Photographer
Anre
Posts: 5
Chicago, Illinois, US
I bet the person that came up with that whole TFP/TFCD thing didnt have to buy photography equipement or rent studio space.
Photographer
Pat Thielen
Posts: 16800
Hastings, Minnesota, US
I did. I admit it. Sorry.
Photographer
Anre
Posts: 5
Chicago, Illinois, US
Model
Sabrina Couture
Posts: 20
Toronto, Iowa, US
Pat Thielen wrote:
I did. I admit it. Sorry. haha!
Photographer
Rp-photo
Posts: 42711
Houston, Texas, US
I came up with the idea along with my wife, Morgan Fairchild.
Yeah, that's the ticket!
Photographer
00siris
Posts: 19182
New York, New York, US
Anre wrote:
I bet the person that came up with that whole TFP/TFCD thing didnt have to buy photography equipement or rent studio space. I bet he/she did -
It's not the notion of TFP that's the problem. It's this new paradigm of internet models/photographers.
Photographer
Anre
Posts: 5
Chicago, Illinois, US
Photographer
BTHPhoto
Posts: 6985
Fairbanks, Alaska, US
It's called barter, and it was invented long before photography equipment existed. In principle, it's very logical: I have, or can produce or acquire, something you want; you have, or can produce or acquire, something I want. We negotiate and work out an agreeable quantity of each, and, voila, we have a trade. It's a wonderful system that served humanity well for centuries.
Then photographers came on the scene. They can't produce their work without models. However they also have the most enormous egos in the history of mankind, and that ego tells them it's simply ridiculous to propose that any lowly model's time could possibly be comparable to their precious skill and talent as a photographer. That extra ingredient made it very difficult to work out an agreeable trade and conduct a smooth barter, so they invented a special barter system just for photographers and models and named it TFP. Time for Prints, or Trade for Prints, which ever you like the T to stand for doesn't matter. What's important is that the model is trading his/her time only for the prints, not for the photographer's precious photographic skills (what a laughable concept - that a model's contribution could valued on the same scale as a photographers!).
That worked well for many (and still does for a few photographers who's ego will never be adequate to support the title of professional), but then some photographers who's egos were even grander than average got wind of it and declared it an affront to capitalism, a scourge to the art, an insult to the industry. They deemed that anyone who engaged in the nasty practice of TFP not a real photogrpher and any model who worked with him was not a real model.
For a time, then, there was a schism in photography. There were professional photographers who worked with agency models, charged the client for it, and scoffed at the rest. There were amature photographers and artists who worked with amature and part time models, often, but not always, engaging in that nasty practice of TFP :shudder:!
Then came the internet, the great equalizer. Models and photographers from all walks of life could communicate on equal ground. Those who engaged in the nasty practice came to the attention of those who were disgusted by it, and the class wars began again. Once again, those with the grandest egos delcared TFP to be an affront to capitalism a scourge to the art, and an insult to the industry. They invented a name - GWC for those who engaged in the nasty practice of TFP. They even claimed that those scrupulous souls engaging in the nasty practice were stealing food from their childrens' mouths.
But the numbers of those who believed in the ancient system of barter was overwhelming, and it became obvious that shame and ridicule would not kill it, so they belittled models who engaged in TFP and tried to shame them into stopping the practice. Alas, that tactic also backfired, because the models said "fine, pay me." Then both the grand egos and the shameful TFPers (who's egos weren't quite so grand, but still grand enough to be a photographer) cried foul. How DARE a model expect to be paid! This just couldn't be! What do they think, that they're our equals?
OK, I'm bored now, so I'll sum it up. No one invented TFP. It's a logical extension of an age old practice. Egos bastardized that simple, effective system to the point that it rarely works smoothly. If you like it, use it. If you don't, don't. Try eliminating egos from the equation and focusing on creativity and collaboration and you'll be surprised how smoothly it can work.
