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almost arrested...ON A PHOTO SHOOT :-(
wanted to pass along some information on something that happened to me this past weekend, it may save you some drama and embarrasment, maybe even some legal fees. I'm a photographer, and i was shooting a CD cover for a woman here in Florida this past weekend. We were shooting near a railroad track, trying to get some of the industrial buildings in the background. I like late day sun, and as the sun was going lower, we moved onto the tracks to get more light. Out of no-where a cop from the railraod came out and read us the riot act...screaming and calling us stupid for being on the tracks. Now granted i had 5 people on the shoot and we were shooting right near a crossing,So we had lookouts for both directions and where we were, the trains are required to slow down. He very strictly(think: Drill sargeant) reminded everyone on the shoot that we were tresppasing on private property anf then gave us all warnings after ID'ing us and berating us. So...what have i learned form this experience?? First, that there are railroad police...Who Knew???, that you can get arrested for just doing a job.... and keep off the tracks, I posted this in general mayhem because the model, MUA and stylist were given warnings too. I see alot of people who's pics are taken on train tracks in here, just wanted to share the love and experience. Mar 09 06 09:55 am Link Im not sure why and im guessing due to liability and tanker cars filled with explosive fuels in populated cities and the crazy stuff that terrorists think of in other countries with trains, Police in Michigan are the same exact way no exceptions. Train engineers have cell phones and call either private security or local police for immediate removal or arrest. Its not like it use to be due to terrorists Sincerely Ron Blake Mar 09 06 10:03 am Link bubbaclicks wrote: Duh? Trespassing is a crime. And if you're a rail-yard guard and your boss finds out that people are wandering around, you get fired. That guy was righteously pissed because you could have cost him his job. You're lucky you got away clean. I know a guy got his ass whipped pretty hard by a yard dog when he was trying to jump a freight train. Put him in the hospital. And the police were like, "so you fell off the rail car? you shouldn't have been there in the first place!" Mar 09 06 10:04 am Link Guerilla Photography: Get in, shoot and get out before any authorities know that you've been there shooting on private property. It's either that, or you follow the protocal of scouting for a location and securing permission to shoot on the property. More often than not, the property owner is flattered being asked and if you are nice and communicative, permission is usually secured without cost. You have to be a 'people person' to do this. Mar 09 06 10:07 am Link One of the reasons I shoot more studio now- Mar 09 06 10:10 am Link GWC, I hate to offend or insult you, but sometimes you seem like a pretty reasonable guy. Mar 09 06 10:10 am Link I have given security a nice tip  in the past that seemed to pacify and left us alone to shoot on museum grounds. Jolly ranchers can do wonders Mar 09 06 10:12 am Link Lens N Light wrote: DUDE! THOSE ARE FIGHTING WORDS!!! Mar 09 06 10:12 am Link Lens N Light wrote: yep i noticed that a little sarcastic Mar 09 06 10:14 am Link Maybe the girls were too sexy and he didn't like it? Maybe I'm just lucky. I've only had one run-in with the police and it was while I was in Hermosa Beach, CA. We were taking pictures on one of the Lifeguard towers. They came over and told us we're not supposed to be up there and to hurry up! So we did, spent about another 5 minutes taking pics and then abandoned the tower. Mar 09 06 10:16 am Link welcome to the USA post 9/11! Mar 09 06 10:17 am Link example with a Museum Photography Policy No photography is allowed within the Art Museum galleries. http://www.cranbrookart.edu/museum/info.html But if you call the office they will allow photo session with professional photographers for a small fee. $50. Mar 09 06 10:24 am Link If you were near the tracks and not in a rail yard you should have told him to piss up a rope. Unless he is law enforcement within the municipality he has no more power that one of those old farts at WalMart that drive around in thier 2 cylinder car with the big bad yellow light. If they are in a security guard capacity they don't even have the power to hold you. If what that asshole said is true then we tresspass everytime we go across a RR crossing. RR right of way only consist of the easment on either side of the track and is only for the placement of thier track. Now if you are screwing around with the switchgear or a crossing box then you can be jailed, but not by Box Car Willie. If you are in the yard(which is clearly posted No Tresspassing) then you are gambling with your freedom. Airports