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Can someone explain to me why you give/want....
a "disc of images" after a TFP shoot (or any for that matter)?? I'm not even sure what that means - at least as is discussed on this board? Don't get me wrong, I do understand what is being asked for, I just don't understand why? Every time I've worked with a model it's either been for a project/client of mine (in which case that wasn't asked for) or it was to develop (ie "contribute to") a models portfolio - TFP. In the latter case it was always understood by both myself and the model that all of the work we were doing in prep and at the shoot (and after for that matter) was to obtain the one killer shot for their port. There is always one. There may be a lot of great pics, but there is always one that stands apart. I shot a new model the other day for her port. We went through three looks with a couple of slight variations. I shot about 200 shots (mostly because she was new, but many were essentially duplicate images reshot for various crops). Of this I figured I would come away with three to five really decent portfolio worth images. When I started editing them, this was confirmed. Sure, there were lots of nice pics, but only a few really stood out. This is the editing process and it has always been a part of any work that I do. So, I created some high quality 9x12 prints for the girl for her book and created a small CD of the images at different resolutions and sizes for her web use. She was ecstatic (as has been every model I've worked with) and so far this has never been an issue or even brought up, but it seems based on postings here that that isn't the way it should be done? I would NEVER think to just burn off a disc with all 200+ images? Do other photographers do this??? Matt Mar 10 06 12:19 pm Link alot do. I have walked away with several cds. without asking for them. yesterday I did a TFP and got a cd with over 500 images on it. Maybe they dont want to edit pics and want the models to do it? Hey I would be happy with a few shots that really stand out. but that is just my silly opinion.  Mar 10 06 12:32 pm Link Milage will vary. Many do so because it just gets the monkey off there back. The pressure of needing to do edits for the models or crew is done if they can do it themselves. Many photographer offer CD but not all images. Some just prints. Some just money. It all depends. But if you are shooting often or if your schedual is varied then the ability to ensure quick delivery of images is not always wise or availible. Some photographers like to shoot often within a short amount of time then go back later to edit for their own books. If the models walk away happy or get made somewhat happy in a week that is all that is needed at times to move on. Not every shot or shoot works. Not every shoot is done to the same level. A photographer may be willing to do an easy outside shoot commercial style if they do not have to edit or the needs of the model or crew may be very different than the photographer. So if someone can edit and you can trust them with a basic agreement then it just frees time. Not everyone will like the idea and that is great also. But that is why some people do it. But do not take it as a rule for there is no TF police that will come slap your ass if you do not follow this form or the one of testing or TFP that you are used to. Also many models need new shots but those shots may not make it into a print book but may be fine for the web. Mar 10 06 12:45 pm Link I never release unedited images. It takes me about two weeks to get the edited pics to the model because I have an edit cycle to prevent Photoshop burnout, which can shut me down for a whole month almost. I've had several models be shocked by this, but they were new or had come from very small markets (same thing as being new it seems). Mar 10 06 12:52 pm Link Thanks guys. I guess I don't understand why a model would want unedited images - if in fact they do. For example as I said above, I often shoot the same image repeatedly for different crops, either standards like 9x12/11x14 or for some creative cropping I may have in mind and am experimenting with. Well, if the get the raw images, prior to them actually having been cropped, all of THOSE images will be horribly composed as they were not composed for a standard 35mm frame. Then there are images that might be a little soft, or the model blinked or there are four slight variations of the same headshot... I mean it goes on and on... What use does a model see in having all the unedited photos? Matthew Mar 10 06 01:01 pm Link It seems that Im the very opposite, every photographer that I have worked with always wants to give me a CD I would much rather prefer a couple of great pictures to stick in my portfolio rather than 1000 images that I can do nothing with! I dont know if I should start requiring printed out images and make that part of the agreement, but I just thought that it was standard to give prints anyways! Help me out here!  