Photographer
Malameel
Posts: 1087
Dallas, Texas, US
I invented the barter system... in a previous life but still hold the patent. Mark 
Photographer
Ascending Phoenix
Posts: 418
Lexington, Kentucky, US
Tim Hammond wrote:
It's called barter, and it was invented long before photography equipment existed. In principle, it's very logical: I have, or can produce or acquire, something you want; you have, or can produce or acquire, something I want. We negotiate and work out an agreeable quantity of each, and, voila, we have a trade. It's a wonderful system that served humanity well for centuries.
Then photographers came on the scene. They can't produce their work without models. However they also have the most enormous egos in the history of mankind, and that ego tells them it's simply ridiculous to propose that any lowly model's time could possibly be comparable to their precious skill and talent as a photographer. That extra ingredient made it very difficult to work out an agreeable trade and conduct a smooth barter, so they invented a special barter system just for photographers and models and named it TFP. Time for Prints, or Trade for Prints, which ever you like the T to stand for doesn't matter. What's important is that the model is trading his/her time only for the prints, not for the photographer's precious photographic skills (what a laughable concept - that a model's contribution could valued on the same scale as a photographers!).
That worked well for many (and still does for a few photographers who's ego will never be adequate to support the title of professional), but then some photographers who's egos were even grander than average got wind of it and declared it an affront to capitalism, a scourge to the art, an insult to the industry. They deemed that anyone who engaged in the nasty practice of TFP not a real photogrpher and any model who worked with him was not a real model.
For a time, then, there was a schism in photography. There were professional photographers who worked with agency models, charged the client for it, and scoffed at the rest. There were amature photographers and artists who worked with amature and part time models, often, but not always, engaging in that nasty practice of TFP :shudder:!
Then came the internet, the great equalizer. Models and photographers from all walks of life could communicate on equal ground. Those who engaged in the nasty practice came to the attention of those who were disgusted by it, and the class wars began again. Once again, those with the grandest egos delcared TFP to be an affront to capitalism a scourge to the art, and an insult to the industry. They invented a name - GWC for those who engaged in the nasty practice of TFP. They even claimed that those scrupulous souls engaging in the nasty practice were stealing food from their childrens' mouths.
But the numbers of those who believed in the ancient system of barter was overwhelming, and it became obvious that shame and ridicule would not kill it, so they belittled models who engaged in TFP and tried to shame them into stopping the practice. Alas, that tactic also backfired, because the models said "fine, pay me." Then both the grand egos and the shameful TFPers (who's egos weren't quite so grand, but still grand enough to be a photographer) cried foul. How DARE a model expect to be paid! This just couldn't be! What do they think, that they're our equals?
OK, I'm bored now, so I'll sum it up. No one invented TFP. It's a logical extension of an age old practice. Egos bastardized that simple, effective system to the point that it rarely works smoothly. If you like it, use it. If you don't, don't. Try eliminating egos from the equation and focusing on creativity and collaboration and you'll be surprised how smoothly it can work. ******** BINGO *********
And now you all know..THE REST OF THE STORY ...
And I tip my hat to the talented ladies that have worked with me..and aloowed us BOTH to CREATE our images..
Good night...God Bless and dont forget to wear a rubber
Photographer
Jack D Trute
Posts: 4558
New York, New York, US
Ascending Phoenix wrote:
******** BINGO *********
And now you all know..THE REST OF THE STORY ...
And I tip my hat to the talented ladies that have worked with me..and aloowed us BOTH to CREATE our images..
Good night...God Bless and dont forget to wear a rubber Ah, bull crap.
TFP has become such a perverted term that the connection with barter is no longer there.
People expect too much from each other and it has nothing to do with an honest exchange of goods or services.
I have a list of those who asses I want to kick and the top two are.
1. Who thought up the idea of working for a living.
2. Who ever thought up TFP
(And if you did not know Bull crap is some mighty big crap)
Photographer
BTHPhoto
Posts: 6985
Fairbanks, Alaska, US
Jack D Trute wrote:
TFP has become such a perverted term that the connection with barter is no longer there.
