Abdiel Urcullu Photo wrote:
Okay! In my profile you can CLEARLY read (and most of what my profile says is about it) is that I do not reschedule TFPs or TFCDs.

Yes, it's important to have rigid rules pertaining to the hobby.

area291 wrote:

Yes, it's important to have rigid rules pertaining to the hobby.

umm i don't see this like a hobby. If it was a hobby I wouldn't have any rules. I am a photo student and hope to be someone here.  I don't see this like a hobby, i see this as my passion and I ask for respect for it. that's why i want others to respect my time as I respect theirs.. I guess i just need to get models who are serious about what they are doing and what they wanna get.

Abdiel Urcullu Photo wrote:
Okay! In my profile you can CLEARLY read (and most of what my profile says is about it) is that I do not reschedule TFPs or TFCDs.. a few minutes earlier I had a model scheduled for today, last week he contacted me and for personal reasons he wasn't going to make it. I agreed with rescheduling for next saturday!. Today I was contacted by a model saying that he had a shot that was rescheduled for the same day we were going to shoot, and that he wasn't going to make it.

I said it was okay, and that I apologized but I would not be able to reschedule because I don't think it's of my best interest. Simply because I didn't want to take more chances of him not showing up/cancelling again. I just don't feel like trusting his guts again.

He said that the other shoot was scheduled (for another day) way before mine and that since they asked to reschedule for 'my day' he agreed and had to cancel on me. And that it was priority since they scheduled before. And that i was going to go NO WHERE if I was not flexible and didn't reschedule.

I said I was going to be somewhere because I am profesional and I work only with profesionals. At the end he's the one getting a more decent portfolio, I am just getting variety, which I can get with my friends and ask them to model if I want to anyways...

He acused me of feeling like I'm better than the people I work with. Since I was gaining more experience. I said I can live with one photoshoot less than  the total anyways. He said he didn't want to work with me anymore, since I'm showing a different person than when I contacted him about his shot.

I don't think i'm acting like nothing but someone acting like a profesional who wants to get somewhere, and flexibility will just take me to more and more cancelations, since ''I will shoot whenever the model feels like showing up and not canceling''

I know I am lucky he is letting me know a week in advance and just not showing up, but is my 'policy' that much politically incorrect?

Your mistake was rescheduling the first time.. You state you have a rule.. You broke it..  Then someone got bent out of shape because you wouldn't break it again..

I DON'T have hard and fast rules, but if you're going to.. You've got to stick to them..  Personally, I'd be glad this particular client is out of your hair.. Sounds like a PITA to me.

dncphotos wrote:
Im on your side.

I had a model cancel on me last minute for a TFP shoot yesterday which was reschudled from Monday in which she "forgot" about the shoot then.

I contemplate on not rescheduling with her again for the fact she brings me alot of paid business,
but one gets to a point where you're like "OK, thats enough" and Im at that point now.

So I feel your pain....

that'd piss me off.. ugh.. who forgets about showing up to work?

WG Rowland wrote:

Your mistake was rescheduling the first time.. You state you have a rule.. You broke it..  Then someone got bent out of shape because you wouldn't break it again..

I DON'T have hard and fast rules, but if you're going to.. You've got to stick to them..  Personally, I'd be glad this particular client is out of your hair.. Sounds like a PITA to me.

Yes, i actually am glad.. it just kinda bothered me that he said 'you are going no-where if you are not flexible', i think i am going to go nowhere if i'm sucking his toes all the time..

Gray Line Studios wrote:
I have to agree with you. This model is trying to accomondate another photog while playing games with your time. It is good they gave you a weeks notice, but this is the secondtime. I had a model call me to cancel as I was leaving to meet her. Then she sent me an email the next day saying she was sorry, but mentioned a completly different reason why she had to cancel. Making me question what was the real reason she cancelled.

There are times when events are beyond a person's control, but it sounds (based upon your side of the story) like this person was being less then professional and why waste any more time with him. After reading his responce, you are justified.

well yeah, i actually did re-schedule with someone who called me the day before saying she her brother had just been in an accident and she was probably not going to be able to show up. I said we would see what happened and if it was serious to worry about her family matters first. She called me a couple of hours before the shoot was scheduled and said she could come but her brother wasn't doing good and she sounded tired, I said it was okay, i didn't want her to be worried about her brother during the shoot and being tired would show in the pictures. I am flexible sometimes..but you gotta give something that sounds ligitimate.. at least pretend, you know?

