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Enough already . . . model managers
Ughh. I booked 2 shoots recently with models who picked up managers shortly after I booked them. The first model simply decided to be unprofessional, not return phone calls and ended up as a no-call no-show. Today, the manager for the other model I'm supposed to shoot with tomorrow said that the pics I take of her tomorrow will probably end up only for her personal use, meaning he's going to want language in the release that says I can't use the pics for my own portfolio or for commercial promotion. I asked if the model had a problem and he said 'no.' He said he's the one uncomfortable (he's delusional - she's an ALT model) because she's going to take off commercially. Um, okay. Anybody else sick of GWC's acting like they are professional management? I think it's going to get ugly tomorrow and I'm readying an invoice for services rendered if he gives me any issues over usage. I'm also going to name him in this forum if he pulls anything. As for the other model and her manager, all I want is a frikkin apology. Otherwhise, their numbers will get posted too. It's time to start rooting out the idiots. I'm cranky. Jun 27 05 03:14 pm Link Why not just name him and the models now? christian Jun 27 05 03:36 pm Link ... or just not sign it. Who'd take a picture they couldn't use in their own portfolio? Besides you don't need permission for a likeness in your book, just if you use it commercially... Jun 27 05 03:38 pm Link If photographers simply don't book models with Internet "managers" and make it clear to any model who wants to book through her internet "manager", that this is unacceptable, the problem will solve itself. Jun 27 05 03:40 pm Link what's wrong with an internet manager? as long as they don't ask for stupid things Jun 27 05 03:43 pm Link what the hell is an "internet manager" lolllllll Jun 27 05 03:44 pm Link Posted by ChristianBehr: I've got a rep for being nice. I don't want to start a flame war if it's not necessary. It's just really aggravating. Jun 27 05 03:46 pm Link Posted by Larisa Burdeynaya: Hehe. I don't get it either. They seem to grow on trees though here in Ohio. Jun 27 05 03:47 pm Link I would put it this way to the "manager" Are you paying me for the shoot? No, well then I will use these for on my own promotion. Hell if your not getting paid then they don't own the images. You own the copyright. Go ahead and name them so we can laugh at them properly Jun 27 05 03:48 pm Link Posted by Robb Radford: I sent out a few emails and asked for clarification. Before I pick on anyone here, I want to give them a chance to make things right. Jun 27 05 04:22 pm Link Sad that models fall for that notion of needing a manager. That really DOES seem to be a "new scam" perpetuated by the Internet. In all my years of shooting, I have never encountered a model with a "manager" with the exception of one. Skye Ashton. www.skyeashton.net About 2.5 years ago, she and I emailed each other to set up a shoot. Everything was cool. We corresponded numerous times about it. She was really lighthearted and upbeat and fun. I couldn't wait. I never spoke to her by phone, but I spoke to her "manager" on the phone and the date and time was all set. He seemed like a decent enough guy. When I arrived at the address I was given, at the date and time specified, there was no answer. Multiple emails and phonecalls asking "what happened" were never returned. That was it. She just vanished. It's too bad. Because I'd still love to work with Skye. She's really beautiful and has a fun, carefree attitude in her images that is several notches above that of other models. Was it her fault? Was it the "managers" fault? I dunno, since I never heard from either one of them again. I honestly wonder if I was ever talking to Skye at all. Maybe it was just some ex-boyfriend who is trying to make her look bad or something. Set up a site and book fake shoots to discredit her. Who knows? But, in all the years I've been shooting, that was the ONLY model I ever encountered who had a "manager" and ... well, as you can see, it wasn't a very productive experience. Jun 27 05 04:23 pm Link I've said it before, and I'll say it again.... most internet managers are nothing more than a crappy photographer that desperately wants to be a big shot. It's too bad really. I can understand the value of having a good manager, and a decent one could answer most of the questions models commonly ask in the forums. However, as a practical matter, most of the guys I've run into pretending to "manage" models have more crap between the ears than brains. I honestly don't understand what makes these poor girls follow these guys. Jun 27 05 04:30 pm Link If a model lists a manager, I won't contact her or mark her in my favorites. These models don't need a manager