Photographer
Star
Posts: 17966
Los Angeles, California, US
If you have applied for a shoot, gotten the information for the shoot, and confirmed your date and time a week ago please don't think "well if I don't respond to the photographers emails after that they will know I am not coming." That is the worst type of flaking. You are putting not only the photographer but the other models, the MUA and hairstylist out. You are also letting the photog promise one thing and deliver another. So now I am finally doing it. You are on notice. You confirm and then stop responding to emails and not show up you are being put on a very very public flake list. I will link to it from my MM profile. So hopefully, you will show up, Star
Photographer
C R Photography
Posts: 3594
Pleasanton, California, US
Star wrote: If you have applied for a shoot, gotten the information for the shoot, and confirmed your date and time a week ago please don't think "well if I don't respond to the photographers emails after that they will know I am not coming." That is the worst type of flaking. You are putting not only the photographer but the other models, the MUA and hairstylist out. You are also letting the photog promise one thing and deliver another. So now I am finally doing it. You are on notice. You confirm and then stop responding to emails and not show up you are being put on a very very public flake list. I will link to it from my MM profile. So hopefully, you will show up, Star Woah! Nothing screams "Sue Me" louder than a threat of premeditated slander.
Photographer
photosbydmp
Posts: 3808
Shepparton-Mooroopna, Victoria, Australia
Star wrote: If you have applied for a shoot, gotten the information for the shoot, and confirmed your date and time a week ago please don't think "well if I don't respond to the photographers emails after that they will know I am not coming." That is the worst type of flaking. You are putting not only the photographer but the other models, the MUA and hairstylist out. You are also letting the photog promise one thing and deliver another. So now I am finally doing it. You are on notice. You confirm and then stop responding to emails and not show up you are being put on a very very public flake list. I will link to it from my MM profile. So hopefully, you will show up, Star well said, to not respond is not a cancellation,its just rude and ignorant.
Photographer
photosbydmp
Posts: 3808
Shepparton-Mooroopna, Victoria, Australia
Star wrote: If you have applied for a shoot, gotten the information for the shoot, and confirmed your date and time a week ago please don't think "well if I don't respond to the photographers emails after that they will know I am not coming." That is the worst type of flaking. You are putting not only the photographer but the other models, the MUA and hairstylist out. You are also letting the photog promise one thing and deliver another. So now I am finally doing it. You are on notice. You confirm and then stop responding to emails and not show up you are being put on a very very public flake list. I will link to it from my MM profile. So hopefully, you will show up, Star well said, to not respond is not a cancellation,its just rude and ignorant.
Model
Just AJ
Posts: 3478
Round Rock, Texas, US
A N O T H E R post on flaky models??????? In the words of the Arby's oven mitt: "Will it ever end???????????"
Photographer
Jay Bowman
Posts: 6511
Los Angeles, California, US
Star wrote: If you have applied for a shoot, gotten the information for the shoot, and confirmed your date and time a week ago please don't think "well if I don't respond to the photographers emails after that they will know I am not coming." That is the worst type of flaking. You are putting not only the photographer but the other models, the MUA and hairstylist out. You are also letting the photog promise one thing and deliver another... This is so very, very veryveryveryveryveryveryvery true. Did I mention that this is so true?
