Star wrote:
If you have applied for a shoot, gotten the information for the shoot, and confirmed your date and time a week ago please don't think "well if I don't respond to the photographers emails after that they will know I am not coming."

That is the worst type of flaking. You are putting not only the photographer but the other models, the MUA and hairstylist out. You are also letting the photog promise one thing and deliver another.

So now I am finally doing it. You are on notice. You confirm and then stop responding to emails and not show up you are being put on a very very public flake list. I will link to it from my MM profile.

So hopefully, you will show up,

Star

Woah!

Nothing screams "Sue Me" louder than a threat of premeditated slander.

Star wrote:
If you have applied for a shoot, gotten the information for the shoot, and confirmed your date and time a week ago please don't think "well if I don't respond to the photographers emails after that they will know I am not coming."

That is the worst type of flaking. You are putting not only the photographer but the other models, the MUA and hairstylist out. You are also letting the photog promise one thing and deliver another.

So now I am finally doing it. You are on notice. You confirm and then stop responding to emails and not show up you are being put on a very very public flake list. I will link to it from my MM profile.

So hopefully, you will show up,

Star

well said, to not respond is not a cancellation,its just rude and ignorant.

Star wrote:
If you have applied for a shoot, gotten the information for the shoot, and confirmed your date and time a week ago please don't think "well if I don't respond to the photographers emails after that they will know I am not coming."

That is the worst type of flaking. You are putting not only the photographer but the other models, the MUA and hairstylist out. You are also letting the photog promise one thing and deliver another.

So now I am finally doing it. You are on notice. You confirm and then stop responding to emails and not show up you are being put on a very very public flake list. I will link to it from my MM profile.

So hopefully, you will show up,

Star

well said, to not respond is not a cancellation,its just rude and ignorant.

Star wrote:
If you have applied for a shoot, gotten the information for the shoot, and confirmed your date and time a week ago please don't think "well if I don't respond to the photographers emails after that they will know I am not coming."

That is the worst type of flaking. You are putting not only the photographer but the other models, the MUA and hairstylist out. You are also letting the photog promise one thing and deliver another...

This is so very, very veryveryveryveryveryveryvery true.


Did I mention that this is so true?

C R Photography wrote:

Woah!

Nothing screams "Sue Me" louder than a threat of premeditated slander.

The truth is an absolute defense against slander/libel.

Star wrote:
That is the worst type of flaking.

Ok, I know it's cruel but dont you think you're overreacting here? I mean honestly, you're talking about models not accountants here, when I used to deal with them I would just assume they'd flake out.

Luckily I never had to book more than two for a shoot but I think that if I did, I would also keep a spare or two on speed dial.

c.

C R Photography wrote:
Woah!

Nothing screams "Sue Me" louder than a threat of premeditated slander.

Brian Diaz wrote:
The truth is an absolute defense against slander/libel.

C R Photography wrote:
Woah!

Nothing screams "Sue Me" louder than a threat of premeditated slander.

Well technically it's Libel since it's written and not spoken.  They always say, truth is is an absolute protection against libel.

You might want to learn a little bit about the law before giving out free legal advice.

Anyway if a model is too flaky to show up for a shoot, I wouldn't be too worried about her finding the money to hire someone to file a nuisance lawsuit on her behalf. 

When some idiot threatens to sue you, quickest way to shut them down is to say "great, send me your lawyer's contact information so I can have my lawyer start working on it" and you will never hear from them again.  Works every time.

thisismyurl wrote:
Ok, I know it's cruel but dont you think you're overreacting here? I mean honestly, you're talking about models not accountants here, when I used to deal with them I would just assume they'd flake out.

Luckily I never had to book more than two for a shoot but I think that if I did, I would also keep a spare or two on speed dial.

c.

The MUA'S who test with me are normally paid and are doing me a favor to shoot with me for no  money or just money for gas. They are however getting a form of compensation, the images from the shoot.

Tomorrow I am doing a kabuki shoot. I started talking with the models two weeks ago. The make-up artist really wants these shots in her book. If only one out of three girls shows up than I am not providing the payment I promised.

And while it is only like $60 the money I spent on shoot specific props and the full day of time it took to find the props are also wasted if only one model shows up.