WG Rowland wrote:
Your mistake was rescheduling the first time.. You state you have a rule.. You broke it..  Then someone got bent out of shape because you wouldn't break it again..

I DON'T have hard and fast rules, but if you're going to.. You've got to stick to them..  Personally, I'd be glad this particular client is out of your hair.. Sounds like a PITA to me.

I understand the point here, but I don't think that it's ever a mistake to give someone a second chance.  As a professional of any kind you have rules and policies to govern your operation, but great customer service is never a bad idea.  True it was a TFP shoot, but even when no money changes hands you can still receive goodwill, not to mention potential future referrals.  I'd like to believe that this is not a business where large egos dictate inflexibility, although I have seen evidence on both sides of the argument.

In my opinion AUP, I think that this was handled as well as it possibly could have been and I commend you on your tact and willingness to go the extra mile.

Carpe Imago Photography wrote:

I understand the point here, but I don't think that it's ever a mistake to give someone a second chance.  As a professional of any kind you have rules and policies to govern your operation, but great customer service is never a bad idea.  True it was a TFP shoot, but even when no money changes hands you can still receive goodwill, not to mention potential future referrals.  I'd like to believe that this is not a business where large egos dictate inflexibility, although I have seen evidence on both sides of the argument.

In my opinion AUP, I think that this was handled as well as it possibly could have been and I commend you on your tact and willingness to go the extra mile.

Like I said..  I don't have any such rules.. But if you're going to have them, you've got to enforce them..

Personally, if I were the OP.. I'd modify the rules to saying something along the lines of no more than one reschedule..  That way he's not being inflexible.. And if someone starts running a BS guilt trip like the model mentioned above, he can say, sorry, but it's my policy.. Best of luck to you... *CLICK*...

This guy's problem isn't that he's being too hard.. Or too soft.. It's that someone tried to manipulate him, and when it didn't work he laid a guilt trip on him.. And it got to the OP..  I'd say that shows that he's a pretty fair minded guy or he wouldn't have even brought it up..

In this particular case it's the model who's been more than inconsiderate here..  This guy's set up not one, but two shoots.. Who knows what cost..  The model fails to show twice.. And then tries to make the photog feel bad about not wanting to get burned a third time?  Ugh..  I don't care what side of the lens you're on.. Behavior like that is NOT cool..

WG Rowland wrote:

Like I said..  I don't have any such rules.. But if you're going to have them, you've got to enforce them..

Personally, if I were the OP.. I'd modify the rules to saying something along the lines of no more than one reschedule..  That way he's not being inflexible.. And if someone starts running a BS guilt trip like the model mentioned above, he can say, sorry, but it's my policy.. Best of luck to you... *CLICK*...

This guy's problem isn't that he's being too hard.. Or too soft.. It's that someone tried to manipulate him, and when it didn't work he laid a guilt trip on him.. And it got to the OP..  I'd say that shows that he's a pretty fair minded guy or he wouldn't have even brought it up..

In this particular case it's the model who's been more than inconsiderate here..  This guy's set up not one, but two shoots.. Who knows what cost..  The model fails to show twice.. And then tries to make the photog feel bad about not wanting to get burned a third time?  Ugh..  I don't care what side of the lens you're on.. Behavior like that is NOT cool..

yes i'm not willing to give it a 3rd try. actually the only time i have not given a second time it's when the model confessed he got drunk the night before and didn't wake up for the shoot. he apologized, and i felt bad, so i apologized back, but that's such a show a disrespect that i was not willing to try AGAIN if he didnt' show up because of that.

Brian Diaz wrote:
Frankly, I think that making such a rule is conceited, and making exceptions to the rule is hypocritical.

That's a little harsh Brian. We've all been dissed by TFCD models. Preferring not to reschedule when plans had already been discussed and adopted seems reasonable. How many no-shows are we supposed to accept from a stranger who is getting a good service for little cost and little time?

I agree though that not breaking the rule ought to be another rule.

mrclay2000 wrote:

That's a little harsh Brian. We've all been dissed by TFCD models. Preferring not to reschedule when plans had already been discussed and adopted seems reasonable. How many no-shows are we supposed to accept from a stranger who is getting a good service for little cost and little time?

I agree though that not breaking the rule ought to be another rule.

Why do photographers act like they are doing models a favor by doing TFCD ?

