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Permission to shoot in public places -- denied!
I'm pretty pissed right now. I'm wondering if anyone has been in the following situation, and what did you do? I live in Phoenix, Az -- specifically, I live in Mesa. The city is a Mormon community and there is a definite "Good ol' Boy" mentality. Recently, the city (which is in financial straights) decided to use tax dollars to build an arts center. It's fukkin beautiful. I want to photograph a model at the arts center -- so I started jumping through hoops to get permission. You may be asking -- why do I need permission? Why don't I just go there? Well, I want to bring my lights. I want to do this in a highly stylized manner. I want my pictures to be beautiful. For a week, the public affairs office of the arts center and the city ignored my phone calls and e-mails -- until yesterday. I was given tentative permission to shoot tonight -- and on Sunday. This morning, however, I received an e-mail which said that they didn't "have a policy on this issue." So for now, they said, I couldn't shoot. They said that in June, I could reapply -- as long as I gave them two-weeks notice. Now I don't know if you've ever been to Phoenix in June, but you can trust me when I say that it is fukkin' HOT. Nobody wants to go outside, let alone model and get their clothes all sweaty. The funny thing is: The City, in order to get a film permit asks for a certificate stating that I have $1M of liability insurance. I have $2M. Is it me -- or has anyone else been in this situation? Tony Apr 20 06 02:16 pm Link Been there, done that, let it go, and get back to work. Never know for sure why some locations will let you move through the hoops smoothly; others light 'em on fire & line 'em with barbed-wire! Reality Check, huh? FML Apr 20 06 02:20 pm Link It's really hard to "let it go." This place is a work of art unto itself. I live in a desert -- so it's nice to see something nice. I only want to shoot in the public areas. I don't want special access or anyone to hold my hand. What you don't know about Mesa: It's illegal for you to walk your dog in a public park -- even if it's on a leash. Also, Mesa has an election coming up where homeowners are going to get an extra tax to pay for this arts center that I can't photograph. Grrrrrr! Apr 20 06 02:28 pm Link give it up man; every city has some quirky law or rule ... but yeah, it's the folks, the arm-chair lawyers & junior cops, interpreting the laws a lot of the time who mess things up. if nothing else, (have tried this), ask someone differently there later. 'til then, hold your concept in mind & wait 'til the fire goes out, then you'll be gracing us with these really amazing photos. uh, oh yeah, been through mesa. nice place. fml Apr 20 06 02:33 pm Link Last Sunday I just went to out civic center and did a shoot. No one said anything, except a little buzz from the crowd wondering if we were anyone they should know... lol Didn't try to get power, though. Apr 20 06 02:35 pm Link Unfortunately, I stoopid enough to fight the biggest guy in the room. I have a ccw to ensure that I win. I may lose in this matter, but before I do, I am going to make it VERY uncomfortable for someone. I've already been pokin' around on the ACLU Web site -- I really do think that I can make some one squirm. T Uh, oh yeah, I've been through Texas -- damn, it was BIG (Texas, that is)! Apr 20 06 02:38 pm Link I just a thought. Get to know your local councillor. (Not sure what you call them in your part of the world). The person you voted for (or against) in your municipal election. Apr 20 06 02:38 pm Link SmartAz Photography wrote: (shakes head) hmm ... you're gonna burn your bridges before you get the images; those people, wrong or not, have a way of remembering [such actions] ... Apr 20 06 02:42 pm Link Stephen Dawson wrote: I think that's a smart idea. I would do that, but these people insulate themselves so much that they are untouchable. Apr 20 06 02:42 pm Link Okay, if Mesa does not have a film commission then Arizona does. Contact the State Film Commission and ask them what the procedure is. While youre doing that, check the Annotated Codes Of Arizona to see if there are State laws regarding Photographing in/of Public Spaces, Buildings, etc..... Now, even if there arent any codes or ordinances governing such, they are still public spaces and then I would go ahead and shoot...if there are no laws, they cant stop you---if it's public space. As long as you have the C O I and you dont impede flow of traffic or create a "public nuisance." Apr 20 06 02:43 pm Link http://www.commerce.state.az.us/Film/default.asp did you check the above? http://www.governor.state.az.us/ftc/meetings.asp Now, an elected official can be of assistance to you. aLso, if you guys have anything like a "community board". Apr 20 06 02:45 pm Link It's up to them whether or not to let