Photographer
Star
Posts: 17966
Los Angeles, California, US
Nobody has flaked yet. This is talking about presumed flaking. I feel if you want to sue me than you are welcome to it. Come take my cat and my broken car. I wish you good luck with them. Slander is only a lie. In CA I could very well be sued for writing the truth BUT if your contractor didn't show up for a contracted job you could contact the BBB. Model are way too used to being able to do what they want. And guess what, I have no money. You can't bleed a stone. From now on models are getting the above notice when we start talking about shooting. I will be saving all messages between us. If they choose not to show up than it is obvious that they understand the consequences. The site will just be a model, her picture, and her reason for not coming. If no reason given or just stop in communication than that will be listed. Everytime I set up a shoot and people don't show up it hurts my reputation. It also hurts my pocketbook, sets aren't free. I don't have time for this anymore. So yes another thread on flakey models and angry photographers. Oh well, it sucks to be you. Or me. Or the models who screw me over. Star
Photographer
phcorcoran
Posts: 648
Lawrence, Indiana, US
On my website it says: Cancellation Policy Last-minute cancellations and "no shows" by models are a serious problem. For that reason, I ask that models reconfirm their photo shoots with me by telephone the day beforehand. Regretfully I must cancel photo shoots if I have not received telephone reconfirmation from all models by 8 PM the prior evening. I cannot ask the studio staff to be there unless I am assured that the models will show up. Nobody is paid in the event of a cancellation, regardless of cause.
Photographer
Brian Diaz
Posts: 65617
Danbury, Connecticut, US
C R Photography wrote:
Woah! Nothing screams "Sue Me" louder than a threat of premeditated slander. The truth is an absolute defense against slander/libel.
Photographer
ChristopherRoss
Posts: 1559
Eškašem, Badakhshan, Afghanistan
Star wrote: That is the worst type of flaking. Ok, I know it's cruel but dont you think you're overreacting here? I mean honestly, you're talking about models not accountants here, when I used to deal with them I would just assume they'd flake out. Luckily I never had to book more than two for a shoot but I think that if I did, I would also keep a spare or two on speed dial. c.
Model
Just AJ
Posts: 3478
Round Rock, Texas, US
C R Photography wrote: Woah! Nothing screams "Sue Me" louder than a threat of premeditated slander. Brian Diaz wrote: The truth is an absolute defense against slander/libel.
Photographer
ms-photo
Posts: 538
Portland, Oregon, US
C R Photography wrote: Woah! Nothing screams "Sue Me" louder than a threat of premeditated slander. Well technically it's Libel since it's written and not spoken. They always say, truth is is an absolute protection against libel. You might want to learn a little bit about the law before giving out free legal advice. Anyway if a model is too flaky to show up for a shoot, I wouldn't be too worried about her finding the money to hire someone to file a nuisance lawsuit on her behalf. When some idiot threatens to sue you, quickest way to shut them down is to say "great, send me your lawyer's contact information so I can have my lawyer start working on it" and you will never hear from them again. Works every time.
Photographer
Star
Posts: 17966
Los Angeles, California, US
thisismyurl wrote: Ok, I know it's cruel but dont you think you're overreacting here? I mean honestly, you're talking about models not accountants here, when I used to deal with them I would just assume they'd flake out. Luckily I never had to book more than two for a shoot but I think that if I did, I would also keep a spare or two on speed dial. c. The MUA'S who test with me are normally paid and are doing me a favor to shoot with me for no money or just money for gas. They are however getting a form of compensation, the images from the shoot. Tomorrow I am doing a kabuki shoot. I started talking with the models two weeks ago. The make-up artist really wants these shots in her book. If only one out of three girls shows up than I am not providing the payment I promised. And while it is only like $60 the money I spent on shoot specific props and the full day of time it took to find the props are also wasted if only one model shows up. Finally, all I ask is that you stop reading the MM messages asking if you are ok and coming, and not responding. So now I am double booking, but what do I do if 4 or 5 girls show up? The MUA cannot handle that many and shouldn't have to. She will be angry at me for double booking. And rightly so. All of this is being caused by the model. They have way too much control right now, I just want a little of it back, Star
Photographer
Pete Flanagan
Posts: 310
Chicago, Illinois, US
C R Photography wrote:
Woah! Nothing screams "Sue Me" louder than a threat of premeditated slander. There is nothing slanderous about putting someone on such a list, as long as there are no factual lies associated with it.