Mar 10 06 01:05 pm Link I don't give out CDs of all the images... there is really no reason to. I want my best work out there when I give images/prints to a model. That being said, I usually will upload the proofs to a private location on the web, let them pick X number of their favorite images and I will also pick my favorites. I will edit those and then provide them to the model. This has worked will for me. Mar 10 06 01:12 pm Link After a shoot I will burn all images that came out clear and crisp on the disc. and let the model go home and pick which images she wants retouched and edited. Usually 10-15 I will retouch and edit for her/him. The ones I specifically edit will have my markings on them. The rest of the prints they can use for whatever reason un-edited. Some models just like to use the un edited pics for things like myspace or web sites or just to send to friends. Most of the images will never get used so shouldn't matter. Then again I only shoot about 80-120 shots per session. Unless more is needed. Mar 10 06 01:31 pm Link I dont know I might be the odd ball out the bunch...i rather have my millions of unedited photos...because all photographers are good at editing or over edited and i want my images to come out a certain way...natural not distorted of false...so i like to take my cd with pride and thank them for a grand shoot and take my pics to someone else who could possibly edit them or is more experienced in editing because that is possibly all they do...soo yea ..CD please ... because many may say i would like a few good edited images...but you have to wait weeks for them and personally i dont have that kind of time...i have someone who still has my images from a shoot over a month ago and hasnt got to editing mine yet...i am not really happy about that because i really need these photos....soo yea ill take the cd thanks and have a nice dayMar 10 06 01:42 pm Link Interesting, ok. I also average about 80-120 shots per four hours of shooting but it really depends on what I'm doing. I've also spent two hours of a shoot setting up to get one photo (and shot off a bunch of variations). Maybe it's just my style, but I plan a shot and then execute it to the best of my ability. I make sure I get a few well posed "Masters" in that setup. Then I tell the model to just have some fun within that parameter and I shoot her up for a bit. I find I often get some better results with new models that don't have a lot of experience posing doing this. I like the idea of a private proof site, that's something to really consider. Matt Mar 10 06 01:46 pm Link Zendragon wrote: The last photog I worked with did this, we sat together and picked the images on a scale of 1-3 "3" being the best. He deleted the agreed upon "1's" and asked to allow him time to edit the "2", and "3"'s. It has been painstaking to wait for the shot but he will put up a new one every week until he finishes. Even though this is killing me softly, the end results have been amazing... Mar 10 06 01:49 pm Link Mostly - A Photographers and a Models taste will differ... Something you did with me that I might wish to display in my port, you may not want to. Usually I will just ask for 5-10 of the best - edited, cropped so that I may print, or use them for an online portfolio... But sometimes I look at what I recieved and think - what happened to that shot, or this shot... I want to be able to go through my shots and figure out what I did wrong, why a particular pose didn't work, why others did... I want to find the picture I enjoy the most - to display as me - Overall, i'm not sure someone else should choose that image! But - I do think anything you display in your port - if it's someone else work as well, you should confront them and make sure they are ok with being displayed that way as well! - It can't only be about you. There are usually at least 2 people involved, and I think those 2 people decide what's the best, not just 1. I suppose overall, if the opinions don't match you agree on something - or offer your opinion as to why it wasn't a 'good image' so that the other understands, and is able to critique their own work properly... Just my 2 cents! -InDe. Mar 10 06 01:50 pm Link When I'm doing a TFwhatever I have a page that I ask the models to read. It includes the following: What do I get for all that? You will be entitled to one or two pictures (high-resolution, ready-to-print, plus smaller website-ready digital versions of the same images) of each different shot or "look", on a CD-ROM, and on request a promotional release from us so you can design and print your own promotional materials. Does that mean I don't get a copy of all the pictures we shot? Yes, that's exactly what it means. Every shoot results in a lot of pictures that are less than the best; we don't want them floating around as examples of our work. We will sit with you while you pick the shots you want from everything we took, if you do it immediately after the shoot. Otherwise we choose the ones to keep, edit the best of them to look as good as we can, and throw away the rest. Mar 10 06 01:52 pm Link I personally like to see all of the images. I think it is important, especially for new models, to look at what is working AND what isn't. A lot of times there are small things that can ruin an otherwise great shot, so it's good, as a model, to see these things, in order to avoid them in the