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I want my naked pictures back
Every once in awhile a model contacts me, perhaps a year or two after her photo shoot, and asks me to take her pictures off my website. Usually included is an explanation about a new boyfriend, new job or whatever, and a plea that people seeing pictures of her naked will now cause her trouble. I pay all my models, and every model signs an agreement before her photo shoot stating clearly that the pictures are taken for public exhibition and sale. However I've always been a nice guy and taken down pictures when the request came honestly. But recently a model asked me to take down her pictures, and she lied to me totally. She tried to claim a verbal agreement between us that I wouldn't post pictures that I took of her some while ago, a totally untrue claim. This model has recently removed her profiles from several modeling websites and has signed an exclusive agreement with one adult website. I suspect that she lied on her adult website agreement and claimed to have never posted public nudes before, and to back up that lie she is now trying to cover her tracks. That is my suspicion, but I've no real collaboration of it. What do you fellow Model Mayhem friends think is fair? Would you say business is business and a contract is a contract and that the pictures stay up? Would you offer to take them down on the condition that she buys them back? Or would you just take the pictures down, kick the dog and swear off models forever? Mar 22 06 11:52 pm Link like you if I would remove photos if asked nicely. I did a spread(intended) for a mens magazine and the model changed her mind - her Mom objected - so I destroyed the photos. but when you are being flim flammed - another story. Unless the photos were making me money I would remove them! Mar 22 06 11:57 pm Link Quite honestly, if I was in your position, and this model lied to you/the pictures are beneficial to your career, I would leave them up. I would also contact the model and say that the pictures are staying up, an agreement in writing is legally binding, and had she not tried to lie to you, you would have been more willing to discuss taking them down. On the other hand, if you don't want to deal with a bunch of fuss, then I would ask her to pay for them. It's really about how much they are worth it to you. Sorry you had such shyte experience(s). Mar 22 06 11:57 pm Link If a model signs a release that's it. Personally, unless I was personal friends with her or something I wouldn't take them down. An agreement is an agreement, and these are things the model should be thinking before signing a release or even getting into modeling in the first place. Obviously, I'd make an exception if the model was being stalked or something, but ordinarily I wouldn't take them down. Besides, I never post the name of the models (unless they want me to) so there's very little chance of anyone who knows the model actually seeing the photos anyway. -P- Mar 22 06 11:58 pm Link Heavens sake, dont kick the dog. Do you have proof other than a suspicion toward this adult website and model? If you paid the model and they signed a release, you should be able to continue to display the photographs regardless of who they are dating. Mar 22 06 11:59 pm Link You paid these girls and now they want you to take em down? Oh hell no- have them refund your money and pay you your rate. Just to clarify- you feel like you should be a nice guy- my feeling is it wasnt nice of her to even ask you without her offering a full refund and to compensate you. She sees you as a sucker. Dont let her run ya ragged. Mar 22 06 11:59 pm Link Time is money, and if she wants them back, I would charge her a good some for them. You paid good money to get them, it;s only fair that you are compensated now that she wants them back. I think it's great that you have been so accomodating to other models, but this girl has crossed the line, and I would forget the nice guy routine and stick strictly to the business deal. Mar 23 06 12:06 am Link You basically have two obligations, one moral and one legal. From a legal standpoint provided she has money it is possible she could make your life miserable, sure you would more than likely prevail in the end provided you hired the right council and went spent your own funds. With both parties throwing good money down the drain. Trust me only the attorneys make money :-) Morally it is a simple issue of treating people how you would like to be treated. If you can sleep well at night after someone makes a request because she may be bothered about something she did - Don't worry. If your a successful photographer a few request like this are not going to change your status. Some things are much more important than money. When dealing with young ladies, many will do things that they may regret later in life. If your a stand up person when asked help if you can. Frank Attorney at Law / Photographer Mar 23 06 12:47 am Link i say to pretty much tell her to eff off. lol. she signed that agreement and knew what she was signing at the time. let her know her options. which is pretty much she pays you for the pix and your fee if she wants them down. if not o well they stay up. she should have never taken the pix if she was to just change her mind for nereason. Mar 23 06 01:09 am Link I remove pictures at the request of the models. Nothing I do is about money and I don't pay cash to my models so as far as I'm concerned if they change their minds later and the pictures could hurt them, I remove them from the web and won't show them under any circumstances. I do keep all negatives as part of my work. To me nothing is worth hurting a model for. As far as some fraud scheme - that's never happened to me, but if it did, I'm pretty sure the above wouldn't apply. -Don Mar 23 06 01:19 am Link lying negates any need for you being a nice guy, i to have destroyed or handed over shots when asked and supplied with a good reason ,after all we work together, as soon as the bs kicks in all bets are off, as a late note this sounds very much like someone i had shoots planned with. Mar 23 06 01:20 am Link I take them down/stop sending them out for submission; there is an exception however...don't screw with me. If the model wants me to treat her like a lady, she best treat me like a gentleman. One out of town model I worked with was fine