People expect too much from each other and it has nothing to do with an honest exchange of goods or services. That's what I said. Take the egos out and it's generally fixed.
Photographer
S D Light Productions
Posts: 106
San Diego, California, US
So what ever happened just having fun doing something you like???
How come money and the term professional always seem to enter into the equation.
TFP/TFCD seems like such a cool thing... but it gets so scrunched up with fine print.
Photographer
Merlyn Magic Photo
Posts: 4361
Long Beach, California, US
Tim Hammond wrote:
It's called barter, and it was invented long before photography equipment existed. In principle, it's very logical: I have, or can produce or acquire, something you want; you have, or can produce or acquire, something I want. We negotiate and work out an agreeable quantity of each, and, voila, we have a trade. It's a wonderful system that served humanity well for centuries.
Then photographers came on the scene. They can't produce their work without models. However they also have the most enormous egos in the history of mankind, and that ego tells them it's simply ridiculous to propose that any lowly model's time could possibly be comparable to their precious skill and talent as a photographer. That extra ingredient made it very difficult to work out an agreeable trade and conduct a smooth barter, so they invented a special barter system just for photographers and models and named it TFP. Time for Prints, or Trade for Prints, which ever you like the T to stand for doesn't matter. What's important is that the model is trading his/her time only for the prints, not for the photographer's precious photographic skills (what a laughable concept - that a model's contribution could valued on the same scale as a photographers!).
That worked well for many (and still does for a few photographers who's ego will never be adequate to support the title of professional), but then some photographers who's egos were even grander than average got wind of it and declared it an affront to capitalism, a scourge to the art, an insult to the industry. They deemed that anyone who engaged in the nasty practice of TFP not a real photogrpher and any model who worked with him was not a real model.
For a time, then, there was a schism in photography. There were professional photographers who worked with agency models, charged the client for it, and scoffed at the rest. There were amature photographers and artists who worked with amature and part time models, often, but not always, engaging in that nasty practice of TFP :shudder:!
Then came the internet, the great equalizer. Models and photographers from all walks of life could communicate on equal ground. Those who engaged in the nasty practice came to the attention of those who were disgusted by it, and the class wars began again. Once again, those with the grandest egos delcared TFP to be an affront to capitalism a scourge to the art, and an insult to the industry. They invented a name - GWC for those who engaged in the nasty practice of TFP. They even claimed that those scrupulous souls engaging in the nasty practice were stealing food from their childrens' mouths.
But the numbers of those who believed in the ancient system of barter was overwhelming, and it became obvious that shame and ridicule would not kill it, so they belittled models who engaged in TFP and tried to shame them into stopping the practice. Alas, that tactic also backfired, because the models said "fine, pay me." Then both the grand egos and the shameful TFPers (who's egos weren't quite so grand, but still grand enough to be a photographer) cried foul. How DARE a model expect to be paid! This just couldn't be! What do they think, that they're our equals? Love it, this should be stolen and posted around the net to sum up the photo wars!
Tim Hammond wrote:
OK, I'm bored now, so I'll sum it up. No one invented TFP. It's a logical extension of an age old practice. Egos bastardized that simple, effective system to the point that it rarely works smoothly. If you like it, use it. If you don't, don't. Try eliminating egos from the equation and focusing on creativity and collaboration and you'll be surprised how smoothly it can work. Hell, here you ended it too quickly, such a cruel wrap, thought you could have made a trilogy at least
Photographer
Jack D Trute
Posts: 4558
New York, New York, US
Tim Hammond wrote:
That's what I said. Take the egos out and it's generally fixed. Okay good, I am in my human body and reading and comprehension is not the bodies strong point.
Glad you said it.
Photographer
D. Brian Nelson
Posts: 5477
Rapid City, South Dakota, US
When I started shooting professionally about 20 years ago "testing" was already an old, old established practice. The model might get polaroids or even a few prints for showing up and modeling. Every photographer did it. Go look at any of the photo books, including the famous "Nudi." All were done by testing. D'Orazio didn't pay all those famous models. Newton's books are filled with models who were happy with a polaroid, as are Bisang's "Exposure" and damned near every other book of the type.
