Doug Swinskey wrote:
heres the deal...you are not in a fashion area dealing with fashion models.
you are in a commercial print area...
every guy that has a digital camera shoots glammer (note i didn say glamour).
models in our area need commercial print looks...99% of the gwcs not only dont have a clue  what commercial print is and they wouldn't be interested in shooting it once they found out.....thats where the dollars are..
selling yourself to commercial clients or shooting commerical print images for models..

FYI:
glamour images are worthless to the local models...completely worthless..you wont see glamour images on any comp card from any local agency..

so let the GWCs do the glammer until the cows come home..theres not a penny in it..go after the work, where there is money to be made..

Very well said.

Let the hobbiests (GWC) take the tfp glamour shoots with the models that really aren't, if it's money you are after go after the real money and the real models.  You're fighting over scum with the bottom feeders, rise up and swim with the big fish

CO Model Amber wrote:
I know as a model I'd finally like getting paid for my talent it's been 3 years WHERES THE MONEY? How much longer must I model to earn pay? TFP is nice and all but 3 years of TFP it's getting out of hand.

lol

Amber, if you are wanting to be a paid model, why are you still doing TFP?  Stop giving away the "goods" for free and start charging.

If no one is willing to pay what you ask, check out the chart posted above about supply/demand.

- Denoy

P.S.

Photographers who shoot models and make money off the models are finding it hard to make a decent living because so many "GWC" or other photographers are willing to do it for FREE (and the work may "suck" or even be better).

Models who used to be able to make money to charge for their modeling are now finding it hard to make a living because so many new "models" are willing to do it for FREE (and the work may "suck" or even be better).

The only "real" money to be made nowadays is in shooting for COMMERCIAL clients or weddings, but competition there is FIERCE...and yes...GWCs are also encroaching that area...

The only other option is to do a commercial shoot yourself, and make money off your own photography or modeling.  This is why many "profitable" models/photographers now have a PAID website/membership.  I've gone this route with the VSP-Poker line: www.vsp-poker.com and am open to partnering with SELECT models/photographers.

Studio M Photography wrote:
I know a lot of people in the industry are in it to be creative, artsy. whatever, and I applaud that...but I know those same people aren't just doing it for fun....WE ALL WANT to MAKE $$$...and most have chosen to make a career of this.  Sooooooo   what pisses my off is the fact that I quote a new model a very reasonable session for her portfolio and the next "jac*@ff comes right behind me and undercuts me or even worse offers to do TFP/CD...I know as an aspiring model with little to No $$$ which are you gonna you take....but its crap like this that drives the fees we (photogs) are able to charge....and I'm sure models have the same problem on their side.....

Stop crying about TFP Photogs taking money out of your mouth!  If you are REALLY good, TFP won't matter.

TFP Guys? Bring them on!!!

Oh wait!!  I do TFP!!!  What's wrong with me!!!

Oh I remember..I shoot New Models because... like I'm going to even reveal my reasons in public!!!  I'm not stupid!

If you rely on Models to make your bread and butter, you will STARVE!
If you rely on Photogs to make your bread and butter, you will Starve!

Studio M Photography wrote:
let's address the irony you see....the rant is not against anyone that shoots OR models for tfp...per se...its the people who are driving the value of the profession down...but hey if you are comfortable giving away your work...more power to you. someone stated above they don't do it for $$ and in fact they tend to lose money....maybe we shouldn't have to lose $$$??  I would be just as pissed if it were a "low baller" with a wedding or portrait session...but just like modeling sessions you get what you pay for....
  2) and again TFP on a select and limited basis or if I need to experimant or test new equipment(thought that one was a no-brainer)...TFP is not just so I can shoot "pretty girls"....99% of my stuff is paid...may not be many gigs but paid. FYI I really don't like cake, I prefer pie.
  As far as bait and switch....don't know how you figure that.  If you go to McDonalds...do they not try to "upsell" you the supersize?  You know what you get for $3.00 but for .50 more you get even more....you can always say "no thanks" but how many ever really do??  That's sales and Marketing 101! And I know reading isn't a strong suit for many Mississippians...but I said I am contacted by 4-6 people a week, not that I shoot them all...If its any of yo biz...I might shoot 3-4 tfp or paid a month combined....model stuff is not my main income producer, just what I enjoy the most.
  and I have called no one in particular a jac*@ff..that would entail calling them by name...and sounds like you are the only one who took it that way. maybe  someone fits the "low baller mode". and I never assumed anything about anyone as to why they are here..photog or model.

