BCI Photo wrote:
Yes.

would you deal with them differently if they did come empowered to negotate in their best interest?

Thomas B wrote:
Anyone involved in a business should know the ins and outs of that business

would you deal with them differently if they did come empowered to negotate in their best interest?

Thomas B wrote:
Anyone involved in a business should know the ins and outs of that business

very true

Anona wrote:
Before signing on with an agency, will the allow you to go over the contract with a lawyer? I had an agency that allowed me to take the contract to make sure it was legit.

Anyone who doesn't want you to have your lawyer look over what you're about to sign is probably up to no good.

images by elahi wrote:
should models know business and legal stuff?
intellectual property law.
contract law.
entertainment law
copyright law
media law.

Most "working" models have those behind them that have understanding of the subjects.  For the hobbyist looking to go to the next level it becomes vitally important they take the time and effort to engage specialists or learn the areas or get burned.  For the hobbyist just wanting pretty pictures it doesn't matter.

T R Willmitch wrote:
Hi,

Should models have at least a basic understanding of the business and legal end of the profession?  Wow, that's an easy question to answer.  Yes!

Modeling is a business (even in a very real sense when doing TFCD work -- with this the equivalent of an apprenticeship as much as a time for portfolio building).  Any model who doesn't realize this is heading for trouble and will eventually be taken advantage of.

Take care,
Tom

hey tom,

would you deal with them differently if they did come empowered to negotate in their best interest?

SayCheeZ! wrote:
Even if a model doesn't have a totally technical insight to the business, they should at least get a BASIC understanding before rushing out to advertise themselves.

I'm mean, c'mon!!!   The amount of messages like "Is Impact WW a scam?" or "does anyone have information about the WISH Network?" is outrageously high.  Often, the people that write those messages claim to have some experience in modeling as well.  If those people would just spend a couple of hours learning the basics of the business, it would save themselves (and others) alot of time, grief, and financial expenses.

They should learn the technicalities of the business as much as possible, but no need to go overboard, as it's their job to pose and not their job to study law.  Even lawyers have lawyers!

would you deal with them differently if they did come empowered to negotate in their best interest?

SayCheeZ! wrote:
Even if a model doesn't have a totally technical insight to the business, they should at least get a BASIC understanding before rushing out to advertise themselves.

I'm mean, c'mon!!!   The amount of messages like "Is Impact WW a scam?" or "does anyone have information about the WISH Network?" is outrageously high.  Often, the people that write those messages claim to have some experience in modeling as well.  If those people would just spend a couple of hours learning the basics of the business, it would save themselves (and others) alot of time, grief, and financial expenses.

They should learn the technicalities of the business as much as possible, but no need to go overboard, as it's their job to pose and not their job to study law.  Even lawyers have lawyers!

would you deal with them differently if they did come empowered to negotate in their best interest?

bang bang photo wrote:
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I have to say, I've been told some amazingly dumb things by models with utter confidence -- unfortunately, completely wrong. This kind of ignorance hurts everybody.

At the same time, I've had models educate me, helping me do things a new way, or understand a nuance of law better. I really appreciate it when that happens.

We all need to be educated. But the law regarding photography is incredibly complicated, and becomes more so because large portions of it vary state by state -- so that what is true in say, California, is NOT true in NY.

Overall though, knowledge is power, and all of us need to understand the legal ins and outs of the business we are in.

so are you justifying the need for agents and/or managers?

images by elahi wrote:
intellectual property law.
contract law.
entertainment law
copyright law
media law.

what do you think?

To the extent that they 1. don't violate any of them 2. don't let other people take unfair advantage of them.

images by elahi wrote:
so are you justifying the need for agents and/or managers?

Part of being business-savvy is to understand what is needed, when. If you are bringing in a lawyer or agent or manager to OK the release for a TFP shoot, for example, it's overkill. On the other hand, if you are negotiating with Victoria's Secret for a two-year contract, you're an idiot if you do it without representation. Between those two extremes, it can come down either way, right?

That's one thing why I hate it when people lay down absolute rules, like "you should never sign anything without getting a lawyer to look at it first." Hey, every time you buy an airplane ticket, or enter a venue, or whatever, you are agreeing to a long list of legalities. You don't have a lawyer look at THOSE, do you!

All any of us can do, whether models or not, is be as smart as we can be, and know when to seek additional advice as necessary. Common sense is a beautiful thing.

images by elahi wrote:
would you deal with them differently if they did come empowered to negotate in their best interest?

Personally speaking, I'm the type of guy that's pretty honest, and if a person is getting involved in any type of business dealing (with me or anyone else)... especially a contractual one... I usually tell them about the consequences of their actions so they're fully informed and can make a proper decision.

On the other hand, I LOVE dealing with people that already know the technical / legal end of the field they're in... it makes it alot easier for me, and I feel more at ease working with them.  I'm probably one of the few people that feel this way, I'd think that most people would have a completely opposite view, thinking that a person that is knowledgable and prepared would be more intimidating than easy to work with.

I also like it when a model knows about photography... it's like they have a 6th sense... they'll pose in a certain way or a certain location without having to have it explained.

bang bang photo wrote:
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I have to say, I've been told some amazingly dumb things by models with utter confidence -- unfortunately, completely wrong. This kind of ignorance hurts everybody.

At the same time, I've had models educate me, helping me do things a new way, or understand a nuance of law better. I really appreciate it when that happens.

We all need to be educated. But the law regarding photography is incredibly complicated, and becomes more so because large portions of it vary state by state -- so that what is true in say, California, is NOT necessarily true in NY.

Overall though, knowledge is power, and all of us need to understand the legal ins and outs of the business we are in.