These guys had all the photo equipment they ever could want, and they tested. Every photographer today "tests" except, amazingly, "test photographers" who charge to "test" and have models referred by their bookers. That twisted usage of the word "test" contributed to the web use of "TFP" etc.
And "TFP" and "TFCD" are just easier to explain to models who don't have bookers to tell them to go "test."
It probably started with the deguerrotype or tintype. No one invented it.
-Don
Photographer
TREVOR GODINHO
Posts: 365
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Ascending Phoenix wrote:
and dont forget to wear a rubber exspecially when ur TPCD OR TFP ... can b dangerous to ur health
Photographer
- null -
Posts: 4576
Al Gore.
Right after he invented the Internet.
Photographer
oggie
Posts: 26
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Hello all I just stared up on MM. Already Iâve done some FTP/CD and some paid work (I paid the model). The truth is it work both ways, we take pictures of them and they use our pictures to try and get famous, or known. They use our pictures, and we use their faces, bodies, hair etc. to make our way. I mean no offence to any real professional photographers out there, but renting space and buying equipment, doesnât making you a professional.
Hell I rent space, use friendsâ art galleries, and âborrowâ?/buy equipment and I know I am not a professional. If you would like to get paid for your time and efforts, post it up there along with your âBioâ?. Put up your best stuff and wait for someone who believes your work is worth the cash, and their time is not (remember everyone has to eat). No one is saying that you have to make all your shots FTP/CD.
After all we are all grown people here and if you think your work deserves a little credit, in the form of cash, and not recognition and admiration; then go ahead, go get yours.
Photographer
Bryan Benoit
Posts: 2106
Miami, Florida, US
Stupid question... what is the difference between a "test" and a TFP? I really don't know... it seems as famous photographers 'test' and the rest of us do TFPs but I am sure that is not the real difference...
Photographer
Dreams To Keep
Posts: 585
Novi, Michigan, US
TFP came from people who could reach an agreement between themselves to do something for each other. Yeah, it is barter.
The rest of the disagreeable people bitch about it on the forums.
Photographer
Vito
Posts: 4582
Brooklyn, New York, US
Tim Hammond wrote:
It's called barter, and it was invented long before photography equipment existed. In principle, it's very logical: I have, or can produce or acquire, something you want; you have, or can produce or acquire, something I want. We negotiate and work out an agreeable quantity of each, and, voila, we have a trade. It's a wonderful system that served humanity well for centuries.
yada, yada, yada...
OK, I'm bored now, so I'll sum it up. No one invented TFP. It's a logical extension of an age old practice. Egos bastardized that simple, effective system to the point that it rarely works smoothly. If you like it, use it. If you don't, don't. Try eliminating egos from the equation and focusing on creativity and collaboration and you'll be surprised how smoothly it can work. Have you ever thought of writing Gospels? I see that style in there!
Photographer
BTHPhoto
Posts: 6985
Fairbanks, Alaska, US
Vito wrote:
Have you ever thought of writing Gospels? I see that style in there! No point in writing gospels if your agenda doesn't include selling mythology. I prefer science fiction and fantasy, but I'm too cynical to turn out something people would read. Heinlein is the only one who could pull of that mix.
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 26342
Portland, Oregon, US
Anre wrote:
I bet the person that came up with that whole TFP/TFCD thing didnt have to buy photography equipement or rent studio space. What does this statement imply? Do you mean that models should be paying photographers because photographers have to buy equipment & rent studio space?