Photographer
Dawnie Lee Photography
Posts: 54
Seattle, Washington, US
Hey! I was going to make a similiar list and went on a local message board and got slammed. They stated that I will get lawsuits and a bad reputation as a photographer. They said models wouldn't want to shoot with me. I don't understand how to stop this. The only response I get are that photographers are flaky too. Out of my 100 shoots, only ONE didn't go through on my part and it's b/c I got mugged (sliced with a knife) and miscounted my emails sent out canceling the shoot. I offered to pay for time (even though it was TFP) but the mother bashed me. So I don't know if it's karma for the ONE time that happened but I am sure some of the older photographers miss the days that models paid us and not take advantage of our talent.
Photographer
Pete Flanagan
Posts: 310
Chicago, Illinois, US
Dawnie wrote: Hey! I was going to make a similiar list and went on a local message board and got slammed. They stated that I will get lawsuits and a bad reputation as a photographer. They said models wouldn't want to shoot with me. I don't understand how to stop this. The only response I get are that photographers are flaky too. Out of my 100 shoots, only ONE didn't go through on my part and it's b/c I got mugged (sliced with a knife) and miscounted my emails sent out canceling the shoot. I offered to pay for time (even though it was TFP) but the mother bashed me. So I don't know if it's karma for the ONE time that happened but I am sure some of the older photographers miss the days that models paid us and not take advantage of our talent. 30 years ago when I first started shooting "models," they didn't show up most of the time. Nothing has changed.
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 21528
Chicago, Illinois, US
Star wrote:
The MUA'S who test with me are normally paid and are doing me a favor to shoot with me for no money or just money for gas. They are however getting a form of compensation, the images from the shoot. Tomorrow I am doing a kabuki shoot. I started talking with the models two weeks ago. The make-up artist really wants these shots in her book. If only one out of three girls shows up than I am not providing the payment I promised. And while it is only like $60 the money I spent on shoot specific props and the full day of time it took to find the props are also wasted if only one model shows up. Finally, all I ask is that you stop reading the MM messages asking if you are ok and coming, and not responding. So now I am double booking, but what do I do if 4 or 5 girls show up? The MUA cannot handle that many and shouldn't have to. She will be angry at me for double booking. And rightly so. All of this is being caused by the model. They have way too much control right now, I just want a little of it back, Star Here you have someone who has not only spent time but is also out money. The only way for people to treated as profesionals is to demand it. If you will have the expense of renting props and paying a MUA then its time for the models to pay a deposit of some sort. Star you have the talent and the drive but sometimes we can be too nice. You shouldn't have to double book. You shouldn't have to call models or hope they show up. This isn't, a no big deal if ya show or not shoot. This is, waste not only my time but you've wasted money and someone elses time. So next shoot. If you do any sort of audition have those 'intrested' models fork over some refundable $$$ make it a small amount. They can't make it to you, well paypal is a option or even a mailed money order but no shoots untill they do. Yes it may limit the models you work with but those that send it in are almost a lock for showing up. Explain if you care too about why you do it but start setting guidelines. Models do all the time and they expect YOU to follow them.
Photographer
phcorcoran
Posts: 648
Lawrence, Indiana, US
Dawnie wrote: Hey! I was going to make a similiar list and went on a local message board and got slammed. They stated that I will get lawsuits and a bad reputation as a photographer. They said models wouldn't want to shoot with me. The website www.no-shows.com was a good resource, but it only took one bad person to ruin it.
Photographer
BCI Photo
Posts: 938
Indianapolis, Indiana, US
Matt Schneider wrote:
Well technically it's Libel since it's written and not spoken. They always say, truth is is an absolute protection against libel. You might want to learn a little bit about the law before giving out free legal advice. Anyway if a model is too flaky to show up for a shoot, I wouldn't be too worried about her finding the money to hire someone to file a nuisance lawsuit on her behalf. When some idiot threatens to sue you, quickest way to shut them down is to say "great, send me your lawyer's contact information so I can have my lawyer start working on it" and you will never hear from them again. Works every time. Nail + Hammer = See quoted post.