Finally, all I ask is that you stop reading the MM messages asking if you are ok and coming, and not responding. So now I am double booking, but what do I do if 4 or 5 girls show up? The MUA cannot handle that many and shouldn't have to.

She will be angry at me for double booking. And rightly so. All of this is being caused by the model. They have way too much control right now, I just want a little of it back,

Star

C R Photography wrote:

Woah!

Nothing screams "Sue Me" louder than a threat of premeditated slander.

There is nothing slanderous about putting someone on such a list, as long as there are no factual lies associated with it.

Dawnie wrote:
Hey! I was going to make a similiar list and went on a local message board and got slammed. They stated that I will get lawsuits and a bad reputation as a photographer. They said models wouldn't want to shoot with me.

I don't understand how to stop this. The only response I get are that photographers are flaky too. Out of my 100 shoots, only ONE didn't go through on my part and it's b/c I got mugged (sliced with a knife)  and miscounted my emails sent out canceling the shoot. I offered to pay for time (even though it was TFP) but the mother bashed me.

So I don't know if it's karma for the ONE time that happened but I am sure some of the older photographers miss the days that models paid us and not take advantage of our talent.

30 years ago when I first started shooting "models," they didn't show up most of the time.  Nothing has changed.

Star wrote:

The MUA'S who test with me are normally paid and are doing me a favor to shoot with me for no  money or just money for gas. They are however getting a form of compensation, the images from the shoot.

Tomorrow I am doing a kabuki shoot. I started talking with the models two weeks ago. The make-up artist really wants these shots in her book. If only one out of three girls shows up than I am not providing the payment I promised.

And while it is only like $60 the money I spent on shoot specific props and the full day of time it took to find the props are also wasted if only one model shows up.

Finally, all I ask is that you stop reading the MM messages asking if you are ok and coming, and not responding. So now I am double booking, but what do I do if 4 or 5 girls show up? The MUA cannot handle that many and shouldn't have to.

She will be angry at me for double booking. And rightly so. All of this is being caused by the model. They have way too much control right now, I just want a little of it back,

Star

Here you have someone who has not only spent
time but is also out money.  The only way for people to treated as profesionals
is to demand it.  If you will have the expense of renting props and paying a
MUA then its time for the models to pay a deposit of some sort.  Star you have
the talent and the drive but sometimes we can be too nice.  You shouldn't have to double book.  You shouldn't have to call models or hope they show up.  This
isn't, a no big deal if ya show or not shoot.  This is, waste not only my time but
you've wasted money and someone elses time.  So next shoot.  If you do any
sort of audition have those 'intrested' models fork over some refundable $$$
make it a small amount.  They can't make it to you, well paypal is a option or
even a mailed money order but no shoots untill they do.  Yes it may limit the
models you work with but those that send it in are almost a lock for showing up.
Explain if you care too about why you  do it but start setting guidelines.
Models do all the time and they expect YOU to follow them.

Dawnie wrote:
Hey! I was going to make a similiar list and went on a local message board and got slammed. They stated that I will get lawsuits and a bad reputation as a photographer. They said models wouldn't want to shoot with me.

The website www.no-shows.com was a good resource, but it only took one bad person to ruin it.

Matt Schneider wrote:

Well technically it's Libel since it's written and not spoken.  They always say, truth is is an absolute protection against libel.

You might want to learn a little bit about the law before giving out free legal advice.

Anyway if a model is too flaky to show up for a shoot, I wouldn't be too worried about her finding the money to hire someone to file a nuisance lawsuit on her behalf. 

When some idiot threatens to sue you, quickest way to shut them down is to say "great, send me your lawyer's contact information so I can have my lawyer start working on it" and you will never hear from them again.  Works every time.

Nail + Hammer = See quoted post.

Star wrote:
If you have applied for a shoot, gotten the information for the shoot, and confirmed your date and time a week ago please don't think "well if I don't respond to the photographers emails after that they will know I am not coming."

That is the worst type of flaking. You are putting not only the photographer but the other models, the MUA and hairstylist out. You are also letting the photog promise one thing and deliver another.

So now I am finally doing it. You are on notice. You confirm and then stop responding to emails and not show up you are being put on a very very public flake list. I will link to it from my MM profile.

