Shyly wrote:
My guesstimate, Tony, is that she heard it as an ultimatum, though I doubt you meant it that way.

Yeah, I'm thinking that too but I thought I was pretty friendly with what I said.
My bad?  Hey I'm thinking I'm paying ya.  Give me a time to reach you ignore the
rude part (try too) anyway.  In future though I'll cut the won't call you back untill
you let me know when too.  Man and I pride myself on being polite.

Tony Lawrence wrote:

Yeah, I'm thinking that too but I thought I was pretty friendly with what I said.
My bad?  Hey I'm thinking I'm paying ya.  Give me a time to reach you ignore the
rude part (try too) anyway.  In future though I'll cut the won't call you back untill
you let me know when too.  Man and I pride myself on being polite.

Tony, I'm sure you were trying to be 100% polite, she just heard it a different way on the phone.... happens all the time.  Unless she's a bitter human being, I'm sure you can just explain that to her and move on with the shoot.

Also, your work is too good to be paying man!!!

Dino

Dino Mangano wrote:

Tony, I'm sure you were trying to be 100% polite, she just heard it a different way on the phone.... happens all the time.  Unless she's a bitter human being, I'm sure you can just explain that to her and move on with the shoot.

Also, your work is too good to be paying man!!!

Dino

Thanks, Dino.  I really don't mind paying I made  a few bucks on some investments
although Bush is fuc$%^ that up now.  Leave the oil companies alone!
Anyway , I think you're right.  She heard it as rude and her response was not
very nice but understanable.  Even if she wanted to shoot I wouldn't be intrested
anymore.  Started on a bad foot.  Oh well.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Recently a model contacted me about a paid shoot I'm offering.
Paid not TFP not TFCD but money.  She left a number I called and
left a voice mail.  I said, please give me a good time to reach you so
that we don't play voice mail tag and I wouldn't call again untill she
did.  She wrote back calling me rude and saying she wouldn't want to shoot with me.  I admit I can be curt at times and I have a unique take
on things as many of you have noticed but I'm paying.  If I ask you to
give me a good time to call then do just that.  She also made a remark
about my calling from a blocked number.  Well I'm at a friends phone.
This is a general rant, hey many of the photographers here don't pay anything.  I'm offering money.  Its not a lot I admit, $25.00 per hour
$50.00 at most but its cash.  My hard earned cash.  I'm even offering a
lunch where some of the models can meet three designers that are also
paying late this summer for another shoot.  This doesn't apply to many of the models I've shot in the past but models like this one drive me
crazy!

You presumed flakiness, and you got it.. Self fulfilling prophesy..


"She left a number I called and
left a voice mail.  I said, please give me a good time to reach you so
that we don't play voice mail tag and I wouldn't call again untill she
did."

You could have just as easily just said "please leave me a good time to reach you so that we don't play voice mail tag."

Leave the rest off.. Then simply do not call again until she does..

Period..

You have now enforced your policy and not made presumptuous and rude statements about the model..

A lot of people are/will be flakes.. No need to be rude before the fact..  I don't care if you're paying or not (and personally, I'd rather have your images than your $25 an hour.. You've got good stuff..) professionalism goes 2 ways.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Really?  Hmmm.  I do that so I don't get into that missing each other and voice
mail tag stuff.  Maybe it was rude.  I can be a bit curt as I said.  Didn't mean to
be rude.  In future I'll just say give me a good time to call and leave out the
I won't call again untill you do.

Tony, that would be a good idea.  Sometimes it's not a matter to being "curt" but of saying more than you need to.  I know that I'm a "wordy" guy sometimes.  It's been the reason that my foot got stuck in my mouth more than a few times!  LOL

It's possible that she is overly sensitive, but just let it slide ... it's not that big a deal.  Besides, I'm sure you'll find someone else who want to get paid by you.

Patrick Walberg wrote:

Tony, that would be a good idea.  Sometimes it's not a matter to being "curt" but of saying more than you need to.  I know that I'm a "wordy" guy sometimes.  It's been the reason that my foot got stuck in my mouth more than a few times!  LOL

It's possible that she is overly sensitive, but just let it slide ... it's not that big a deal.  Besides, I'm sure you'll find someone else who want to get paid by you.

Yeah you guys are right.  I guess after all the no show no call models and the
voice mail tag game I'm a little worn out.  Its almost more work trying to get
a shoot going then it is to do it and I'm paying so who's the crazy one.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Yeah you guys are right.  I guess after all the no show no call models and the
voice mail tag game I'm a little worn out.  Its almost more work trying to get
a shoot going then it is to do it and I'm paying so who's the crazy one.