Photographer
Star
Posts: 17966
Los Angeles, California, US
Just lost a model for tomorrow, Jumper, because he booked paid work. So on the website it would look like this Model: Jumper Notice: Email, 24 hour Reason Given: Booked paying work
Photographer
JM Dean
Posts: 8931
Cary, North Carolina, US
No show No call. No worse than that.
Photographer
Tog
Posts: 55204
Birmingham, Alabama, US
Can't argue, dropped threads get SOOOO under my skin.. Odd way of showing how much.. Had a model cancel on me just yesterday.. I was SO happy she actually let me know I almost sent her a thank you.. On the other hand this place has got my perspective jaded.. She canceled, gave a reason.. I told her I was sorry and hoped all was well.. Then wrote back, saying, "on the other hand if you just changed your mind and were looking for a polite way.... I'd rather you told me straight out...." Then I hoped all was well again.. Because if the reason given was real I'd just exposed myself as a dickhead.. C'est La Vie.. (I think that's German for, "I like pie!")
Model
NAT
Posts: 312
Huntington, Virginia, US
Its a never ending battle indeed
Model
Kemara
Posts: 519
Tavares, Florida, US
Star wrote: If you have applied for a shoot, gotten the information for the shoot, and confirmed your date and time a week ago please don't think "well if I don't respond to the photographers emails after that they will know I am not coming." That is the worst type of flaking. You are putting not only the photographer but the other models, the MUA and hairstylist out. You are also letting the photog promise one thing and deliver another. So now I am finally doing it. You are on notice. You confirm and then stop responding to emails and not show up you are being put on a very very public flake list. I will link to it from my MM profile. So hopefully, you will show up, Star I just had this happen... a shoot was confirmed, and for 5 days b4 the shoot I didn't hear from the photographer... I had the whole day open for this shoot... then just nothing... Needless to say I STILL haven't heard from him
Photographer
DaG
Posts: 2784
Atlanta, Georgia, US
Why don't you guys take a deposit? Set up a paypal account, require a deposit at least 72 hours before the shoot (even for TFP shoots). If they don't pay their deposit before 72 hours you know 3 days in advance the shoot isn't happening. If they pay the deposit and don't show up then you've just made money for doing nothing. Danny
Model
Randee
Posts: 194
West Branch, Michigan, US
Kemara wrote: I just had this happen... a shoot was confirmed, and for 5 days b4 the shoot I didn't hear from the photographer... I had the whole day open for this shoot... then just nothing... Needless to say I STILL haven't heard from him As did I - I've even shot with this Photographer before!! I sent him my email, cell phone and even told hime to call as late as he had to, but still nothing! And, just like Kemara, still haven't heard anything....and we are supposed to shoot 13 days ago!!! IT IS NOT just models!!!
Photographer
C R Photography
Posts: 3594
Pleasanton, California, US
Matt Schneider wrote: You might want to learn a little bit about the law before giving out free legal advice. What legal advise? I was not quoting any law or any statute or responding to any type of direct questions. I merely stated that slander would be the primary cause of an action placed against her.
Matt Schneider wrote: When some idiot threatens to sue you, quickest way to shut them down is to say "great, send me your lawyer's contact information so I can have my lawyer start working on it" and you will never hear from them again. Works every time. Are you a lawyer? Why are you telling someone to state that they have a lawyer, when they may not? What if the bluff is blown and you get served in a few weeks? Don't tell me about legal advise when I'm clearly not giving it! And please, stop giving out legal advise yourself!
Matt Schneider wrote: Well technically it's Libel since it's written and not spoken. They always say, truth is is an absolute protection against libel. The Harvard Law periodical defines the following: Slander - Spoken defamation which tends to injure a person's reputation. (See libel.) Libel - Published defamation which tends to injure a person's reputation. Technically you may be right, however who is they and where are you getting your information from?