So hopefully, you will show up,

Star

I just had this happen... a shoot was confirmed, and for 5 days b4 the shoot I didn't hear from the photographer... I had the whole day open for this shoot... then just nothing... Needless to say I STILL haven't heard from him

Kemara wrote:
I just had this happen... a shoot was confirmed, and for 5 days b4 the shoot I didn't hear from the photographer... I had the whole day open for this shoot... then just nothing... Needless to say I STILL haven't heard from him

As did I - I've even shot with this Photographer before!!  I sent him my email, cell phone and even told hime to call as late as he had to, but still nothing!  And, just like Kemara, still haven't heard anything....and we are supposed to shoot 13 days ago!!!

IT IS NOT just models!!!

Matt Schneider wrote:
You might want to learn a little bit about the law before giving out free legal advice.

What legal advise?

I was not quoting any law or any statute or responding to any type of direct questions.

I merely stated that slander would be the primary cause of an action placed against her.

Matt Schneider wrote:
When some idiot threatens to sue you, quickest way to shut them down is to say "great, send me your lawyer's contact information so I can have my lawyer start working on it" and you will never hear from them again.  Works every time.

Are you a lawyer?

Why are you telling someone to state that they have a lawyer, when they may not?

What if the bluff is blown and you get served in a few weeks?

Don't tell me about legal advise when I'm clearly not giving it!

And please, stop giving out legal advise yourself!

Matt Schneider wrote:
Well technically it's Libel since it's written and not spoken.  They always say, truth is is an absolute protection against libel.

The Harvard Law periodical defines the following:
Slander - Spoken defamation which tends to injure a person's reputation. (See libel.)
Libel - Published defamation which tends to injure a person's reputation.

Technically you may be right, however who is they and where are you getting your information from?

C R Photography wrote:
Nothing screams "Sue Me" louder than a threat of premeditated slander.

Brian Diaz wrote:
The truth is an absolute defense against slander/libel.

I am not a lawyer and I have never played one on TV, so take this with a grain of salt.  Brian is right, truth is an absolute defense against slander and libel.  It is not, however, a total insulator against liability.

As an example, in most states there is some variation of the tort:  "Intentional Interferrence with Prospective Economic Advantage."  It basically means that you are doing something to deliberately prevent someone from earning income they might otherwise have been able to receive.  That is one of the motivating factors that stops a lot of companies from giving negative references when people check up on past employees.

Things like the list are forms of "Self-Help."  Under the law if you are injured, you should be relying upon the courts to make you whole, rather than using a "big stick" to make things right.

As an example, if you had a model who didn't show because she was ill and you listed her on the "no show" list, it might be factual, yet your purpose would be to discourage others from working with her.  If she actually suffered a loss as a result of your list, it might be actionable on her part.

You stand the risk of causing disproportionate injury to the model which is greatly in excess of the damage you incurred.  It might also be construed as malice since a court might find that your underlying purpose was to punish the model.

I am not suggesting that you would or would not get sued.  I am not a lawyer.  What I am saying is that you might be be safe from an action for libel, that doesn't mean a clever lawyer might not find some other tort and litigate.

Just a little food for thought.  I can think of other causes of action as well.

Jumper wrote:
Hey, at least I responded in ample time.  Again, I apologize, hopefully you understand, when payed work comes along, thats a priority, not TFP.

ample time is not an email 24hours in advance

C R Photography wrote:

Woah!

Nothing screams "Sue Me" louder than a threat of premeditated slander.

I know of few models who would have the means to sue; I know of no attorneys who would take a case like this, anyway.  You can't slander or libel someone by telling the truth, whether that is told in private or posted publically.  That said, I would hope you give the model a chance to respond to your posts and then post her/his comments along with yours.  Cheers, /tim

Alan from Aavian Prod wrote:

C R Photography wrote:
Nothing screams "Sue Me" louder than a threat of premeditated slander.

I am not a lawyer and I have never played one on TV, so take this with a grain of salt.  Brian is right, truth is an absolute defense against slander and libel.  It is not, however, a total insulator against liability.

As an example, in most states there is some variation of the tort:  "Intentional Interferrence with Prospective Economic Advantage."  It basically means that you are doing something to deliberately prevent someone from earning income they might otherwise have been able to receive.  That is one of the motivating factors that stops a lot of companies from giving negative references when people check up on past employees.

Things like the list are forms of "Self-Help."  Under the law if you are injured, you should be relying upon the courts to make you whole, rather than using a "big stick" to make things right.

