Kelly Kooper wrote:
If you are a little apprehensive about a shoot, would you see it as unprofessional to ask to meet beforehand to discuss the finer points i.e. what you are hoping to achieve. I've agreed to a TFP shoot with an experienced and established photographer in Melbourne. I've heard good things about me but I have a few question marks about things said over emails and I would feel much more comfortable if we met face to face and I got a better idea of who I'd be working with. Is this unreasonable? Why/Why not?

When shooting TFP especially, I arrange the first meeting just before the shoot, to sit down, have a drink, review portfolios and samples, talk about tastes and concepts. If you're on the same page - then go do the shoot. If not - then go your own ways. Of 50+ TFPCD shoots in the past year, no one has yet not gone ahead with the shoot. But the models know that they can bale-out without hassle if they get uncomfortable, a freedom they enjoy. Even models travelling in from out of town have the opportunity of meeting and talking first.

I often arrange the first meeting at a coffee shop nearby or at a centrally located professional studio.  This arrangement has always worked the best of any I've tried, and has almost eliminated no-shows. And it's all the more important with novice models.

Visual E wrote:
...I arrange the first meeting just before the shoot, to sit down, have a drink, review portfolios and samples, talk about tastes and concepts. If you're on the same page - then go do the shoot. If not - then go your own ways.

See. This is why the whole idea of a pre-meeting for TFP is a waste of time (for me). This isn't a criticism towards you, or anyone else that insists on pre-meetings as a sort of photography and modeling tradition. But, if I see a model who strikes me as photogenic, and I'm interested enough to go and look at her port and see what kind of work she's done. If she has the range I'm looking for, provides an adequate bio enough for me to understand her direction then, that's all I need, in addition to her interest to work with me.

Don't models perform the same kind of analysis with a photographer? They see his/her photography work, and either pick out their lighting technique, range, experience, credits or, all of the above, and decide to shoot with him/her?

How much of a discussion about tastes and concepts needs to be discussed at a pre-meeting that wasn't already determined by an online portfolio review and covered on the phone, or e-mail? Sometimes, just by looking at each other's portfolios and reading their About Me sections, it's a no-brainer what the model or photographer needs to add. I use that knowledge sometimes (not consistently), in my introductory e-mail to the model. I dunno. Seems logical to me.

I see TFP/CD ops as a way to freestyle your photography and technique beyond the traditional and professional photography you do on a business basis. Isn't that the whole point of TFP/CD, besides trying to build a book up with better and better quality images?

VirtuaMike wrote:
Regardless of whether it's TFP or not, the more you invest in a shoot the better the results. Meeting first and getting past the awkward initial encounter does wonders.

I dunno. The more and more I read your bolded and underlined statement, the more and more I feel that only single-status and non-professional people with a "date mentality", suffer from that "awkward initial encounter". Isn't that what single people do, "Encounter each other"? Maybe, photography is the only way some can get close to a babe/date to begin with? (Note: non-professional = not a business of any kind. Single-status = not in a relationship).

By the way Mikey. Was yours, a professional opinion, or an attempt to "one-up and supercede", my previous and professional opinion? You seem to like doing that. Coming off as some kinda Chinese know-it-all with a Calculus in one hand, digital camera in the other, and a Black Belt in Photography and Modeling (I'm a tenth Chinese and born a few days before Bruce Lee. So I feel like I can talk shit comfortably and not give a flying fuck if I offend anyone). If I recall, you wrote that you're just doing it for fun. I actually do it as a business and for profit, and many of your opinions on these kinds of topics just doesn't have a lot of bearing on the reality as I see and experience it. Maybe, it works on the University chicks you "awkwardly encounter", on campus, but probably not so with the women I've worked with. Maybe, when I become single and start sniffing around for some pussy, I might understand better where the fuck you're come from with some of your arrogant comments (many of them I personally set you up for).