Photographer
American Glamour
Posts: 38813
Detroit, Michigan, US
C R Photography wrote: Nothing screams "Sue Me" louder than a threat of premeditated slander. Brian Diaz wrote: The truth is an absolute defense against slander/libel. I am not a lawyer and I have never played one on TV, so take this with a grain of salt. Brian is right, truth is an absolute defense against slander and libel. It is not, however, a total insulator against liability. As an example, in most states there is some variation of the tort: "Intentional Interferrence with Prospective Economic Advantage." It basically means that you are doing something to deliberately prevent someone from earning income they might otherwise have been able to receive. That is one of the motivating factors that stops a lot of companies from giving negative references when people check up on past employees. Things like the list are forms of "Self-Help." Under the law if you are injured, you should be relying upon the courts to make you whole, rather than using a "big stick" to make things right. As an example, if you had a model who didn't show because she was ill and you listed her on the "no show" list, it might be factual, yet your purpose would be to discourage others from working with her. If she actually suffered a loss as a result of your list, it might be actionable on her part. You stand the risk of causing disproportionate injury to the model which is greatly in excess of the damage you incurred. It might also be construed as malice since a court might find that your underlying purpose was to punish the model. I am not suggesting that you would or would not get sued. I am not a lawyer. What I am saying is that you might be be safe from an action for libel, that doesn't mean a clever lawyer might not find some other tort and litigate. Just a little food for thought. I can think of other causes of action as well.
Model
Jumper
Posts: 211
Crestline, California, US
Photographer
Star
Posts: 17966
Los Angeles, California, US
Jumper wrote: Hey, at least I responded in ample time. Again, I apologize, hopefully you understand, when payed work comes along, thats a priority, not TFP. ample time is not an email 24hours in advance
Photographer
Tim Baker-fotoPerfecta
Posts: 9877
Portland, Oregon, US
C R Photography wrote:
Woah! Nothing screams "Sue Me" louder than a threat of premeditated slander. I know of few models who would have the means to sue; I know of no attorneys who would take a case like this, anyway. You can't slander or libel someone by telling the truth, whether that is told in private or posted publically. That said, I would hope you give the model a chance to respond to your posts and then post her/his comments along with yours. Cheers, /tim
Photographer
Tim Baker-fotoPerfecta
Posts: 9877
Portland, Oregon, US
Alan from Aavian Prod wrote:
C R Photography wrote: Nothing screams "Sue Me" louder than a threat of premeditated slander. I am not a lawyer and I have never played one on TV, so take this with a grain of salt. Brian is right, truth is an absolute defense against slander and libel. It is not, however, a total insulator against liability. As an example, in most states there is some variation of the tort: "Intentional Interferrence with Prospective Economic Advantage." It basically means that you are doing something to deliberately prevent someone from earning income they might otherwise have been able to receive. That is one of the motivating factors that stops a lot of companies from giving negative references when people check up on past employees. Things like the list are forms of "Self-Help." Under the law if you are injured, you should be relying upon the courts to make you whole, rather than using a "big stick" to make things right. As an example, if you had a model who didn't show because she was ill and you listed her on the "no show" list, it might be factual, yet your purpose would be to discourage others from working with her. If she actually suffered a loss as a result of your list, it might be actionable on her part. You stand the risk of causing disproportionate injury to the model which is greatly in excess of the damage you incurred. It might also be construed as malice since a court might find that your underlying purpose was to punish the model. I am not suggesting that you would or would not get sued. I am not a lawyer. What I am saying is that you might be be safe from an action for libel, that doesn't mean a clever lawyer might not find some other tort and litigate. Just a little food for thought. I can think of other causes of action as well. You could always list the model as "No Show - Reason: Sick" ... then let the other photographers beware or make up their own mind. This is the truth and is not a basis for slander or libel. /tim
Model
Jumper
Posts: 211
Crestline, California, US
Photographer
Doug Harvey
Posts: 1055
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Jayne Jones wrote: A N O T H E R post on flaky models??????? In the words of the Arby's oven mitt: "Will it ever end???????????"