As an example, if you had a model who didn't show because she was ill and you listed her on the "no show" list, it might be factual, yet your purpose would be to discourage others from working with her.  If she actually suffered a loss as a result of your list, it might be actionable on her part.

You stand the risk of causing disproportionate injury to the model which is greatly in excess of the damage you incurred.  It might also be construed as malice since a court might find that your underlying purpose was to punish the model.

I am not suggesting that you would or would not get sued.  I am not a lawyer.  What I am saying is that you might be be safe from an action for libel, that doesn't mean a clever lawyer might not find some other tort and litigate.

Just a little food for thought.  I can think of other causes of action as well.

You could always list the model as "No Show - Reason: Sick" ... then let the other photographers beware or make up their own mind.  This is the truth and is not a basis for slander or libel. /tim

Jayne Jones wrote:
A N O T H E R post on flaky models???????

In the words of the Arby's oven mitt:
"Will it ever end???????????"

LOL...Well said!

Jumper wrote:
Thats Show Business

Or in this case, No-Show Business.   :-)

WG Rowland wrote:
C'est La Vie..  (I think that's German for, "I like pie!") 

No, but I have noticed that this place really likes to talk about flaking models, flaking photographer, GWC and pie....

now back to the pie......

Jumper wrote:
Uhhhhh, Hello, how I make my living is by looking for paid work, duh?

"I get very angry because this means that the model not only has
confirmed a shoot with me 2 weeks in advance, but that the entire
time he was still searching for "paid" work."

Great, so you will chip in for the money I spent on the shoot you didn't
show up to? Since you got that paid gig and all. I mean it is ok for me
to spend money on something that you have confirmed to be at but I
should just understand that you only intended to come if nothing
better came along. Well, now I understand and feel all better.


If only you had contacted me first, oh wait here is a transcript of our
MM communications (note after the one I went to my main email)




1.Star,

Hey there, hope you are doing great! I love all of your new work! I
don't know if you have completed your Asylum project, but I am
sending you this message to express my interest. I'd welcome the
chance to work with you again.

Ciao,
Chris Bonomo
Star
05/04/06 7:47 PM

2.
(Message read)    I am writing you cause we either tagged or messaged
each other in the past.

I am starting to set up my new TFCD shoots. My available dates are
May 17th, 18th, 24th, 25th, 31st. I am messaging several people in an
effort to get the ball rolling. My shoots usually last between 4-6 hours,
I know that seems like a long time. I just like to do several set-ups. I
am willing to look for an MUA but if you know or trust one that would
be great. I will be scouting locations in Pasadena next week. Most of
the time I do schedule two models per day, I enjoy the energy of
several people working together :-)

If any of these days sound cool to you just let me know and we can
talk details,

Star


3. Jumper
05/05/06 12:52 AM
Star,

May 17th or 18th works for me. I've worked with you in the past at
your Pomona studio. I'm a ballet dancer. Let me know what you plan
on what I should be scrounging for wardrobe wise. Lookin forward to
it,

Ciao,
Chris


4.
05/08/06 12:47 AM
(Message read)    Sounds great will have more information on
Monday

Star

5.
05/09/06 1:03 AM
(Message read)    Hey guys, here is what I have so far, does anyone
have any questions, or want to switchdays?


Star (edit, lots of information follows this)

6.
05/11/06 10:06 PM
Star,

Yes, I am a go. I have some questions though on what your concept
idea is for the shoot and what you need me to bring wardrobe wise.
Any idea of what time you are planning? Thanks.

Ciao,
Chris

7.05/12/06 12:30 AM
(Message read)    I should have more information tomorrow,


Star


8. 05/13/06 1:02 AM
(Message read)    The Deconstructionalist Shoot

(lots of information followed by) I will send out a short note on
Monday
to make sure we are all still good,

Star

9.
05/13/06 1:52 AM
Star,

My email is: xxxxxxxx I'll see what I can find that's apocalyptic punk.
Let me know if you can think of some specific wardrobe items for a
male (I got boots, lol)


Than the day before the shoot the cancellation email, so no Chris why
on earth would you messing around with MY WORK make me upset....
I spend money, I make promises based on what you commit to. The
other models were expecting a male model. I turned down other people
for the shoot cause you had confirmed.

Star