future. I think Zendragon has a very nice method, allowing the model to see all the unedited images, then pick a few to be edited. Or sitting down together after a shoot and taking a quick glance through the shots on a laptop (if it's digital) can be very helpful for a model. However, I only really care about seeing all the images if it is a TFP/CD shoot. If I am being paid, or doing something specific for a project then once I leave I don't expect anything more from the photog. I just hope that we were able to get what the photog had in their mind captured on camera. It seems like a lot of photogs are worried about models getting all the pics, then posting some of the poorer images, but you can talk about this with the model. Or tell them not to credit you with any images that you have not retouched. In any case there is one reason why a model would like to see all the images from a shoot. Also I know a lot of models who don't agree with photographers on which shot is the most flattering. I think this is somewhat important when doing a trade deal for the model to get something they were hoping for. It can be very frustrating to shoot for 5 hours and know that you got some really great stuff, but then to only see 5 shots. I know that I did a TFP once where I wanted to get some shots of me wearing a shirt, and the photog seemed fine with this, but I never saw one shot of me wearing a shirt. I know that there would have been at least one of me wearing a shirt that I would have liked for my port. Mar 10 06 01:57 pm Link Sxy6ftr wrote: This is essentially what I do, although I can usually get through one a night. I have a comfortable studio that allows for the model and myself to review the images on calibrated monitors to select those we like. I find this to be the best way, but yes, it takes time. Mar 10 06 01:58 pm Link I think everyone here has posted great comments. This is an intriguiging topic because there are a few things to consider all involving the photographer's perception of his or her own work ethic and philosophy. I think many photographers place all images on the CD based on convenience. It is so much easer to drag and drop all images than to take the time to filter the images. Also, may of us are running one-man-shows which means we may not have the necessary time to spend on touching up 25 pics. Now, I personally wonder what the quality of work is when one person is touching up two dozen photos. Don't get me wrong, some people are animals with their photo editors and can work through a batch of images in no time using very advanced methods and techniques. I personally know I spend easily 45 minutes with one image to achieve the results that I am satisfied with. Then again, there is the flip side. Someone that touches up 45 pics in 2 hours. There is only so many times I allow myself to click with the healing brush!!! (LOL)!!! Now, my purpose for giving CDs with all images good and bad after a shoot. Just like every other photographer, stylist, and model in this community, we are constantly honing our skills. I still visit my earliest photography attempts just to remember my roots. Also, we learn from our mistakes and our successes. Models aren't perfect nor is my camera work. So, being able to see the entire process is one of the advantages to using today's technology. I pass on all the pics as a favor to the model and purists of the craft. There are often times a model will think she gave me her best work. She'll think her pose was wonderful, assume that because of how I held the camera the composition was great, etc. but she'll never know the end result if she never gets a chance to see it. Just as photographers need to study their craft daily we should explore elements of direction, makeup, styling, etc. And a model needs to understand those things including how cameras function in certain situations and elements of composition and lighting. This is a legacy we are attempting to create through our dedication and excitement for our talents. Don't cheat yourself from the process. Put your best foot forward any way you see fit, but don't do it at the expense of someone's teachable moment. Sincerely, Mr. Jay Mar 10 06 02:04 pm Link InDecisivE wrote: I agree with this and enjoy this part of the creative process. I also think that this should be part of the preproduction process though. If I'm shooting you I should know what you need for your portfolio and the specific look you want to achieve. Then we work together to achieve it. By the time we get to the editing stage, there really shouldn't be too many surprises. At that point it's fun, we sit at the editing desk, have a latte and go over the shots, choosing the best ones. Mar 10 06 02:14 pm Link Paramour Productions wrote: A lot of the models want a full CD of the images immediately after a shoot because they're concerned that otherwise they may never see ANY images or might only get one or two edits. Mar 10 06 02:28 pm Link Mar 10 06 02:28 pm Link Paramour Productions wrote: I agree with you 2! Most of the time the "killer shot" is agreed upon! I mean, not very often have I disagreed with what the good and bad shots are! Mar 10 06 02:32 pm Link I'm not going to read all the