you shoot and most palce decied to err on the side of caustion unless you are CBS or a big contributor. It is thier rep on the line if you make the palce show in some unflattering light. Not that you would but this is the thinking I have encounterd. And then there is the fee for the off duty cop at double time to control traffic. the fee for the permit, the insurance has to name the city (or whoever is in charge) as the benificery..etc etc aud nausium! Ben there too back in my fashion days! Now when I was with CBS it was a couple of phone calls and we were set! Mike Apr 20 06 02:48 pm Link An update: I think I've found a friend. I've managed to make a woman in the Public Information Office angry (in a good way). She is taking my cause under her wing and is talking to the City Manager at this very moment (of course if you are reading this in an hour from now, it won't be at that moment). Apr 20 06 02:57 pm Link If you shoot a building and want to ever use the images commercially you can be shut down without a release from the property owner. I don't know how this relates to a municipal owner, but I would work with the city. Do a preliminary or test shoot without the equipment and firm up what you want to spend your time on when you get the approval to set up for a formal shoot. Apr 20 06 02:58 pm Link SmartAz Photography wrote: 1. Email? What email? I thought you folks said I could do it. (Other than maybe getting stopped, what's the penalty for going ahead with the shoot?) Apr 20 06 03:00 pm Link ArtisticDigitalImages wrote: I think he stated he wanted to use PUBLIC BUILDING Apr 20 06 03:02 pm Link Mike Walker wrote: I used to be a photojournalist and worked at a newspaper that is less than a mile from this place. Like you and your CBS affiliation, I could do whatever I wanted. Apr 20 06 03:05 pm Link images by elahi wrote: I want to thank you for your input. Because of it I made a phone call and it seems as if I now have someone on my side. The shoot for today is out of the question (I've already sent the model home), but maybe I am shooting on Sunday (if all goes well). Apr 20 06 03:07 pm Link Just because something is public, doesn't mean you can use it for photography. It's true dogs poop on grass, skateboards damage concete, and homeless people live on public land for free. But, that's the way it is and they don't know what you're doing with the photos. There are also building/property releases. This is why I always have some sort of permit for our group shoots. Apr 20 06 03:10 pm Link SmartAz Photography wrote: man, not only is their the absence of freedom in this regard, elitism...see If I am with a network shouldnt privilege me in any way...however, that's the way it is....I have been on productions and worked with powerful people who and "pulled strings"...It's unfair but that's the way it is.. Apr 20 06 03:14 pm Link CaliModels wrote: no, but as it is public and therefore being a taxpayer, you have rights to use it...if any governmental authority tells you you cant, you should fight it......first check your STate Laws to see what they say.....tell me what public spaces you would not be entitled to use if you went through proper procedures....? Apr 20 06 03:17 pm Link SmartAz Photography wrote: THIS is the reason I use 'private estates, mansions and unincorperated locations' whenever possible (like our April 30th event). With 14+ years of doing this, you're looking at loads of experience here dealing with government dunderheads. If you give some braindead city, county or state appointed gestapo moron the opportunity to fuckup your photoshoot... THEY WILL... Apr 20 06 03:23 pm Link ...use it for FREE. You can use just about anything if pay enough money. They'll redirect traffic, save you parking spaces, and inform air traffic if you have enough money or can do something for them. Like I was told, if you want to change it, run for city council. Apr 20 06 03:27 pm Link I think the problem is with the fact you want to bring in lights, and make it into a studio. If you used the outdoor area with just an on camera flash, there probably wouldn't have been an issue. While you may have 2 million in insurance, they may still not wish you to do this in such a "production" manner simply because it will be a distraction to not only those that work there, or are visiting. How about having visitors walking behind the shots, or getting close to the lights to see what's going on and wanting to catch a glimpse - Gotta luv those rubber neckers! How many places are willing to close areas down for a photoshoot? You'd be hurting business for them. And yes, I spent 3 1/2 years on Arizona doing shoots in Sierra Vista, Tucson, Phoenix, Mesa, Pomerane, and Yuma. I do know about the heat issue. Apr 20 06 03:27 pm Link Ken Long wrote: in other cities, you would use some kind of barrier and possibly an officer to "flow the traffick" so as not to obstruct" Apr 20 06 