the 1st time out; paid shoot, plus airfare, and lodging: got some great stuff. The 2nd time I flew her in with same deal. Then in my studio right after makeup she announces to me " I'm not doing any nudes at all." OK, so I shoot a bunch of lingerie, and stuff paid her an sent her on her way . I then began a campaign to sell the living daylights out of the previous sets to any magazine that would take them. Several months later I got an email from said model as to why she was all over the place. The reply was " Well, you decided after knowning fully what the work entailed to come anyway, and screw with me. I'm just trying to makeup the money I lost on the 2nd photshoot due to your antics." Paul Mar 23 06 01:34 am Link Afablb wrote: Another perfect world / real world question... the perfect world you have a written agreement and both sides would not infringe the rights of the other. The real world you have a person who should she wish to create personal issues for you, she may just be able to do that. And you have to look yourself in the mirror as well. Mar 23 06 01:38 am Link phcorcoran wrote: D. Brian Nelson wrote: See there? Don has a very good attitude and is sweet and considerate. I think it's very touching that he says "nothing is worth hurting a model for." Mar 23 06 01:45 am Link I have walked this road on a couple of occasions with models who, for various reasons wished to have their pics removed. I have complied willingly with those who have been straight up, and unwillingly with a couple, just because I didn't have much to lose. In the case of the latter, I retain all negatives, and reserve the right to display again at a later date simply because they were not honest with me, and I have doubts about their motives. One had a slightly different story in each of several emails, and one offered veiled threats about trashing my reputation with other models. (an empty threat, my rep is better than hers...) ;o) I am a reasonable man, and tend to be very sympathetic, but falsehoods and threats do not sit well with me, especially when I have a signed release and receipts for money paid. I would say that unless you have a serious financial stake in the images, let it go and move on, but hold on to your materials. The images are yours. You paid for them. If there is gold in them thar pics, dig deeper and find out whether or not you are being jerked. Mar 23 06 02:01 am Link Eric Muss-Barnes wrote: Did you miss the last part of my post? Mar 23 06 02:13 am Link Not only a photographer is responsible for doing nudes shoots of a model, the model agrees to shoot them and should think carefully over what she does and what effects it could have on her and if she still can stand up for what she did in a near or distant future. Too few people think about it and try to make much money in a short time and regret it afterwards. If you paid the model for photos that you can´t use anymore cause of a new boyfriend, new job, whatever she should at least give you the money back. That´s just fair. If it was a TFP and she asks friendly (no lies about the reasons etc. like the one model you told of) I think the fewest photographers would decline to remove them. Mar 23 06 02:14 am Link Afablb wrote: Frank, I am not picking on you..just disagreeing.. Mar 23 06 06:12 am Link phcorcoran wrote: Remove them, they wount make or break you,be the better person Mar 23 06 07:36 am Link hey, she signed the release giving you the copyright. its up to her buy the pictures if she wants them badly enough! Mar 23 06 07:43 am Link phcorcoran wrote: If you are really worried about (not) displaying an image set with one model and how that will effect you in the grand scheme of things you have much bigger problems as a photographer. Mar 23 06 07:53 am Link area291 wrote: Thank you for finally saying that. Mar 23 06 08:00 am Link area291 wrote: Just to be clear: I didn't ask "What should I do?" I asked, what do you others think is fair? I delt with the problem several weeks before posting my question, then simplified the story a bit and posted it to elicit general discussion on the topic. Mar 23 06 08:03 am Link area291 wrote: Yet, he also doesn't want to send the message out that he is a pushover. You can't keep paying models only to have them ask you to remove the photos later on. That's just not good business. Mar 23 06 08:04 am Link Thats y models need to read the contract! And dont pose nude if you're gonna regret later! I say leave them up and tell her too bad she signed a contract! Mar 23 06 08:10 am Link Claire Elizabeth wrote: A release is not needed to give a photographer copyright. The photographer has copyright as soon as the shutter button is pressed. Even if the model buys the photos, the photographer still owns the copyright and can control the useage of the photos. Mar 23 06 08:11 am Link I guess the big question is this.... are the shots you took of her that good? I mean, if they are good but you have plenty of images as good or better....just take hers down. You have your agreement....if she becomes a big Playboy bunnie or porn star, you can always seek you revenge by selling the images on line at a later date. :-) Mar 23 06 08:16 am Link A few of my thoughts: 1) You paid her. Which means she provided you with a service. Her service was to pose for you and she also elected to pose nude for you. That's what she was paid for. Now, I agree with others in this forum that maybe a buyout is the correct approach. Even though she signed a release we as people have to understand that things do change. Imagine getting pulled over for speeding. Sometimes your house really is on fire and the officer grants you a freebie and maybe even an escort. Now, I think she should have been honest with you. However, we still have to consider that some people lack the ability to really tell you what's going on. Maybe that boyfriend of hers is thumping her in the head because of the pictures but she's too ashamed to tell you. Or, maybe she's a Sunday School teacher now but doesn't want to tip her hand for fear that she might be exploited. She could be a mother now or had a life changing experience. Either way, I'd take the pictures down. She'd buy me out under our original terms plus what I would have charged for the shoot and my resources used. If her pictures are money makers for you, I'm sure you've got other images doing the same. 2) Models really need