Until then, for me, and possibly a whole lot of other serious photographers out there, there's no such thing as an "awkward initial encounter" with models we worked with and choose to work with. Simply because, if we meet, it's to work the craft of photography and modeling, with a goal in mind -- better images. Not, expose each other to our naked privates, point at them, giggle a bit and swap spit for the first time.

Of course, I'm not implying you're like that in real life, but the words you wrote up there, certainly gives me that kind of impression.

"Regardless of whether it's TFP or not"

Really? Why "regardless"? Pretty strong statement for someone just doing photography for fun.

"Meeting first and getting past the awkward initial encounter does wonders."

Really? How so? In what way does it do "wonders"? What kind of "wonders", are you talking about here, that you couldn't derive from seeing her online images for the first time, and through an initial e-mail and, or phone conversation?

Caspers Creations wrote:
I always encourage a model that I havent worked with to meet with me a day or so before the shoot....especially in a TFP situation.   It's a good chance to go over the details of the shot, what everyones expectations are, and also a chance for me to see the model eye to eye and observe her mannerisms.

I think it's a good idea.......especially if your feeling at all uneasy.  No need wasting time or film trying to get comfortable around each other the day of.

Ditto -

Of course, a meeting doesn't always happen but when it does, I've never felt it to be a waste of time -

FWIW -

Bill Ballard
Blue Water Photography
Savannah, GA
[email protected]

J.K. Perez, Sr. wrote:
How much of a discussion about tastes and concepts needs to be discussed at a pre-meeting that wasn't already determined by an online portfolio review and covered on the phone, or e-mail? Sometimes, just by looking at each other's portfolios and reading their About Me sections, it's a no-brainer what the model or photographer needs to add. I use that knowledge sometimes (not consistently), in my introductory e-mail to the model. I dunno. Seems logical to me.

There's more to it than that when you just met someone on the internet. The internet carrys an enormous stigma that has to be overcome. The fact that you "met" on the internet already makes you a suspect. There's the "Russian Trawler Captain" syndrome to overcome. That's where the person you've been having this great ongoing correspondence with turns out to be a bored fisherman stuck out at sea. The same goes for meeting through "want ads" and talking on the phone.

You have to meet people face to face. Face time. You get the visual dynamic element meeting in person that you'll never get from talking to your monitor. You can see how relaxed they are and what their mana is like.

Oddly enough you don't get the same problems when people walk into your studio from off the street or when referred.

Kelly Kooper wrote:
If you are a little apprehensive about a shoot, would you see it as unprofessional to ask to meet beforehand to discuss the finer points i.e. what you are hoping to achieve. I've agreed to a TFP shoot with an experienced and established photographer in Melbourne. I've heard good things about me but I have a few question marks about things said over emails and I would feel much more comfortable if we met face to face and I got a better idea of who I'd be working with. Is this unreasonable? Why/Why not?

Always rely on you gut feeling and meeting first is a rule you should always stick to as much as you can.
The only times I do not meet the model before a shoot is if I go thru an agency.

Visual E wrote:
...You have to meet people face to face. ...

I can agree to everything you wrote in your response only because I've worked in several industries from bottom to top (since the age of 13), and learned to understand the dynamic differences between engaging a person, on and offline as time marched on and experience accumulated. Like I wrote previously, I've been at this a long time. I can pretty much tell when someone is just floating around in the void (or puppeteered by a string master, i.e. Model Manager). Still, there are times when I'll engage just to see if there really is a purpose since profiles can be fronted in so many creative and clever ways. And yet, still, there are a clever bunch of people out there who are so clever that it's impossible to tell (mostly with amateurs and beginners), if they are serious about pursuing long term goals in modeling, or will suddenly disappear off the face of the earth after a handful of shoots. One really can't tell about that, but since I'm just the photographer and not the agency, I don't have a whole helluva lot in stake if she cancels on the spot.