Although you are trying to be polite, some people will take your words the wrong way.  I'm sure that is what happened in your situation.

Tony, it's also possible to get burned out with all the technology availble to us for communication.  I swear I don't know what it must have been like without computers, cell phones, and digital cameras!  LOL 

Think about how photographers a hundred years ago had to work?  My grandfather was one of those guys carrying around a view camera using glass plates.  The photographer who shot most of the pictures from the San Francisco earthquake of 1906 was celebrated recently, but I wonder how many people understand that he was not taking those pictures with a point and shoot camera!  And models?  Heck, my grandfather paid American Indians to pose for him.  Models had to be perfectly still for a longer time back then ... and how did you find models a hundred years ago?  OK, the traditional modeling industry has changed along with photography. 

Damn near anyone can pick up a digital camera and learn who to shoot pictures.  The same goes for models ... not having to travel to agents offices for "model calls", instead you just log on to the 'net!  Post a few webcam shots on Model Mayhem and your a model! LOL  ... OK not that it makes you a "model" but it seems that is what some do!

I get so high strung from all the communications I do by phone, internet, and on rare ... occasion in person!  LOL   It gets difficult for me to fall asleep because I'm thinking about phone conversations I had earlier with a models and photographers accross the United States. Then I think about all the e-mails and phone calls I need to return ... and then songs I heard while being online with my music on.  Anyone else have a hard time sleeping due to technology overload?

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I had a intresting conversation with a friend about this issue and while she didn't
totally agree with my phone message.  She said, 'you planned on paying her,
right?'  Yes.  Then she needed to get over it and give you a time to call.
Maybe you could have been more polite but you're not friends this is bussiness.
She could have told you over the phone that you came off kind of rude.  She
added this.  People in bussiness are often crisp and no nonsense.  She sounds
like a bit of a baby and a little too sensitive.  My friend is a part time actor.
She ended with, 'I've been to auditions where people were really rude.'  Its not
nice but they don't have time for backrubs.'  I still do feel my actions were a bit
rude but hey I feel better.

it's good that you realize you were rude, b/c you were and therefore you learned from your mistake in being crass.

for the record just b/c you're paying someone doesn't give anyone the right to expedite rudeness to someone, that's absurd

don't justify the model's actions with being over sensitive, she sounds like me a no non-sense type of person and I don't tolerate RUDENESS from anyone and I wouldn't have responded to you based on that principal alone.

most importantly her 'justifiable' actions made you think about your actions and wha la, you now understand the ramifications with projecting 'abrasiveness' tha's not warranted.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
My wife as usual gave me the once over and I agree with her.  I'm not all that
sorry I won't shoot her.  No big deal but I want to always check myself even
when other people won't do it.  My friend wasn't supporting my rudeness she was
just saying that sometimes things are said or written and before you get angry about them talk them over.  She contacted me about paid work and if things were confused or she felt I was rude so be it.  Call me on it but still do the shoot if at all
possible.  Don't let someones sharp mouth keep money out of your pocket.  However thats me.  I'm pretty direct, I understand how she might feel.  Ah life.  If
I had all the answers I'd be a Iman.

but what you should understand everything in life isn't about $$$$$$$$$$$ and someone's sharpness as you put it will NOT be tolerated by all and your experience with this model is a clear example and hopefully the last...

some people are not going to waste their time dealing with certain types of energy or babysit someone's crassness (taking the time to call one out on it as you stated)...

it just doesn't work that way, you're asking for ALOT for someone to put aside their principles for a STRANGER none the less, shoot I don't do it for family members, if you're rude, RESOLVE your issues first, then call me *wink

Hair by Nedjetti wrote:

but what you should understand everything in life isn't about $$$$$$$$$$$ and someone's sharpness as you put it will NOT be tolerated by all and your experience with this model is a clear example and hopefully the last...

some people are not going to waste their time dealing with certain types of energy or babysit someone's crassness (taking the time to call one out on it as you stated)...

it just doesn't work that way, you're asking for ALOT for someone to put aside their principles for a STRANGER none the less, shoot I don't do it for family members, if you're rude, RESOLVE your issues first, then call me *wink