and I don't want to have to deal with people who don't add anything to the end result. The one time I did a shoot with another photographer where some models with managers were present, it led to headaches, with the manager taking my shots and photoshopping his company name on the shorts one of the models was wearing. He withdrew the pictures after I complained, but only after a nasty exchange. Left a bad taste... Jun 27 05 04:31 pm Link Posted by Boyd Hambleton: You know what? Post their names, because quite frankly, I'm getting cranky being lumped in together with the idiots. Yeah, I feel "lumped in", because I wear the title of Manager/Booking Agent on another site and my conduct and performance is no where near the Internet Managers who seem to be doing shitty ass jobs of P.R'ing and Liaisoning on the model's behalf. I don't appreciate these toads giving "Model Manager" a bad name. Jun 27 05 04:31 pm Link Posted by Joe K. Perez: Posted by Boyd Hambleton: You know what? Post their names, because quite frankly, I'm getting cranky being lumped in together with the idiots. Yeah, I feel "lumped in", because I wear the title of Manager/Booking Agent on another site and my conduct and performance is no where near the Internet Managers who seem to be doing shitty ass jobs of P.R'ing and Liaisoning on the model's behalf. I don't appreciate these toads giving "Model Manager" a bad name. Just so you all know, on OMP, several models list me as their Manager and many of them refer to me as their Manager. However, in the strictest sense of the word, I really am more of their "consult and promotions", if and only when it's necessary. Here's a list of things these models have called, or e-mailed me for: Jun 27 05 04:40 pm Link Agreed! I am not a manager or call myself a manager, but I do screen emails for several models and contact the requesting photographer, ask a couple of simple questions and if all is well, then I have the model call him/her and off they go for their shoot. In some cases, I've gone with a model to meet a photographer and if she is happy, then hey! that's great, I get to meet more people and they have a good shoot. On the other hand, I have had some real assholes for photographers that I've had to tell to FO! Jun 27 05 04:43 pm Link - Jun 27 05 04:55 pm Link Posted by Joe K. Perez: Posted by Joe K. Perez: Posted by Boyd Hambleton: You know what? Post their names, because quite frankly, I'm getting cranky being lumped in together with the idiots. Yeah, I feel "lumped in", because I wear the title of Manager/Booking Agent on another site and my conduct and performance is no where near the Internet Managers who seem to be doing shitty ass jobs of P.R'ing and Liaisoning on the model's behalf. I don't appreciate these toads giving "Model Manager" a bad name. Just so you all know, on OMP, several models list me as their Manager and many of them refer to me as their Manager. However, in the strictest sense of the word, I really am more of their "consult and promotions", if and only when it's necessary. Here's a list of things these models have called, or e-mailed me for: Furthermore, let me go into some of my personal thoughts on what I believe a Manager IS and IS NOT. Jun 27 05 04:57 pm Link Posted by Robb Radford: I don't know if this has been said, I didn't read through the whole thread, because most of it is about models and managers, something I'm too tired to think about too much at the moment, but I just want to stress that even if you ARE paid, unless you sign away your rights (a VERY bad idea), the photographer ALWAYS owns the copyright. Jun 27 05 04:59 pm Link Yep, I've been staying away from interent managers.Usually because they just don't have the best interest of the model inmind. Plus, why pay a manager.I'd rather the model get all the money from the shoot.The model works hard not to. Just my two cents.What do I know. ha . Jun 27 05 05:19 pm Link You seem to be handling the situation well. It's your shoot after all, so why let people walk over you? As has been pointed out before, tell them to walk. No matter what that manager says, the copyright to an image you produce is yours. Whatever you shoot, you own. You can do whatever you want with the images shot on your property or public space provided that the object of the shoot was aware of being photographed. So unless you sign a release (to your creative rights), you own the images and can use them in any form fit. Other than that, there are many models out there, so I've learned to not cut people any slack whatsoever. If they give you attitude, give them double and don't deal with them. It's moments like this that I enjoy the fact that I shoot fashion and portrait and managers and models alike usually ask me to shoot and show up 30 minutes in advance. But nudes are completely different. Attitudeland. Jun 27 05 05:24 pm