LOL...Well said!
Photographer
Mark Hayes
Posts: 134
Cotacachi, Imbabura, Ecuador
Jumper wrote: Thats Show Business Or in this case, No-Show Business. :-)
Photographer
Wayne Collins Photos
Posts: 53
Largo, Florida, US
yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea,yea, Thank God,It's about time models got a price to pay for waisting our time efforts.and money. Please who ever reads this pass it along to every photographer here and on OMP and on as many sites as you can. I am going to post this in my studio so models can tell other models that this list exists.
Model
Jumper
Posts: 211
Crestline, California, US
Photographer
Natalie Photography
Posts: 161
Sydney, Nova Scotia, Canada
WG Rowland wrote: C'est La Vie.. (I think that's German for, "I like pie!") No, but I have noticed that this place really likes to talk about flaking models, flaking photographer, GWC and pie.... now back to the pie......
Photographer
Star
Posts: 17966
Los Angeles, California, US
Jumper wrote: Uhhhhh, Hello, how I make my living is by looking for paid work, duh? "I get very angry because this means that the model not only has confirmed a shoot with me 2 weeks in advance, but that the entire time he was still searching for "paid" work." Great, so you will chip in for the money I spent on the shoot you didn't show up to? Since you got that paid gig and all. I mean it is ok for me to spend money on something that you have confirmed to be at but I should just understand that you only intended to come if nothing better came along. Well, now I understand and feel all better. If only you had contacted me first, oh wait here is a transcript of our MM communications (note after the one I went to my main email) 1.Star, Hey there, hope you are doing great! I love all of your new work! I don't know if you have completed your Asylum project, but I am sending you this message to express my interest. I'd welcome the chance to work with you again. Ciao, Chris Bonomo Star 05/04/06 7:47 PM 2. (Message read) I am writing you cause we either tagged or messaged each other in the past. I am starting to set up my new TFCD shoots. My available dates are May 17th, 18th, 24th, 25th, 31st. I am messaging several people in an effort to get the ball rolling. My shoots usually last between 4-6 hours, I know that seems like a long time. I just like to do several set-ups. I am willing to look for an MUA but if you know or trust one that would be great. I will be scouting locations in Pasadena next week. Most of the time I do schedule two models per day, I enjoy the energy of several people working together :-) If any of these days sound cool to you just let me know and we can talk details, Star 3. Jumper 05/05/06 12:52 AM Star, May 17th or 18th works for me. I've worked with you in the past at your Pomona studio. I'm a ballet dancer. Let me know what you plan on what I should be scrounging for wardrobe wise. Lookin forward to it, Ciao, Chris 4. 05/08/06 12:47 AM (Message read) Sounds great will have more information on Monday Star 5. 05/09/06 1:03 AM (Message read) Hey guys, here is what I have so far, does anyone have any questions, or want to switchdays? Star (edit, lots of information follows this) 6. 05/11/06 10:06 PM Star, Yes, I am a go. I have some questions though on what your concept idea is for the shoot and what you need me to bring wardrobe wise. Any idea of what time you are planning? Thanks. Ciao, Chris 7.05/12/06 12:30 AM (Message read) I should have more information tomorrow, Star 8. 05/13/06 1:02 AM (Message read) The Deconstructionalist Shoot (lots of information followed by) I will send out a short note on Monday to make sure we are all still good, Star 9. 05/13/06 1:52 AM Star, My email is: xxxxxxxx I'll see what I can find that's apocalyptic punk. Let me know if you can think of some specific wardrobe items for a male (I got boots, lol) Than the day before the shoot the cancellation email, so no Chris why on earth would you messing around with MY WORK make me upset.... I spend money, I make promises based on what you commit to. The other models were expecting a male model. I turned down other people for the shoot cause you had confirmed. Star
Model
Wynd Mulysa
Posts: 8619
Berkeley, California, US
You told him! :0(. Sorry about the whole situation.
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