After all this time, I'm just of the mind that (using the principle of a studio walk-in), that it's at this crucial and critical moment, when model and photographer meet for the first time, on the day and time of the shoot, that the model can get an instant bad vibe and decide not to pursue it after all. I've gotten impressions from several young and aspiring models that this is something they never thought they could actually do without causing ill consequence on their budding modeling careers. There's a professional and dignified way to do it of course.

On the flip side, it can be the same for photographers, but I understand how some photographers don't want to be in that position, to tell a model right then and there that the shoot is a no-go. But the way I see it, if you avoid those kinds of situations, then you're just denying yourself the important stuff that's good for personal and professional development, which has a lot to do with interpersonal communications and is vital for anyone in, or currently pursuing running their own business.

One model told me that she went to a shoot, got a bad vibe and finished the shoot anyway. I asked her if she even considered cancelling the shoot on the spot as soon as she was asked to take her shirt off, and she said no, and I asked, "How come? Why not? That is something you can do without ill consequence to your modeling aspirations and, or career. You've got a justifiable reason that has a lot to do with your personal safety and comfort". That, and the fact going topless wasn't even covered in any previous conversation. So, any meeting you might've had prior to the shoot was really a waste of time.

It's like going to buy a car. One can tell the high-pressure salesman, "No, that's okay. I won't buy the car after all. Thanks anyway", and leave the dealer's show room floor without worrying the Salesman is gonna go after you and chop your head off. The same principle can be applied at a shoot. Especially, a TFP shoot. So, really, I just don't get the need for a pre-meeting on a consistent basis with every model that tags your port, or whose port you tag.

Time is already a commodity for everyone involved. If communications is structured  properly, the response you get back, or the lack of it, would almost guarantee who the Captains are, from the soldiers who actually do the grunt work.

I mean, it's one of the reasons all of us put a lot of effort into putting good quality images in our respective portfolios. Correct? What's the point in doing it when every shoot is going to consist of a paranoid model?

Maybe, it would help if someone were to define for the models what being an established photographer really means and looks like because, I've got a strong feeling that when they know and understand this, there'll be a whole helluva lot less paranoia going around.

Kelly Kooper wrote:
If you are a little apprehensive about a shoot, would you see it as unprofessional to ask to meet beforehand to discuss the finer points i.e. what you are hoping to achieve. I've agreed to a TFP shoot with an experienced and established photographer in Melbourne. I've heard good things about me but I have a few question marks about things said over emails and I would feel much more comfortable if we met face to face and I got a better idea of who I'd be working with. Is this unreasonable? Why/Why not?

Well, in my own view, it depends. Many of the ladies I work with live a substantial distance,  away from me, so advance meetings are not really possible. But for those living closer, I always sugggest, but do not require, a meeting in advance of the shoot. But ... the meeting will be at my place, where we will be shooting. Don't ask me to travel an hour to a city I'm not familiar with, to a restaurant or cofffee shop I may or may not be able to find, to meet with a model who  may or may not show up.

I've found meetings to be helpful, but I can do the same thing by chatting for a half hour before we begin shoting. By meeting at my place, the model has a chance to see where we will be shooting which I've also found to be of help.

Kelly Kooper wrote:
If you are a little apprehensive about a shoot, would you see it as unprofessional to ask to meet beforehand to discuss the finer points i.e. what you are hoping to achieve. I've agreed to a TFP shoot with an experienced and established photographer in Melbourne. I've heard good things about me but I have a few question marks about things said over emails and I would feel much more comfortable if we met face to face and I got a better idea of who I'd be working with. Is this unreasonable? Why/Why not?

I always try and meet in a public place (coffee shop)before a shoot, that way we can go over the details of the shoot and the model can get a feel for me. Although I am not a bad person or perv if the model got a bad vibe from me I would not expect her to shoot with me and then she could just decline and leave.

Kelly Kooper wrote:
I would feel much more comfortable if we met face to face and I got a better idea of who I'd be working with. Is this unreasonable? Why/Why not?

Great idea. Especially if the photographer is cute.