Link One should not ridicule another in public by listing his name and the models name just because one does not like their business practices. People have a right to be stupid. If they are not ripping you off or abusing you then keep it private. This is fine but to name them is wrong. You have the right to say no. I agree they are idiots but people have a right not to be flogged in public. Jun 27 05 05:28 pm Link Posted by Bill Powers: As a photographer, this is what you should know. You're never required to pay a "Manager". If you're a client dealing with a bonded and licensed "Talent Agent and Agency", then the client pays them. Actors/Actresses and probably some Models, hire Managers and pay them direct, because it is a personal service. Models who are agency rep'ed have the best of both worlds, to which they don't have to pay out-of-pocket for. Jun 27 05 05:33 pm Link Posted by AlexNorden: Great post. Jun 27 05 05:35 pm Link Posted by Boyd Hambleton: Are you sure this is what he is asking for? Or just protecting the model from signing over all of her rights to commercial use of the images. Jun 27 05 05:38 pm Link Posted by marksora: Posted by Boyd Hambleton: Are you sure this is what he is asking for? Or just protecting the model from signing over all of her rights to commercial use of the images. If it's a paid photography gig, then I'd bother and wouldn't care. If hired by a client to shoot a model, the resulting material is theirs. If it's portfolio, TFP business, I definitely would not bother. Why expend my effort and energy when I can't show the results on my own portfolio, or make enough money to buy half-a-tank of gas, two happy meals at McDonald's and a fresh re-supply of batteries and film? Jun 27 05 05:40 pm Link Posted by ChristianBehr: Yeah I agree, because I...yes I am already tired of hearing all about all these models who no call, no show, cancel, badmouth, name call...etc. I mean, when are you people going to see the good models out there??? You know...ones like me??? (hint hint) Just kidding....but seriously, someone should start naming them here and there. Makes things better for the rest of us who do give a damn about their modeling, the people they do contact, and email...you know people who do respond to EVERY SINGLE EMAIL...again..like me. Who do take their jobs seriously. Also, there are bad apples on both sides. Eventhough, I am really picky and use my head when scheduling shoots....there isn't a photographer that I have worked with yet.....that has been creepy or a flake. I make sure to communicate well, phone conversations, email. And YES, when I am not interested in working with someone......I will write them back and let them know that. I guess....because SOME MODELS DO CARE!!!! BOTTOM LINE I like to treat others the way I want to be treated. Jun 27 05 05:53 pm Link Posted by Joe K. Perez: Wow this caffeine rush is freaking me out. Jun 27 05 06:01 pm Link I have been asked to "manage" a couple of models and I always tell them that I will advise them only and help point them in the right direction but I will not "manage" them. They set their own deals. Jun 27 05 06:20 pm Link Posted by McKenzie: Posted by ChristianBehr: Yeah I agree, because I...yes I am already tired of hearing all about all these models who no call, no show, cancel, badmouth, name call...etc. I mean, when are you people going to see the good models out there??? You know...ones like me??? (hint hint) Just kidding....but seriously, someone should start naming them here and there. Makes things better for the rest of us who do give a damn about their modeling, the people they do contact, and email...you know people who do respond to EVERY SINGLE EMAIL...again..like me. Who do take their jobs seriously. Also, there are bad apples on both sides. Eventhough, I am really picky and use my head when scheduling shoots....there isn't a photographer that I have worked with yet.....that has been creepy or a flake. I make sure to communicate well, phone conversations, email. And YES, when I am not interested in working with someone......I will write them back and let them know that. I guess....because SOME MODELS DO CARE!!!! BOTTOM LINE I like to treat others the way I want to be treated. Heeeeee, heeeee, heeeee, heeee..... Your time will come my pretty!!! BWWAAAHHHAAAAA!!!!!! :-D Gotta go...... ZZOOOOOM!!!!!! Jun 27 05 06:37 pm Link Posted by ChristianBehr: Ok. Here we go. I'm still waiting on a phone call, so I'll defer on naming the manager involved in tomorrow's shoot. As for the no-call no-show model I first mentioned, she had 5 cam shots up when I first booked her. She got a manager/photographer, a few shoots under her belt and decided she didn't want to answer the phone, emails or to even show up. Jun 27 05 10:46 pm Link the no-call no shows/dont pick up the phone and let it ring models, thats