responses on this, but my take. I never actually ask for a disk. However, I have walked away with more than one, several times. I assume that if you give me a disk, you are giving me creative rights to photoshop. My one fault, is I often forget to put copyrights on the images. I'm trying to get better on that one, really! And so far I haven't had any photographers ask me to take them down (and I've asked them if they want me to or not). But if you don't give me a CD, I wait. Sometimes a tad impatiently. Ok, a little more than "a tad". Mar 10 06 02:39 pm Link I understand the idea of reviewing the pics. I actually do this as well with models. However, one of the things that always presents itself is a picture that looks like a dud, but actually has life if a little attention is given to it in a photo editor. Many models don't see the same thing when reviewing shots that I would see. For example, an over exposed picture, but there is still color in the over exposed regions. To an untrained eye, the shot is bright and washed out. But to a photographer, he/she sees a picture that just needs to have the levels adjust a bit. I suppose I am sharing this as a reminder that there is a technical aspect to photography that we have to always keep in mind especially when reviewing pics or even dumping them to a CD for the model to review later. Don't disregard a pic because it came off the camera funny. It may actually be your best shot...just needs some TLC. Keep the shutter snapping and remember...Every picture is perfect, we just have to show it to the world. Sincerely, Mr. Jay Mar 10 06 02:40 pm Link These are all great responses, thank you to all who have taken the time to school me on this. I think part of my confusion, may be particular to some of what I do, and as I do a greater variety of work, how I do certain things may change. For example, I agree that the method of posting proofs to a secure web page for the model is a great idea. My real life port is very portraiture intensive. Whether glam or actor headshots or moody, high-key, low-key - I like shooting faces. So even though I'm trying to do more and expand my port in different areas, it's pretty natural that some folks come to me to have headshots done. Well, once I get someone set up for the head shot (and I might do several set-ups in a session), I often take quite a few shots (this is for someone who specifically wants a head shot - not for when a head shot is just part of an over all shoot). Well, when it's over, if I just handed you a contact sheet you might see 50 identical shots. And you would think I was crazy... But if I sit you down in front of a high res monitor (or gave you all 50 prints in large format) and told you to really take your time with them and pick the one that was best, you would start to see them differently. Then, when I'm off fiddling with a lens, I'll hear "HEY, THIS ONE". Maybe I caught the moment when you started to smile, but before you actually did. Maybe you see a certain sparkle in your eyes, or what not, then you found the one. That's the one we go with. All the other 49 are still good, and they're essentially the same, but that ONE is best. So I would never bother giving you (or retouching) the other 49 which are essentially the same shot. See what I mean? Even if a model is posing, sometimes things just don't work, sometimes I still take a variety of shots. If you do something that looks good while shooting I'll tell you to hold, and I'll make sure I get that shot a few times from a variety of angels and at different distances for crops. Sometimes I do all that and it's for nothing, sometimes it is the reason for all the work that day, you never really know till it's over. Again, thanks, this has all been helpful. I look forward to reading more. Matt Mar 10 06 02:50 pm Link Mr Jay wrote: Very true!!! This is why I like to do the review either a few days after the shoot when I have done the initial weeding/tweaking or at my editing station, where I can show someone when a photo has potential. In certain instances when shooting digital I will intentionally expose to the right in order to capture more detail and then adjust in post. Mar 10 06 02:55 pm Link Sxy6ftr wrote: I think doing it this way ultimately give the model and the photographer the best images... but I will say this, the model and I agree to a turn around time from when they choose their favorite images and I will make sure that their selection is edited and provided to them withint the timeframe we agree on. My selection may take a little longer just because it may take me longer to pick images that I think are my favorites Mar 10 06 02:57 pm Link my favorite photographer always posts all of the undedited pics on a link that i only know the address to. i then tell him the ones i like and the ones i love. there's usually like 20 i like and 3-5 i love. he edits the 3-5 for me and burns them on a disk with the 20 likes and gives that to me. he knows i'm an avid scrapbooker so even if i don't use them for my portfolio, i might use them for my scrapbook. another photog heard me say how i like to play around with actual prints to distort them for my art and so after our first shoot, he sent me a whole