Great point.  I think the best thing to do is take any contract you are being asked to sign to a lawyer who has a working knowlege of the field.

Mark Anderson wrote:
ummm...  is this a trick question?

no..just trying to create a forum where folks are sharing info and other folks are being empowreed and educated...that's all...i see so many models or aspiring models asking questions that I think they should know the answers to..........

Thomas B wrote:
Anyone involved in a business should know the ins and outs of that business

Absolutely!

images by elahi wrote:

would you deal with them differently if they did come empowered to negotate in their best interest?

I probably wouldn't deal with them any differently ... except for the fact that, if they were equipped to negotiate on their own behalf, I wouldn't have to explain as much of the paperwork in as much detail as I find myself doing on occasion.

I try to operate by some pretty simple rules.
1.) We live and work in an envoronment where a lot of success and failure is dictated by reputation. If one does things that create a bad reputation, it gets much harder for one to work in any area of this business. A bad reputation for either a photographer or a model only impedes income.
2.) The only GOOD deal is a deal in which all parties benefit. I will go to great lengths to explain anything and every thing in my model release (which also includes what the model can expect from me - prints, CD-ROM, compensation, expenses ... and anything else we agree on). I find getting everyone's expectations on paper saves a lot of surprises later.
3.) I extend the models with whom I work the courtesy of reviewing everything we shoot together and, if there are images he/she feels don't represent him/her well, we destroy the source material together (negatives or image files - I shoot all digital these days so negatives have long ago ceased to be an issue). There are places on my model release where the model initials indicating his/her satisfaction that we've done that.

What I do may not be practical for everyone ... but it's the way I operate.

images by elahi wrote:

would you deal with them differently if they did come empowered to negotate in their best interest?

No....I have shot with models who would make excellent attorneys (Ryan....the girl in my green shot is a perfect example) and I have shot with models who would of signed a deal with the devil (I like to wear red....does that count) if I asked them to and all shoots were the same. that is me though.....I treat everyone the same and have no hidden agenda. But there are people in this business looking to take advantage of any weakling so I recommend that everyone in this business learn everything you can. It's always smart to protect yourself. but to get to your question again, no I would not treat a model different if they came to a shoot with knowledge of the business.

images by elahi wrote:
intellectual property law.
contract law.
entertainment law
copyright law
media law.

what do you think?

how many of them know anything about the business and legal stuff before they pose in front of the camera?

and how many who feel they dont a legit agent or manager, actually know WHY legit representation and/or consultation is necessary?

Knowledge is power whether it is necessary or not.

Brian Diaz wrote:
But if models know business and legal stuff, how will we ever be able to take advantage of them?

ah Brian Ijust admire and respect your candid honesty..your naked truths LOL

images by elahi wrote:
should models know business and legal stuff?

intellectual property law.
contract law.
entertainment law
copyright law
media law.

what do you think?

how many of them know anything about the business and legal stuff before they pose in front of the camera?

This applies equally to photographers.  As we see on these forums, all too many of them have very incomplete, or completely wrong, understanding of these kinds of issues.  A lot of the crap they say that takes advantage of models, they actually believe to be true!

images by elahi wrote:
and how many who feel they dont a legit agent or manager, actually know WHY legit representation and/or consultation is necessary? (sic)

It's not necessary in many cases, but it's desirable.  Even so, that doesn't determine anything, since the number of competent, honest, knowledgeable agents or managers is quite limited, and the number of potential models very large.  They can't all get good representation, however much they may see a need for it.

Brian Diaz wrote:
But if models know business and legal stuff, how will we ever be able to take advantage of them?

roofies.

DeathbyNew-Wave wrote:
Yes,they should. They also need to know the basics of photography.

brilliant point!

Chili wrote:
i would say

oooohhhhh NOOO!!!!!

follow: (in a lewis black tone)

IF the models would become smart, then they would be too smart to model, pretty soon they'd quit modeling and start legal firms like madam sarah & pyschosis, kevlar, theda, and lapis PC, and set up plush offices on wall street, with 800 numbers and yellow pages and subway ads, (and they'll figure they're smart enough to take their own damn pix for the ads too, and save a few bucks)

next thing ya know, everyone is going to the 'former models legal firms', guys wanting a divorce, guys sueing people in in accidents, guys who are being auditted by the IRS, all of them, they'll all want a former model to represent them instead of some jewish guy from harvard, or yale.

then what happens?

i'll tell ya, all of those jewish attorneys aint working, aint making money, they're all not going to start selling diamonds on canal street, (ever wonder why its called jewelry?) they're gonna think of another way to fuck us all over, and whats the best way to fuck the most people over?

fucking damn right!

politics

all of those g'damn out of work jewish attornies are gonna start running for public offices, senators, congressman, governors, mayors, sheriffs, gonna start getting elected, gonna start raising fucking taxes, and sponsering fucking bills and amendments that are too good to 'passover'.

pretty soon the face of good ol' abraham lincoln on the $5 bill will have gerri curls on him

so now instead of getting fucked over maybe in a divorce or an accident, its gonna become an everday thing

and whose gonna be left to model?

ulgy fat, crack whores, transgenders, illegal aliens, senior citizens,  a few canadians, our SPOUSES and GIRLFRIENDS and their girlfriends

GUYS

if i wanted to shoot my wife, i wouldnt fucking miss

LOL priceless

images by elahi wrote:
would you deal with them differently if they did come empowered to negotate in their best interest?

Yes, I wouldn't have to babytalk to them and try to sit down and have to explain (wasting 30 minutes) about the ins and outs of the business.
Models who know the business sign on the dotted line and get the job done quickly, quietly and professionally.

For the most part.