the norm on model mayhem and OMP and those types. internet managers are mostly these days a bunch of dudes who dont even have enough money to pay for their clients MUA, travel expenses, or even per diem (stuff a manager should do for their investment), but they purely base their negotiating on potential and upside, not experience and current market value. most of them are often running around with fake management companies, not c-corped or even s-corped, no tax id, and always brag about being CEO this CEO that, dont even know what CEO means thats why you see those OMP babes with 1 semi-pro or pro shoot to their credit (some dont even have 1) and it says paid assignments only, even though they probably just cut and pasted from an already established models page, thats more the managers fault on basing her current value on potential rather than current market value. i've thankfully never had any issues with any of those cyber managers, although i've pissed off a few of them by helping some of their clients get out of their piss poor contracts and help them establish independence and responsibility. those 2 can be done without a cyber manager, true story but then i also blame photographers for falling for these babes and the babes for falling for these companies. how will a dude who cant even afford to pay travel expenses and has photography taken with red eye still in the picture sitting on their profile saying they can get you in gap, coke-cola, gatorade, sears, best buy, nextel nascar - people are still falling for that and its 2005 but back to the topic, definitely if he's whining about she cant use this for that, then she isnt worth being looked at to work with on any perspective. Jun 27 05 11:07 pm Link MM # is 7775. Name is Ashley Dorenzo. Consider this a PSA for photographers in Ohio and Michigan. Ok anybody know who the photog was on some of these??? Jun 27 05 11:30 pm Link So, if you ever get hit up by a so-called "Manager/Booking Agent" asking for a "booking fee" to shoot with one of their models, ask if they are a bonded and licensed Talent/Model Agency and cross reference their license number with their state. I never usually pay the manager direct, the model usually do.I think there's alot of so called mgrs without a license out there.My concern has always been for the model. Jun 28 05 08:21 am Link I went to a shoot out here in Arizona once. A friend of mine set it up, and the cost was 150 per photographer. That covered the location fees as well as modeling fees for working with 6 models from an agency, and several models working strictly TFP and to learn. The "agency" charged him $750 for the 6 girls to be there for 6 hours,and that would cover things. 3 hours into the shoot, the agency tells my friend that the TFP time is done, now it's time for the models to get paid. When he asked them what happened to the 750 he handed him just 3 hours ago, the reply was, "That was our fee to make sure that they got here, and for us to watch out for the girls. They aren't paid unless you pay them." When we asked what was going on, they told the models to pack it up. The models got upset (they drove 3 hours to get to the shoot) because they weren't going to get paid now. We tried to explain that we had already paid thier agent, but the agent just told them that we had only covered thier fees, nothing for the models. The models wanted all of the releases torn up since they weren't getting paid now, and it all turned out to be a HUGE mess. I was never told the name of the agency by my friend, so I can't post it here. Bottom line though, make sure that you find out what gets what. Jun 28 05 08:52 am Link Okay... time's up. Did the agent provide? If not, who is he and who is she. I'd rather we know so that others don't walk into the same mess. christian ps. Models... if you can't think for yourself... why would you expect a failed photographer to be able to think for you? They know even less than you do. Jun 28 05 09:32 am Link What if another board existed? A peer court board. Incidents like this could be heard by all... and from all points of view. There would be those who could accuse and those who would defend. I'm sure we'd hear about a 6th dead grandmother and sugar in gas tanks ( even though Mythbusters already proved that sugar in a gas tank does nothing ). We'd hear about photogropers and happy harry hard on walking into walls. It would be pure joy. After all, if you can't say something nice.... come sit next to me. christian Jun 28 05 09:38 am Link What do we do with the mobs of angry protestors on the outside? Jun 28 05 09:42 am Link I'm willing to act as an advisor to the defendant in any of these "peer court" actions. My rates are reasonable and I accept paypal! Jun 28 05 09:46 am Link You do of course realize that Judge Theda will always preside? Jun 28 05 09:50 am Link |