Makeup Artist
Beauty4U
Posts: 1862
New York, New York, US
Looknsee Photography wrote:
What does this statement imply? Do you mean that models should be paying photographers because photographers have to buy equipment & rent studio space? Well in that case they should pay me too cos foundation and all of my other "disposable" things dont come free either =P
Photographer
oggie
Posts: 26
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
In short, if you believe that you are something special, and I mean special, there is no need for you to be here. I have talked to many people on this site and I think it is safe to say everyone here is just starting out or trying something new for the1st time in whatever career paths they are making for themselves. Most of this is strictly experimental.
A photographer meets a model, everyone a little nervous, the tension in the room so thick one could cut through it with a machete. The photographer smiles and asks âis this your 1st time?â? to which a tiny laugh accompanies a yes or no from the model. A small nod and human social contact occurs and the act of beautiful picture make begins.
This site makes all those little moments possible everywhere TFP/CD accepted (like visa or mater card). So take what you can, learn from it.
Like my friends and I always say, âThere are 3 types of people in this would, those who can count, and those who canât.â?
Photographer
photographybyfrank
Posts: 455
Clearwater, Florida, US
Tim and Oggie your both right on the money
Photographer
oggie
Posts: 26
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
i'm just happy people understand
Photographer
Carl J Speed II
Posts: 2662
San Antonio, Texas, US
That was awesome. Tim Hammond wrote:
It's called barter, and it was invented long before photography equipment existed. In principle, it's very logical: I have, or can produce or acquire, something you want; you have, or can produce or acquire, something I want. We negotiate and work out an agreeable quantity of each, and, voila, we have a trade. It's a wonderful system that served humanity well for centuries.
Then photographers came on the scene. They can't produce their work without models. However they also have the most enormous egos in the history of mankind, and that ego tells them it's simply ridiculous to propose that any lowly model's time could possibly be comparable to their precious skill and talent as a photographer. That extra ingredient made it very difficult to work out an agreeable trade and conduct a smooth barter, so they invented a special barter system just for photographers and models and named it TFP. Time for Prints, or Trade for Prints, which ever you like the T to stand for doesn't matter. What's important is that the model is trading his/her time only for the prints, not for the photographer's precious photographic skills (what a laughable concept - that a model's contribution could valued on the same scale as a photographers!).
That worked well for many (and still does for a few photographers who's ego will never be adequate to support the title of professional), but then some photographers who's egos were even grander than average got wind of it and declared it an affront to capitalism, a scourge to the art, an insult to the industry. They deemed that anyone who engaged in the nasty practice of TFP not a real photogrpher and any model who worked with him was not a real model.
For a time, then, there was a schism in photography. There were professional photographers who worked with agency models, charged the client for it, and scoffed at the rest. There were amature photographers and artists who worked with amature and part time models, often, but not always, engaging in that nasty practice of TFP :shudder:!
Then came the internet, the great equalizer. Models and photographers from all walks of life could communicate on equal ground. Those who engaged in the nasty practice came to the attention of those who were disgusted by it, and the class wars began again. Once again, those with the grandest egos delcared TFP to be an affront to capitalism a scourge to the art, and an insult to the industry. They invented a name - GWC for those who engaged in the nasty practice of TFP. They even claimed that those scrupulous souls engaging in the nasty practice were stealing food from their childrens' mouths.
But the numbers of those who believed in the ancient system of barter was overwhelming, and it became obvious that shame and ridicule would not kill it, so they belittled models who engaged in TFP and tried to shame them into stopping the practice. Alas, that tactic also backfired, because the models said "fine, pay me." Then both the grand egos and the shameful TFPers (who's egos weren't quite so grand, but still grand enough to be a photographer) cried foul. How DARE a model expect to be paid! This just couldn't be! What do they think, that they're our equals?
OK, I'm bored now, so I'll sum it up. No one invented TFP. It's a logical extension of an age old practice. Egos bastardized that simple, effective system to the point that it rarely works smoothly. If you like it, use it. If you don't, don't. Try eliminating egos from the equation and focusing on creativity and collaboration and you'll be surprised how smoothly it can work.