We're doing you a favor too, trust me. Just like a model needs to be in front of the camera as much as possible a photographer needs to be behind it.

I'm not saying you should "deal with no-shows" but stop acting like your above the model simply because your the photographer. Intentionally or not... trust me, that is the image some of you are portraying.

If you want models to show and you want models that can help give you a good portfolio (TFP is mutually beneficial remember?) you need to act in a manner that is going to make people want to work with you instead of using you as a back-up plan and blowing you off for other offers.

If we really want to work with you, we will be there. We will be there on time. We will not reschedule and we will not no show.

There are a million great photographers out there... market yourself as one of the ones we want to work with and I bet you stop getting no shows ! Imagine.

mrclay2000 wrote:

That's a little harsh Brian. We've all been dissed by TFCD models. Preferring not to reschedule when plans had already been discussed and adopted seems reasonable. How many no-shows are we supposed to accept from a stranger who is getting a good service for little cost and little time?

This wasn't a no-show.  This was a rescheduling with a week's notice.

The implication is that if you schedule a shoot and need to change it for any reason, you are unprofessional and not worth my time and effort.  That's conceit.  That's a way of saying, "My time to so valuable, you better not let any of the crap going on in your life get in the way of my shooting you (for free)."

Without a written rule, you can make those decisions on a case-by-case basis.  I have never rescheduled a model who flaked on me, but those who call and want to reschedule are welcome to.  The more desireable the model, the harder I'll work to fit her or him into my schedule.

michelleKristine wrote:
Let me put it this way... If your policy is that you do not re schedule, then do not re schedule.  However, as far as your professional image goes, from a models perspective... the excessiveness in your profile about no shows would instinctively lead me to wonder if there was a reason you had so many models no showing on you.

i agree with that wonder about how many models not showing up on me. but to tell you the truth i have just started out. and i want to start right. so far only one has tried to do it and it didnt' work with him. i see it as a warning since 'online models' tend to be irresponsable.

michelleKristine wrote:

Why do photographers act like they are doing models a favor by doing TFCD ?

We're doing you a favor too, trust me. Just like a model needs to be in front of the camera as much as possible a photographer needs to be behind it.

I'm not saying you should "deal with no-shows" but stop acting like your above the model simply because your the photographer. Intentionally or not... trust me, that is the image some of you are portraying.

If you want models to show and you want models that can help give you a good portfolio (TFP is mutually beneficial remember?) you need to act in a manner that is going to make people want to work with you instead of using you as a back-up plan and blowing you off for other offers.

If we really want to work with you, we will be there. We will be there on time. We will not reschedule and we will not no show.

There are a million great photographers out there... market yourself as one of the ones we want to work with and I bet you stop getting no shows ! Imagine.

hun, seriously, look at half of your pictures and you'll see why we are making a favor. for us it's not just the couple of hours taking pictures. goes beyond that. where? Fixing your imperfections. in my case and policies.. ordering 5 profesionally printed 5x10s that cost me money. and believe me, there are many photographers, yes, but there are many psychos too. and guess what.. there are more models.. models wanna be than photographers. so suit yourself.

Brian Diaz wrote:

This wasn't a no-show.  This was a rescheduling with a week's notice.

The implication is that if you schedule a shoot and need to change it for any reason, you are unprofessional and not worth my time and effort.  That's conceit.  That's a way of saying, "My time to so valuable, you better not let any of the crap going on in your life get in the way of my shooting you (for free)."

Without a written rule, you can make those decisions on a case-by-case basis.  I have never rescheduled a model who flaked on me, but those who call and want to reschedule are welcome to.  The more desireable the model, the harder I'll work to fit her or him into my schedule.

This was a second try to reschedule.. let's say everytime they try to rescheudle counts as half of a no show-up. sooooo.. that means he didn't show up easy math and it equals no reschedule. he knew about it, when we scheduled he had read my profile already, i hope

Abdiel Urcullu Photo wrote:
hun, seriously, look at half of your pictures and you'll see why we are making a favor. for us it's not just the couple of hours taking pictures. goes beyond that. where? Fixing your imperfections. in my case and policies.. ordering 5 profesionally printed 5x10s that cost me money. and believe me, there are many photographers, yes, but there are many psychos too. and guess what.. there are more models.. models wanna be than photographers. so suit yourself.