03:30 pm Link Right after 9/11 I almost had my camera confiscated by the police for shooting in downtown Houston. I guess they thought I was scoping out a building to hit. Terrorists probably don't use portable lighting, but they didn't see it that way. Apr 20 06 03:31 pm Link Wayne Bockmon wrote: interesting....i guess photogrpahers should starting carrying around whatever the State and City Law Ordinaces allowing photographing public spaces and be prepared to whip it/them out on the gestapo Apr 20 06 03:35 pm Link images by elahi wrote: Accomodating people starts to cause trouble. I'm sure they didn't think that photographers would want to do photoshoots there - rather just allowing people to view the areas. Next thing you know, you have 30 photographers there all bringing lights, MUA's, and the infamous llama herders and other people aren't going to be able to see the exhibits. Whose going to supply the officer? Should the city pay for that? Nope... that should fall to the photographer. Setting up barricades - how much area should you be allowed? How much do you take away from others to let this one person shoot an image? Apr 20 06 03:38 pm Link Theorectically, being a Taxpayer gives you rights to speak and petition. It doesn't grant an individual to change the rules, by themselves. A Taxpayer (citizen) can obtain signatures and petition some council. If they don't want it though, you don't get. Here's an example. Walmart. The City of Rosemead, despite being outvoted by citizens to build a Walmart, are building it. They even tried a marathon council meeting to outlast citizens. Can you imagine that? Citizens now want a recall of officials. But, officials say they can't do that. Apr 20 06 03:41 pm Link "It's better to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission." And we didnt have cordless power packs back then.. Apr 20 06 03:45 pm Link Personally, I think you went about this all wrong. If you wanted to photograph somewhere that you knew would be a problem, talk to a friend in the marketing department, let him/her know that the pictures would be fab and that the art centre would have access to the best ones for their own marketing literature (with proper credit of course). Remember, the best way to get somebody to give you what you want is to make sure they knew they're getting whatever it is that they want. Apr 20 06 03:46 pm Link SmartAz Photography wrote: As a technical and legal matter, they can't hold you up indefinitely because they don't have a policy. That's arbitrary and capricious. Technically, you could file a lawsuit and seek immediate equitable relief, e.g., a temporary restraining order prohibiting the city from continuing to bar you from shooting and/or from failing to provide you with clear guidelines. Eventually, you'd probably win. But in the real world, it's probably not worth the time and money. Apr 20 06 03:48 pm Link Ken Long wrote: Here's the funny thing, Ken: The City of Mesa says you need a permit to shoot in the public areas. In order to gain the permit they say you need e-mail your insurance to their office. They never really tell you how to apply -- or even let you know how to physically obtain the permit. Apr 20 06 04:18 pm Link Ken Long wrote: okay I am basing my opinions on actual expereince with film and tv production in NYC....not opinions... Apr 20 06 04:21 pm Link CaliModels wrote: LOL well every city and stae municipality should have codes and ordinances governing public spaces...you know why? because in every city and state municipality you have photographers, tv stations and radio stations.....media....now if a municipality doest have laws on the books, doesnt mean they shouldnt...laws are obsolete and antiquated...and they need to be updated Apr 20 06 04:27 pm Link SmartAz Photography wrote: okay is the arts centre owned by the city? is it a city facility? or a governmental facility? Apr 20 06 04:30 pm Link "It's easier to get forgiveness than permission" Apr 20 06 04:31 pm Link SmartAz Photography wrote: Finding out that you want to shoot after hours could lead to some changes. The only other question for you would be this. While the Art Center is a public place, is it still "privately" owned? I knew of some malls over there that were "private" property, and therefore had thier own enforceable rules on certain issues regarding cameras used on the property and such. Apr 20 06 04:31 pm Link good greif, I HATE that kinda crap. Heck even cursed KENT isn't that bad, THe local library didn't give me any fuss, only made me sign ONE paper (Because I booked a meeting room), and basically ketp thier STUPID snooty noses to themselves. (kent has some of thestupidest laws I've ever seen.) I still like thier repsosne: "As long as its noncommercial, its a public place. knock yourself out" Apr 20 06 04:34 pm Link Ken Long wrote: lOL hey im sure he'd go to jail for his craft! LOL Apr 20 06 04:37 pm Link |