I have a job, I work modeling to make extra money so that the ends hopefully meet and there is left over for us to be able to afford to do the things in life that are important, like getting ahead for once.

When faced with the choice of pay or TFP, I'll likely take the pay almost every time. Why? Because the rent needs to be paid, a car payment, there are bills coming in, and I've got a six week trip coming up that is giving me opportunities to have a chance at earning more money in the future. Without the paying jobs that I recieve for modeling, I wouldn't be able to make it to the six week trip. Period. Not all of us have the luxury of being able to decide on a whim whether to do art for arts sake at the cost of our time, or make an investment in the time that will give us a return - in my case its supplies for my trip and a stash of money to purchase a second car so that I can stop worrying about having to take my boyfriend to work so that I can get to work too.

This isn't a pity party. This is a real statement that some of us are on the way up the ladder and need all the help we can get. TFP at this point is simply detremental to my efforts to get ahead. Thats why I comment that others are lucky they are at a point where they can afford to invest their time and gain a non-monetary return on it. I'd be relieved if I didn't have to constantly worry about setting up the next paying job... it would mean a lot of other things had changed in my life too.

Paying jobs? Sure send them this way.

NC17 wrote:

Where did I say I had given up my day job? I have a job, I work modeling to make extra money so that the ends hopefully meet and there is left over for us to be able to afford to do the things in life that are important, like getting ahead for once.

When faced with the choice of pay or TFP, I'll likely take the pay almost every time. Why? Because the rent needs to be paid, a car payment, there are bills coming in, and I've got a six week trip coming up that is giving me opportunities to have a chance at earning more money in the future. Without the paying jobs that I recieve for modeling, I wouldn't be able to make it to the six week trip. Period. Not all of us have the luxury of being able to decide on a whim whether to do art for arts sake at the cost of our time, or make an investment in the time that will give us a return - in my case its supplies for my trip and a stash of money to purchase a second car so that I can stop worrying about having to take my boyfriend to work so that I can get to work too.

This isn't a pity party. This is a real statement that some of us are on the way up the ladder and need all the help we can get. TFP at this point is simply detremental to my efforts to get ahead. Thats why I comment that others are lucky they are at a point where they can afford to invest their time and gain a non-monetary return on it. I'd be relieved if I didn't have to constantly worry about setting up the next paying job... it would mean a lot of other things had changed in my life too.

Paying jobs? Sure send them this way.

I said working a 9 to 5 was the right choice for me.  The fact is, nobody is going to pay me to do what I do and I accpet that.  I can either change what I do to fit the "industry" or I can keep working the day job and do what I want on my time.  I chose the latter, which works for me.

If you don't want to work TFP then you certainly shouldn't, but the idea that you're the only one sacrificing to do what you do is incorrect.  I make sacrifices too -- but to me they count for little as long as I'm able to do the work that I love.  As I said earlier in the thread, most of the people who work TFP with me demand pay from other photographers...I'm sure they have different reasons for making me the exception, but the fact is they do, which I like to think speaks well of me. 

I'm not saying that anyone else should be like me.  My only issue is with someone saying that money makes them return an email or phone call faster.  My mother taught me that courtesy is for everyone, not just people who can afford to buy it.

Michael Barian wrote:
I've pd. painfully few models in my day....and EVERY time I had,
it was AWESOME.

I quite agree.  I'm paying a model in August...But she's absolutely the best.

NC17 wrote:
Getting paid really lets me know the photographer values me and the results that I provide for them.

Most photographers could say the same about models.  It really is a two-way street.

Melvin Moten Jr wrote:
My only issue is with someone saying that money makes them return an email or phone call faster.  My mother taught me that courtesy is for everyone, not just people who can afford to buy it.

You're absolutely right. I attempt to maintain professionalism and courtesy no matter who is asking for what. Its just plain and simple. But then again, I also attempt to wave at those that let me into traffic, and allow others into traffic, and smile at them when I do. But not everyone is the same, unfortunately.

Courtesy and manners are a must no matter what the situation is. Giving the benefit of the doubt is also highly helpful (particularly online where it is tough to know the entire situation most of the time). Needing paying jobs does not preclude me from being kind to people as much as possible.

As several of you have said payment or TFP isn't a hard and fast rule but if you
are planning to go pro and you also plan to shoot fashion and beauty images or
even commercial work of people then you better get models that have a great
look.  Yes it is possible to get some of those models starting out but what is
more likely is you'll get models who while attractive aren't really models.

Ok, I'm sorry but I have to say something here because I don't want people reading this and assuming it's true.

If you are ANY good whatsoever and live near a fashion or beauty market of any size you can work with agency models for free with very few, specific exceptions.  If you aren't good enough yet, then it doesn't really matter what you have in your book because if you aren't up to the level of shooting the agencies want to see, the fact that your models are all 5'2" and buck toothed won't make a bit of difference.

If you DON'T live near a fashion or beauty market, then use what money you have to get near one if you think you have any shot of turning pro and are serious about it.

Now, that being said, I'm all for paying models in the right situation, but if you're serious about turning pro, then you have to have a certain business sense about you...and that's in almost every case contrary to making ANY case for paying a model.

Andy

A. H A M I L T O N wrote:

Ok, I'm sorry but I have to say something here because I don't want people reading this and assuming it's true.

If you are ANY good whatsoever and live near a fashion or beauty market of any size you can work with agency models for free with very few, specific exceptions.  If you aren't good enough yet, then it doesn't really matter what you have in your book because if you aren't up to the level of shooting the agencies want to see, the fact that your models are all 5'2" and buck toothed won't make a bit of difference.

If you DON'T live near a fashion or beauty market, then use what money you have to get near one if you think you have any shot of turning pro and are serious about it.

Now, that being said, I'm all for paying models in the right situation, but if you're serious about turning pro, then you have to have a certain business sense about you...and that's in almost every case contrary to making ANY case for paying a model.

Andy

The agency route is the best way to get good models but to get the kind of
book you will need to get agencies to work with you or show on-line it
may mean paying.  Not in all cases as any advice it isn't one size fits all.
Look around this site at many of the talented photographers ,I often see good
ideals with good lighting and well a model that looks like a Pitt Bull.  Its like
in most things to get exactly what you want you may need to pay.  I used
the problem of a nice location and a MUA with TFP models who may or may not
show up.  I'm not suggesting that photographers always pay that will be too
expensive but that when you hear from or see a great model then don't be afraid
to spend some $$$

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Paying means you get what you want.  No compromises.

Not always.
I've seen models demanding too much and putting too many conditions and some even wanting to control the shoot.

You have to be carefull who you HIRE.

A. H A M I L T O N wrote:
Still not correct, but I find I lack the desire to argue on the Internet anymore.

If your work is technically and artistically proficient and up to standards, those who judge photographs on a daily basis can look past subject limitations...especially if they're in a position where supplying subject is a fundamental aspect of their job.

Andy

Not correct for your objectives but who are to say what is right for someone else?