Photographer
CarlMaiorinoPhotography
Posts: 1078
New York, New York, US
The concept of trading images for time has been around forever...it's the internet that turned it into the mess that it can be sometimes. Still, if all parties involved take it seriously, commercially marketable images can still be created.
Photographer
Vance C McDaniel
Posts: 7609
Los Angeles, California, US
Bob Graham wrote:
So what ever happened just having fun doing something you like???
How come money and the term professional always seem to enter into the equation.
TFP/TFCD seems like such a cool thing... but it gets so scrunched up with fine print. Blame it on the lawyers...LOL
Photographer
Malameel
Posts: 1087
Dallas, Texas, US
The best images I have are all TFP. Anything I have paid for was so uncreative that it was only suitable for stock photography. Granted that is all I needed, but in my humble experience, the paid models were only concerned with when was the check going to be cut and not if the image come out. Then later its "Dude, Where's my CD?"
(CDs are always available for pickup when finished and I ship all out of town disks. Usually the problem is when a model says she will pick it up and then flakes out and then questions me for not pushing her to pick it up... and usually from a model who was an hour late!)
I feel better for venting, thanks,
Mark
Photographer
oggie
Posts: 26
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Mark I Feel and hear your pain!
Photographer
Digital Plus Photo
Posts: 685
Washington, Illinois, US
The truth and nothing but the truth. TFP's/TFCD's was coined and brought about by a rouge "GWC" to get even with evil professional photographers for the way he had been treated. It quickly spread throughout the world. So not you have the truth.
Photographer
DAN DOYLE PHOTOGRAPHY
Posts: 272
Albany, New York, US
I dunno, but tfcd does not pay my mortgage payment, doe it pay yours? LOL!!!!!
"testing" used to be a term given by "THE agencies" for " The AGENCY girls".....
Nowadayzzz...........it has been this perverse new twist and tagged tfcd.......
Everyone and ANYone thinks the world is OWED to them for FREE??????????
getting invited to shoot for a GOOD PRO photogs book free is an exception..... NOT the norm!!!!
I think it was started by some wannabee PRO?????... "photog" with his new digital camera, in some creepy motel room in east pituchville somewhere, offering his services to models at no charge?????
Photographer
images by elahi
Posts: 2523
Atlanta, Georgia, US
youre joking right? LOL the concept of bartering is as old as dirt....as for the usage of bartering in the fashion industry, I would imagine it started when fashion photography started or maybe when photography started and either a model or subject couldnt pay...? Or maybe somewhere along the way in the film/movie industry......
Model
PorchiaCorine
Posts: 702
Portsmouth, Virginia, US
Who cares who came up with it...it helps model and photographer so what is the big deal?
Photographer
oggie
Posts: 26
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
One long beautiful story, two short explanations and a ton of examples....and people still don't get it. If you want to get paid for you pictures, then just say I want to get paid, and if the model/photographer feels it's a good idea then there you have it you get paid. On the other hand, everyone thinks they are "the one" and Iâm not talking about a Jet Li movie. In your bio or what ever simply put, I only work for pay. No one says you have to work for tfp/cd.
Besides if you have a mortgage to pay, why not get a real job....you know doctor, lawyer, teacher, dentist, nurse, marketing exc., car/shoe/door sales person, contractor, cardiologist, radiologist, zoologist, garbage man/woman, construction worker, carpenter, electrician, nutritionist, physiotherapist, anaesthesiologist, surgeon, obstetrician gynaecologist, retail store clerk, â¦â¦and the list continues.
If photography is you âjobâ? then made you should try marketing yourself to other more elaborately extravagant venues, and leave the less capitalistic commodities to those that donât have mortgages to pay? If notâ¦.donât complain about it.
Photographer
RobertWrightPhotography
Posts: 3
Monroe, Louisiana, US
We all have to start somewhere. Models and Photographers alike. That's the whole point of this site. To meet. To mingle. To test out. To try out. We live. We learn. We get better. It's mayhem. Stop the hating!
Photographer
oggie
Posts: 26
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
no hating here, just making some comments
|