to consider what projects and assignments they work. It is very tempting to take everything that comes along, but as my mother always said to me as a child..."Everything that looks good to you ain't good for you." This conversation should be a wakeup call to models to chart your course with wisdom. Same goes for photographers, stylists and MUAs. Filter and sift thoroughly! Don't just take a job because someone asks you to do it. Work to your own benefit! Sometimes we are so caught up in eating our one fish that we don't realize we could be exploring the lake with our own pole and bait. Enjoy what you do!!! Much Love, Mr. Jay Mar 23 06 08:19 am Link sounds like your a good guy and only you stand to lose in these situations. If she becomes a great adult star your pictures would be worth a lot more. Would u put them back up. I guess if u sleep better @ night that what matters. I guess. umm uh the ones u took don't uuhhh ahhhh can I have them LOL just kidding * no really Mar 23 06 08:21 am Link Afablb wrote: I completely agree with this! Mar 23 06 08:24 am Link After reading all the responses - two thoughts: When I work with a model posing nude, I sit down and have a long talk explaining what we're doing, what's going to happen and how the stuff is going to be used. I explain that I only post identifyable images on the 'net with the model's permission, however, I can make no guarantees what they will be used for and where they will end up if I should sell them. I tell them that once the release is signed, that's it. If you come back crying two years from now, it will cost you to get the images back. I will not 'be a nice guy' and just take them down and stop using them. I often get accused of trying to talk models out of posing nude - which may be true, but then in seven years of doing this I haven't had someone come back to me crying (I had a new Lawyer-boyfriend try, but that's another story). Which leads to my second thought - what if she bought a car? Can she take it back in a year because she doesn't like, or even a week later because her Dad doesn't like it and get her money back. Hell no, she'll be laughted out of the dealership. What is a stock photo she made ended up getting used for a condom add or what if she modeled willingly for it and got paid - where would she be? She signed a legal agreement, and like any other legal agreement, it's the law that she has to live up to her end of it. She did a job, got paid, and that's the end of it. Leave 'em up and sleep good my friend. Joel Mar 23 06 08:27 am Link Apfel Photography wrote: Although some of my photographs of that particular model, who I photographed nude on several occasions I may add, are among my favorites, I would have taken them down without question if she had been honest with me instead of falsely claiming we had a verbal agreement contrary to our written agreement. Apfel Photography wrote: Actually the agreement, which I wrote myself, forbids that. I wrote expressly into the agreement that the photos were taken for use in my promoting my business and career and that any other commercial use requires separate agreement and compensation. Mar 23 06 08:28 am Link While that was very nice of you and maybe a good thing to do to avoid trouble it also sets a type of policy both in your mind and to any model who might know or hear about what you did. She thinks I change my mind later for any reason and he will remove my photos. What if a magazine were to consider using them what if a website were? I expect people to stand by their choices. If you decide a few days later you don't want those nudes shown. I'll take them down after you refund all the money paid to you and my photo fee. I may charge a smaller amount but it shouldn't be as easy as I call and or threaten you and you crumble(not that the OP did) If she is on a adult web site she would have to pay more as I would feel I was good enough for you to work with and collect my cash but now you want things your way no matter what we agreed to. The thing to me is this. I will respond twice to a e-mail. I will listen to your point and explain mine but I won't argue. If we have a agreement I would expect any adult to stick to it or pay for my time, effort and the fact that you want to break our deal. Mar 23 06 08:31 am Link You should be compensated if you are to break your contract in favor of the other party. The model should pay you a one-time fee to break the previous contract and draft a new one saying you will no longer post or publicly display nude images of her anywhere, anytime. Mar 23 06 08:36 am Link a contract is a contract....if there are moral reasons why---you can and should consider. If their reasons are business...sell your contractual rights or license them to her or her business partners...that's the way it's done. LOL again, that's why I am an anal advocate that "models" should either have legitimate representation or know enough about the business (FOR REAL) BEFORE calling themselves a "model" and letting someone shoot their pix...... show business is the "business of show"...BUSINESS Mar 23 06 08:40 am Link This is a good example of a situation where the desire to do the right thing conflicts with what is morally and contractually right. In the mainstream do you think that Calvin Klein will take down a topless billboard of a model because she changes her mind? The problem is that in communities like MM, we are more than models/photographers, we are, to some degree friends. We want to do right by each other even when doing right for the other is wrong for ourselves. I don't know the answer. I am as guilty as many. Many times I have taken down or not used photos at the request of a model. It is bad business but it is the morality under which we tend to do business. Perhaps that is one of the reasons the net is not well respected by the mainstream. A contract is a contract until someone changes their mind. Mar 23 06 08:41 am Link Offer the pictures for sale to the adult site she signed on to!!! Or sell them to her. Or, send prints to her dad under seperate cover of darkness!! Be nice to nice, the rest can sort it out on their own. Have fun, take pictures. Mar 23 06 08:48 am Link Eric S. wrote: Yup. Mar 23 06 09:31 am Link elisabeth1986 wrote: harsh for a lady! Mar 23 06 09:37 am Link New twist... What if the shoot was TFP/TFCD? Now the plot thickens... Mar 23 06 09:39 am Link |