Oh so we as models don't spend time and money before shoot getting ready?
It depends of what the exact shoot is but I have gotten waxed, plucked, primped, painted, hair curled, shaved, driven over 2.5 hours to shoots. heck flown half away across the country, and after a few shoots I've had to make a visit to the local TCM to be poked with tiny needles and massaged to get the kinks out of my body.

It's not a favor either way it is a colaberation.

Iona Lynn wrote:

Oh so we as models don't spend time and money before shoot getting ready?
It depends of what the exact shoot is but I have gotten waxed, plucked, primped, painted, hair curled, shaved, driven over 2.5 hours to shoots. heck flown half away across the country, and after a few shoots I've had to make a visit to the local TCM to be poked with tiny needles and massaged to get the kinks out of my body.

It's not a favor either way it is a colaberation.

okay, other hun, compare your port with hers. I AM SORRY! i am a bitch if you think i am, cause i am, i know i am! and yes... it takes time. but think out of the box. and if you read my profile i say many times it's a collaboration, evne the shoot style i discuss iwth the models in advance so he/she will be comfortable with.

Abdiel Urcullu Photo wrote:
i agree with that wonder about how many models not showing up on me. but to tell you the truth i have just started out. and i want to start right. so far only one has tried to do it and it didnt' work with him. i see it as a warning since 'online models' tend to be irresponsable.

What a load of crap. Online models are not necessarily more irresponsible than offline models. That's a horribly insulting thing to say. You have an extremely ugly attitude, maybe that's why you get flaked out on. Yes some models flake. It happens, it shouldn't but it does. Move on, pick better next time and hope for the best. Oh and i've had several photographers flake on me in the last month. Does this mean that all online photographers are irresponsible?

Abdiel Urcullu Photo wrote:

hun, seriously, look at half of your pictures and you'll see why we are making a favor. for us it's not just the couple of hours taking pictures. goes beyond that. where? Fixing your imperfections. in my case and policies.. ordering 5 profesionally printed 5x10s that cost me money. and believe me, there are many photographers, yes, but there are many psychos too. and guess what.. there are more models.. models wanna be than photographers. so suit yourself.

..."look at my portfolio" as you say. Is it great? Nah... that's because I actually WORK and one I have not put up pictures from some of my best shoots.  I am either waiting on CDs or HEY focusing on my actual book.  A book has prints, like real ones.  Do you have a book? Because last I checked your portfolio was so hot you couldn't even get a model to show up to shoot. Stop b itching and start shooting. Your portfolio needs some work as well my friend.  On that note... please try to re read your posts.  As with your profile, your posts are so poorly written I can often not tell what you are even trying to say. I agree with the previous comment... "no wonder you get so many flakes"

safiraangel wrote:

What a load of crap. Online models are not necessarily more irresponsible than offline models. That's a horribly insulting thing to say. You have an extremely ugly attitude, maybe that's why you get flaked out on. Yes some models flake. It happens, it shouldn't but it does. Move on, pick better next time and hope for the best. Oh and i've had several photographers flake on me in the last month. Does this mean that all online photographers are irresponsible?

nono no no no, i'm not generalizing. everyone cancels. but what i'm saying here is that many models dont' think of this seriously, they just want 'pretty pictures' to feed their ego but not because they actually want to get in the industry. that's what i meant. i apologize for misunderstandings there..

michelleKristine wrote:

..."look at my portfolio" as you say. Is it great? Nah... that's because I actually WORK and one I have not put up pictures from some of my best shoots.  I am either waiting on CDs or HEY focusing on my actual book.  A book has prints, like real ones.  Do you have a book? Because last I checked your portfolio was so hot you couldn't even get a model to show up to shoot. Stop b itching and start shooting. Your portfolio needs some work as well my friend.  On that note... please try to re read your posts.  As with your profile, your posts are so poorly written I can often not tell what you are even trying to say. I agree with the previous comment... "no wonder you get so many flakes"

yup i have a book and I provide my models with 5 potographs to add to theirs. yes 8x10s and matte printed. ready to be added. and believe me contact models i've worked with and you'll see if they have had a good experience or not.

lusid wrote:
You hear often about the models that flake but I've had photographers cancel on me 24-48 hrs ahead of time (that's okay, but I have to re-arrange my day job schedule to accomodate shoots at least two weeks ahead of time...) and I once had a photographer confirm a shoot and then never give me an address. He later said he needed to reschedule but never contacted me to do so. I once had a fashion show reschedule rehearsals two hours ahead of time- I had to drop out of the show because I couldn't rearrange my schedule that fast. I try very hard to be on time, I never cancel, and I prepare, and it's just as frustrating for me to have a no-show as it is for a photographer who's arranged studio, MUA, etc. It goes both ways.

i'm glad you are one of those who take this seriously. thumbs up to you! (i mean it)

WG Rowland wrote:
Like I said..  I don't have any such rules.. But if you're going to have them, you've got to enforce them..