are different, they have police that ARE a division of the municipal Police Department. Mar 09 06 10:28 am Link Duncan wrote: Realy has nothing to do with post 911. Has to do with the number of really dumb people that get hit by trains and whose families then sue the railroad....afterall it's really tough to hear (or feel) that 100 car train coming....it's society, blame everyone else for your own stupidity... Mar 09 06 10:30 am Link Dude, the rules are enforced now. Take a pic of a train, govt building is a 'terrorist act' Some rules are strange: In Vegas, if you are a professional photographer you have to get permssion to shoot on casino grounds. Tourist NO! lets see, 20 Vegas pros, vs 40 million tourist! the logic! Since , all 20 Vegas pros are notorious drinkers and womanizers; I can vouch they are not Muslim. You just can't see butt under a flowing burka. BTW, the image of the Strip has been copyrighted. So no more naked blondes photos on the Strip. Enforcing that one is a joke! Mar 09 06 10:35 am Link Duncan wrote: I know you are right, but DAM! all this is really sad! Mar 09 06 10:40 am Link There are about 2300 Railroad police officers in the US today, considering that there are several hundred thousand miles of track and all of the officers wouldn't be on duty at the same time you may want to consider buying some lottery tickets because the odds of running into one are pretty low. However in urban areas and areas like yards where the railroads have a lot of high value cargoes sitting around your odds would be much higher. RR police have the same authority as regular police on RR property. I've run into them on occasion during news shoots and they have no flexibility on trespassing. The rule for most track is 33 feet out from the center of the track is their property. This varies from place to place. Also crossing the tracks at any place other than a specified crossing is considered trespassing. This was all in place pre 9/11 however there has been more scrutiny since them. If you are shooting on RR property they can not and will not give permission to continue. I've read some 2nd hand reports of photographer being detained by RR and regular police for shooting around RRs. I have also heard stories of film being confiscated or images erased but I've never seen conclusive proof that this has every actually happened. Mar 09 06 10:40 am Link UnoMundo Photography wrote: I agree, how are they going to enforce it? Again, as a previous poster said, when you shoot on location, where people will be, you have to go guerilla. Plain and simple. If you're in Vegas, and you shoot in Red Rock or Valley of Fire, not so much, because no one is near by. Casino pools are great to shoot in and 90% of the time, if you are a guest, they'll let you shoot no problem. Even before the pool is even open. Mar 09 06 10:43 am Link Historically, RR police have been that type. Not much authority, Barnie Fife types. Perhaps that is why they were called Railroad Dicks. Let's be careful out there ! Mar 09 06 10:43 am Link I've often found that if I just act & dress like a tourist w/ a camera, (TAC) I'm never bothered. I'll just have one camera w/one lens. If I start looking like a professional, i.e. more than one camera, lots of equipmet, etc....that's when I start drawing attention. Go Guerillas! Mar 09 06 10:48 am Link Ron B Blake wrote: Like I needed one more reason to hate terrorists! Mar 09 06 10:49 am Link Something similar happened to me when I was on a location search once. I was going to a railroad that actually isn´t in use anymore (we wanted to do some freaky silent-movie-shoot with me in ropes on the rail and a evil looking Mexican Outlaw) and I was just looking and someone from a tower started yelling at me what the hell I was doing there. Mar 09 06 10:52 am Link chooo chooo .... here she comes round the mountain once again! Mar 09 06 10:53 am Link Our city has one of the busiest railroad intersections in the USA. Even in this small city, we have at least one death per year and several injuries due to people on the tracks when a train passes. There are signs all over the place stating the railroads are private property. Even with all that, I can still find places to shoot on the tracks that would not draw attention or ire or be unsafe. I was surprised a couple months ago, though. I shot with a model in Omaha and had planned to do a couple shots of her walking to the old Union Pacific station (now a museum) in a Casablanca motif. When we got there, she said no because security had run them off of a previous attempt to shoot, there. I guess even abandoned stations are safety/security risks.. Mar 09 06 10:59 am Link Womack Photography wrote: jeremy, Mar 09 06 11:01 am Link bubbaclicks wrote: (sigh) and every dumb ass that gets hurt by a train sues the railroad et al....so can you blame the guy who's JOB IS ON THE LINE for trying to keep you among the living and out of civil court actions.... Mar 09 06 11:09 am Link Ron B Blake wrote: um "and the crazy stuff that terrorists think of in other countries with trains"...other countries? we do a damn fine job of thinking up great terrorist acts in THIS country...