package. he sent me a 3x5 of all 200 images (print, not just disc), a disc with all the images, and an 11x14 of his personal favorite one edited as well. i loved it and i told him i thought he went overboard, but it made my day. you can bet i give him a great referal. i just thought that was sweet. most photogs though give me discs with all the images. Mar 10 06 02:58 pm Link I do it just so that they have the images. Then I usually go through and find the best images. But with my schedule it is often difficult for me to deliver finished images in a timely manner. And often time as well what I shoot is going to end up as content for their websites anyway so they need all the images. Mar 10 06 03:00 pm Link If I know the model is really good at Photoshop and professional enough to not just throw stuff up on her site I'll give her the whole disk. Mar 10 06 03:19 pm Link It depends on what they're going to be used for, I guess. If you were taking a bunch of photos to be used in some sort of art piece --I'm thinking work like Chad Michael Ward ( http://www.digitalapocalypse.com/art.php ) and Bob Libby ( http://www.ratspike.com/gallery/art ) here-- you might want a bunch to use different pieces from. Maybe none of the full images would make it into a portfolio by themselves, untouched. But why would the average beginner internet model want 'em? Because s/he hasn't realized that when you upload tons of photos from the same set, it doesn't make you look any more experienced... it does exactly the opposite. I don't think they realize how boring it is to the average viewer either. I mean, who wants to look at a page full of photos of the same pose (or close to it) with almost imperceptible variations on the theme? Not me. I don't even enjoy combing through discs given to me for useable images most of the time. (zzZZzz) I prefer the best few shots from a shoot. Generally less than 10, but more than 1, if possible. Out of those, I will usually pick 1 or 2 that I like best. Models and photographers sometimes have different ideas on what "best" means. If a shot has god-like lighting, perfect framing, and the focus on my cleavage could cut glass, but I'm caught in a half-blink or am posing in a way that makes my lower half look weird... well, I'm not going to use the photo in my portfolio. And even then, sometimes after receiving images, if I don't like one of them enough to boot an older favorite from my portfolio... well... it doesn't go up. It's not meant to be an insult to the photographer. Maybe the current combination of shots in my portfolio just works better for me. Mar 10 06 04:27 pm Link Josie Nutter wrote: EXACTLY! Thank you for making my point much more succinctly than I did... Mar 10 06 04:32 pm Link (Duplicate post.) Mar 10 06 04:36 pm Link Porchia wrote: shoot with better photographers. ones who care about their work and won't let every image they shot fly out the window without even looking at them. Mar 10 06 04:41 pm Link InDecisivE wrote: Mar 10 06 04:43 pm Link Paramour Productions wrote: I thought in the past it's only fair to let models have a copy of their work to critique themselves and what not... What I didn't realize that models just use whatever pictures they think they look good in and often times the pictures they pick are the worst pictures of them and because they think all the pictures look good they use all of it. Which boogles my mind because it doesn't showcase them well and make them look unexperienced. One good picture is better than 10 so, so pictures. Mar 10 06 04:50 pm Link Josie Nutter wrote: Every model should read this posting!!! Mar 10 06 04:53 pm Link Thanks for all the advice...This forum is helpful for a newbie  Mar 10 06 05:02 pm Link i think it is odd to give a cd. digital printing is like rocket science if done right, so the photographer should be nice and just make the freakin' prints. Mar 10 06 05:52 pm Link My first photo shoot I didn't get no CD I got a big pacakage full of print outs. it was such a hassle because I had to scan them to put them on my web port. after that no photographer has ever gave me a CD right after the shoot I usually wait like a moth to get my CD. But the is one of the photgraphers that I Loved he gave a cd with 2 folders in it one with all them images and the other folder with all the edited images. plus he gave four 8x10 prints of what he thought it was the best. But then in the other hand I had Photographer who mailed me a CD with not one image edited. But none of them have ever really asked me to sit with them to look at all the images they are always ina hurry to leave after the shoot. Mar 10 06 06:11 pm Link I actually prefer a CD with a few of the best, hi-res edited images from any shoot to prints because I do my own printing to ensure my book looks uniform. I hate getting a CD with a billion unedited images because I have no idea what to do with them, and sometimes my computer has trouble opening them. I especially appreciate getting a CD or the tearsheet via e-mail from clients, because then I don't have to worry about scanning vs. copyright law. Mar 10 06 06:46 pm Link TXPhotog wrote: this is exactly why i DO NOT give a disc of ALL the images. Mar 10 06 09:27 pm Link |