I feel you for sure but I recall years back when I was going for a job.  The
person hiring was a real ass.  I left angry at some of the things he said but
after I took the job learned that was just his way.  That is a lot to ask of a model
for one photo shoot.  Did I come across bad,  yep.  Will she meet other people
like me but worse, very likely.  Now here's the deal.  I try my best to be polite
I really do.  I try to be kind and respectfull but I sometimes drop the ball.
This has been a learning expirence for me.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I feel you for sure but I recall years back when I was going for a job.  The
person hiring was a real ass.  I left angry at some of the things he said but
after I took the job learned that was just his way.  That is a lot to ask of a model
for one photo shoot.  Did I come across bad,  yep.  Will she meet other people
like me but worse, very likely.  Now here's the deal.  I try my best to be polite
I really do.  I try to be kind and respectfull but I sometimes drop the ball.
This has been a learning expirence for me.

as my mother says "don't worry what the next person will do, JUST DO YOUR PART" and you recognizing your fault in this situation is just that, doing your part in making sure you don't come across as such again...

good for you !!!!

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Don't let someones sharp mouth keep money out of your pocket.

Ahhhh...the notion that we are all just whores to the almighty dollar!

As you know, models and photographers have to spend quite a bit of time together on the shoot (with some exceptions).  For that reason, your personality is more of a factor in her consideration of whether or not to work with you.  This was a voice message, no less.  So,  she probably thought, "If he is *already* speaking to me in this way; how pleasant is a daylong shoot with him going to be"? 

To be quite honest, I won't work with someone if I feel they are an a**hole (which, truth be told, may have been her thought....I'm just sayin' :-)).  I don't care whether I'm being paid or not for my time.  It's my choice whether or not to spend my afternoon with you - and not all of us will let others treat us poorly for a few bucks. 

If you contact people, and it's your initial contact, you may need to make a conscious, concerted effort to be more polite.  Trust me, I know it's not easy :-).  But, it *does* set the tone for the other person - and may make them more inclined to call you back.  Once you've got them on the phone...well...I guess you can unleash your inner rude (JOKE!).

As for paying her, you SHOULD be paying models who will add something special to your port - regardless of how good your work.  I've seen VERY few people whose work was so terrific that they should think themselves above paying *anyone*.  Bravo to you for recognizing the value in hiring good models :-)!

Now...play nice :-).

MaryPetiteModel wrote:

Ahhhh...the notion that we are all just whores to the almighty dollar!

As you know, models and photographers have to spend quite a bit of time together on the shoot (with some exceptions).  For that reason, your personality is more of a factor in her consideration of whether or not to work with you.  This was a voice message, no less.  So,  she probably thought, "If he is *already* speaking to me in this way; how pleasant is a daylong shoot with him going to be"? 

To be quite honest, I won't work with someone if I feel they are an a**hole (which, truth be told, may have been her thought....I'm just sayin' :-)).  I don't care whether I'm being paid or not for my time.  It's my choice whether or not to spend my afternoon with you - and not all of us will let others treat us poorly for a few bucks. 

If you contact people, and it's your initial contact, you may need to make a conscious, concerted effort to be more polite.  Trust me, I know it's not easy :-).  But, it *does* set the tone for the other person - and may make them more inclined to call you back.  Once you've got them on the phone...well...I guess you can unleash your inner rude (JOKE!).

As for paying her, you SHOULD be paying models who will add something special to your port - regardless of how good your work.  I've seen VERY few people whose work was so terrific that they should think themselves above paying *anyone*.  Bravo to you for recognizing the value in hiring good models :-)!

Now...play nice :-).

Its intresting to hear how I sound from other people.  When I said I would ONLY call back after she gave me a time it came accross like I had called several
times and in truth it was my first call.  My wife has to sometimes remind me
of what I'm saying might be taken the wrong way.  Although I didn't mean to
be rude it came accross that way.  I'll adjust my messages so that they are less
curt.  Its funny when I told my wife (most conservative Black women in the U.S.)
about what happened she gave me that look.  Men know it and all women know
how to give it.  She said and how many times have you called her?  One I said,
well dumbass (She really said, Tony. Dumbass is creative license.)  you could
have said just give me a good time to call back without that added stuff.

Tony Lawrence wrote:

Yeah, I'm thinking that too but I thought I was pretty friendly with what I said.
My bad?  Hey I'm thinking I'm paying ya.  Give me a time to reach you ignore the
rude part (try too) anyway.  In future though I'll cut the won't call you back untill
you let me know when too.  Man and I pride myself on being polite.

I think she should have brushed it off. She doesnt know you and she doesnt know how you meant it just by a voicemail. Its a paid job, call the photog back, set the date, and give it 110%. Period.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Its intresting to hear how I sound from other people....

Tony it's a generational thang!