(can anyone say timothy mcveigh and donald rumsfeld with one breath?) Mar 09 06 11:13 am Link Lens N Light wrote: Agreed. Mar 09 06 11:14 am Link Elite Imaging wrote: yo...ever hear of a citizen's arrest? Mar 09 06 11:18 am Link GWC wrote: wasn't a rail yard... it was the tracks only Mar 09 06 11:19 am Link It sounds to me like you were tresspassing and the cop was just doing his job. Bravo for him, shame on you. Mar 09 06 11:23 am Link Elite Imaging wrote: this guy was not a Secrity guard... he had a gun and was in a truck with a railroad police sheild on the door, he also had a book of tickets and citaations, i learned a long time ago to diffuse an aggressive person by being polite and acting ignorant... which i truly was Mar 09 06 11:23 am Link There have been railroad police almost as long as there have been railroads. Congress and the states have allowed the railroads to police themselves since the tracks that are owned by the various companies cross so many jurisdictions that it's really not practical for local and state authorities to handle the issues. Railroad police can enforce simple issues (like tresspassing) but at the same time, can't really enforce major criminal behavior (they can apprehend suspects, but then they turn them over to the state police.) Be that as it may, if the Railroad Police or other authorities spot you on the train tracks, be aware that you are tresspassing and are in violaton of the law. If you are cooperative, they usually will let you go if you leave promptly. If you argue or get offended, or complain, the police will make your life miserable. As for a train crossing being tresspassing, it's not. The roads are public right-of-ways that the tracks happen to cross. It is the responsilbilty of the railroad to maintain the crossing so that cars, etc. can cross safely. Just be careful and let the RR cops do their jobs. Mar 09 06 11:25 am Link phcorcoran wrote: I applaud anyone doing their job, i was trying to do mine. Wasn't putting any blame on anyone.... i didn't know i was in the wrong and was trying to help others from making the same mistake...wow, its a tough crowd in here Mar 09 06 11:32 am Link Duncan wrote: Well, it's probably worse now, but railroad dicks and employees have always chased and harassed trespassers. As kids, we played on the Long Island Railroad tracks, and sometimes had to run when we were spotted. Mar 09 06 11:33 am Link Get permission and they will even help you schedule near the time you want ot shoot and around the train schedules. A lot safer and a lot more legal! Mar 09 06 11:44 am Link bubbaclicks wrote: The tracks are privately owned as well... Mar 09 06 11:45 am Link Hamza wrote: OK Mar 09 06 11:49 am Link Great Reply Moraxian. It should also be added that since you are shooting on private property, without a release, you open yourself up to legal liability if you attempt to sell the images commerically (and if you present them to for sale or as part of an assignment to an art-director who knows his business, he will refuse them without a property release). Do you honestly think that someone on the board of directors at the RR companies said "let's just make life inconvenient for photographers and not let them shoot on our tracks without permission"? No. It's because railroad tracks are dangerous places (and not just when there is a train there). High Heels, Metal rails, lots of little rocks, bits of glass and pools of grease aren't the smartest combination. It creates a HUGE legal liabilty for the RR when people wonder on the tracks. And if there are recognizable landmarks in the images, and you have shot them on private property, you risk getting sued/charged by the owner of the land (in this case the RR). While this is unlikely, it doesn't make it right, Just like if someone downloaded all of your images, posted them elsewhere claiming they shot them. It is easy to do, but that doesn't stop it from being theft. When you shoot "Guerilla", and don't respect the ownership rights of others, you are continuing the trend that fosters the concept of not respecting others properties or rights in general. Would you call yourself so arrogant as to be above other people ownership rights? I hope not. Okay, my last point on this: How many times have we seen shots done on railroad tracks? BORING! There are SO many places to shoot. Hasn't this horse been beaten to death already? cheers! /b Mar 09 06 11:50 am Link bubbaclicks wrote: Obviously shoting on train tracks is dangerous etc etc etc... however regardless of that the gaurd was unproffesional. Going into Drill Srgt dress down mode was possibly uncalled for. Mar 09 06 11:54 am Link |