Personally, if I were the OP.. I'd modify the rules to saying something along the lines of no more than one reschedule..  That way he's not being inflexible.. And if someone starts running a BS guilt trip like the model mentioned above, he can say, sorry, but it's my policy.. Best of luck to you... *CLICK*...

This guy's problem isn't that he's being too hard.. Or too soft.. It's that someone tried to manipulate him, and when it didn't work he laid a guilt trip on him.. And it got to the OP..  I'd say that shows that he's a pretty fair minded guy or he wouldn't have even brought it up..

In this particular case it's the model who's been more than inconsiderate here..  This guy's set up not one, but two shoots.. Who knows what cost..  The model fails to show twice.. And then tries to make the photog feel bad about not wanting to get burned a third time?  Ugh..  I don't care what side of the lens you're on.. Behavior like that is NOT cool..

Mr. Rowland, you raise very good points.  I agree completely.

michelleKristine wrote:
Why do photographers act like they are doing models a favor by doing TFCD ?

We're doing you a favor too, trust me. Just like a model needs to be in front of the camera as much as possible a photographer needs to be behind it.

I'm not saying you should "deal with no-shows" but stop acting like your above the model simply because your the photographer. Intentionally or not... trust me, that is the image some of you are portraying.

If you want models to show and you want models that can help give you a good portfolio (TFP is mutually beneficial remember?) you need to act in a manner that is going to make people want to work with you instead of using you as a back-up plan and blowing you off for other offers.

If we really want to work with you, we will be there. We will be there on time. We will not reschedule and we will not no show.

There are a million great photographers out there... market yourself as one of the ones we want to work with and I bet you stop getting no shows ! Imagine.

Oh well time to toss in an opinion.

First Michelle - I like your look you got that whole all american girl next door look going on - something I'm always on the look out for.

Second - When it comes to TFP work it's all a favor for a favor and theres always a risk of no shows.  But as a model please bear in mind a lot of photographers new to the business need to work with models that are willing to do TFP as all their cash is tied up in equipment - got the equioment now need models to build photographers book then once they got the pics they can start promoting for jobs.

Third - Seasoned, commisioned, working photographers that are shooting for clients have a budget to pay a model and will select from a list of models they know, like and can trust, or go through an agency to ensure reliability.  Most seasoned photographers will only take on a model for a TFP if it is firstly beneficial to the photographer or if the photographer believes the model has something special to bring to the shoot.  Otherwise if the models looking for shots for her book and wants a talented seasoned photographer, the model should expect to pay.  In Manhattan they can bee looking at $300 just for head shots.

Forth - to the guy that started this post - you need to redo your port and rethink your attitude if your going to get any place in this business.

Lastly - As for rebooking a TFP shoot for a model that should be a case by case basis - I have rebooked TFP shoots before and been glad I did as my favorite moel to shoot with happened to be a rebooking.

Best wishes all - Darren

Carpe Imago Photography wrote:
I understand the point here, but I don't think that it's ever a mistake to give
someone a second chance.

Well said, Carpe Imago.    That statement can also apply to those of us who have child(ren) and are depending on that sitter to come through for us and be reliable.  But I don't like to schedule a shoot anyway until I'm sure that I can be there on that day/time...otherwise it would just be a "tentative shoot date" that we'd have to cofirm later.

michelleKristine wrote:
Why would I contact models you've worked with? Your attitude s*cks, your image is unprofessional and your portfolio shows no range. (read as constructive critism bc these things are all easily changed)

There's a thread in the Models section you might want to read threw. I think it's called encouraging / discouraging responses.  It's a discussion on the mannerisms between models and photographers.

ok, i'm not here trying to shoot, i'm trying to find out if i'm the only one with this problem (which i already found it's pretty darn common). My attitude is different most or the time unless i'm in a frustrating situation like this, which i have been in twice in the 2 months i've been trying to get myself in the industry and go beyond my friends and thaking photos of 'em)