Frankly if she thinks you were rude don't ever send her around my way. I'm way too old to play the games and I won't. Typically it goes like... I call the model - - - "Hello, this is.....  I have a paying job for you for next week. I am in the office every day between 11am and 1pm. Call me by 1pm this Friday or the offer is toast."

If they don't want the work, don't want the money, and don't call they can f**k off. They only get one chance - the first one and the last one.

Studio36

Claire Elizabeth wrote:

I think she should have brushed it off. She doesnt know you and she doesnt know how you meant it just by a voicemail. Its a paid job, call the photog back, set the date, and give it 110%. Period.

Thats kind of how I felt at first.  If you heard how I said it.  I considered myself
easy going but she took it as rude and I guess it was but for $25.00 to $50.00
an hour I'd call back but thats me.  I'd ask the person did they mean to be rude.
I'm pretty direct.  She has limited work on her profile here and I don't think is working as a model much but I don't know for sure.  Some one mentioned $25.00
to $50.00 per hour for a model isn't much but it really is for someone who isn't a
pro level model yet money wasn't a issue for her and even if things were eased
between us I wouldn't want to shoot her either.  I'll watch my tone and what I say
in future but I'm somewhat in your camp in many ways.  We don't know each other
I'm paying you ,take a moment to find to reach me and clarify what I meant.
The blocked number was due to my calling from a friends number.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
My wife has to sometimes remind me
of what I'm saying might be taken the wrong way.  Although I didn't mean to
be rude it came accross that way.  I'll adjust my messages so that they are less
curt.  Its funny when I told my wife (most conservative Black women in the U.S.)
about what happened she gave me that look.  Men know it and all women know
how to give it.  She said and how many times have you called her?  One I said,
well dumbass (She really said, Tony. Dumbass is creative license.)  you could
have said just give me a good time to call back without that added stuff.

LOL...thank God for spouses, eh :-)?  Your wife sounds like a sharp woman!  It IS nice, as another pointed out, that you are willing to examine your role in things.  It's never easy, but when we're working through e-mail, phone, etc. (anything not face-to-face), sometimes we have to work harder to come across in the way we really mean.
Best of luck to you...and I'm sure you'll have someone else lined up quickly (if not already)!

Porchia wrote:
You know what Tony...you are the best! I just love your honesty and the way you hold no punches!

Yes you were rude, but I agree that she needs to get over it, hell  you have been rude to me before and still I would hop a flight to Texas to work with you anytime! And I would do it for free, you are paying her...please tell me what the problem is! For once, even though you were admittingly rude, Im on your side and agree that you were paying her so she needs to stop being a baby, get over it, and go to the damn shoot!

Porchia a model e-mailed me seconds after I e-mailed the other model with nice
things to say about my portfoilo.  Its beautifull women like you and her that make
all this worth while.  I think I've been guilty of this too.  We respond in anger before we really know the whole story or the person we are working with.
For example, if I as a model had a problem with a photographer I might be very
cautious in the future.  That makes sense but unless its known then the next
photographer takes a models caution as suspicion and fear.  No ones required to
give their life stories of course and this isn't Blind date which I love.  However
sometimes a little background helps people understand us better.

MaryPetiteModel wrote:

Ahhhh...the notion that we are all just whores to the almighty dollar!

As you know, models and photographers have to spend quite a bit of time together on the shoot (with some exceptions).  For that reason, your personality is more of a factor in her consideration of whether or not to work with you.  This was a voice message, no less.  So,  she probably thought, "If he is *already* speaking to me in this way; how pleasant is a daylong shoot with him going to be"? 

To be quite honest, I won't work with someone if I feel they are an a**hole (which, truth be told, may have been her thought....I'm just sayin' :-)).  I don't care whether I'm being paid or not for my time.  It's my choice whether or not to spend my afternoon with you - and not all of us will let others treat us poorly for a few bucks. 

If you contact people, and it's your initial contact, you may need to make a conscious, concerted effort to be more polite.  Trust me, I know it's not easy :-).  But, it *does* set the tone for the other person - and may make them more inclined to call you back.  Once you've got them on the phone...well...I guess you can unleash your inner rude (JOKE!).

As for paying her, you SHOULD be paying models who will add something special to your port - regardless of how good your work.  I've seen VERY few people whose work was so terrific that they should think themselves above paying *anyone*.  Bravo to you for recognizing the value in hiring good models :-)!

Now...play nice :-).

Wait until your older.  By that time you pretty much learn that almost everyone is an a**hole.  In one way or another.