Mr. Monk,

There are so many inconsistencies in your statements I don't know where to start. So, I'll just hit the high points.

Yes, your rant was against TFP, as well as undercutting price. Reread what you wrote.

No, the model doesn't always get what she (or he) pays for. I look at some paid work vs. some free work and from what I see, free is the better bargain. For model portfolios, my free work is as good as most paid photographers.

Yep, I shoot TFP because I like to shoot pretty girls. If that interfears with your business, maybe you need to find another business. As long as I love making images, I'm not going to give up my avocation. Then again, since "model stuff is not my main income producer," why the huge problem?

From your OMP site, "At this time we are looking for TFP/CD clients in limited numbers for all of the above styles. contact [sic] us for more information." Above styles referring to, "Portrature [sic]...everything from families, seniors, kids/babies...glamour, nudes and "Maxim" type shoots." That doesn't sound like you're looking to "experimant" [sic] or test your lights.

Reading for Mississippians? Putting aside that last week I traded in my (35 year) Florida Drivers License, and that I graduated from a Florida High School, and have 2 years in Florida college, and the fact that I've lived (long term) in 6 different states and 3 foreign countries, I kinda like it here. The people are really nice, the food's good, the tea is sweet, and (imagine this Fla boy) most of the folks here speak English. By the way, your lack of capitalization and poor spelling don't exactly make you qualified to speculate on my ability to read. Oh, that's right, you were slamming everyone in the State of Mississippi, but not me, your target. Tsk, tsk, tsk, how those ignorant generalizations do come home to rest.

But, I digress. Bait and switch? You didn't say you were contacted by 4-6 people a week, you said you were contacted by 6-8. I said (using your statement on your success rate of bait and switch, umm, "upgrading" the shoot to paid, see the quote below) that if you (by your claim) generate 4-6 ("usually sell them") paid gigs a week from it, it works for you, so no need to worry about what I think. "But unless I am currently looking for TFP I usually can sell them on a paid shoot of some kind. " Or did you forget that part of what you said? It's not my business, and I really don't care, but you brought it up, so it's open for discussion. If you really want to be the McDonald's of the photo world, it's your choice. But they give increased value for a small amount of money, not by changing their offer from "Free Burgers" to "Pay Me Now." (Apologies to Jack!) By the way, didn't Micky D's make their money by undercutting the Mom & Pop burger business?

Making a blanket statement like you did, "next "jac*@ff comes right behind me and undercuts me or even worse offers to do TFP/CD" pretty much paints anyone that has a lower rate or shoots TFP with your brush. No need to name names, and I'm not the only one that got it, as a couple of other posters pointed out, they felt the same way. Check the other posts. It appears that your reading skills are on a par with your memory.

Yes, you did assume, and made another blanket statement (again, check that memory issue of yours) "....WE ALL WANT to MAKE $$$...and most have chosen to make a career of this."

But hey, wut duz I no? I'se jus a ignerent sutherner. I beter go chek my teef. I think muh cuzin borried them agin. Tnites corn on de cob nite!

Have a nice day!

Studio M Photography wrote:
I know a lot of people in the industry are in it to be creative, artsy. whatever, and I applaud that...but I know those same people aren't just doing it for fun....WE ALL WANT to MAKE $$$...and most have chosen to make a career of this.  Sooooooo   what pisses my off is the fact that I quote a new model a very reasonable session for her portfolio and the next "jac*@ff comes right behind me and undercuts me or even worse offers to do TFP/CD...I know as an aspiring model with little to No $$$ which are you gonna you take....but its crap like this that drives the fees we (photogs) are able to charge....and I'm sure models have the same problem on their side.....

Some advice from an old retired commercial pro, find some clients to pay both you and the model, that's where the money is. Anyone trying to make a living shooting glamour for net models is spitting into the wind. Yes, mainstream models pay for their portfolio pix, but this ain't mainstream model, this is the internet. If you want to make money from models, shoot some high end commercial stuff and become affiliated with a couple of 'real' model agencies. Bu tbear in mind, the money isn't great, if it's there at all it will just cover your costs.

Studio M Photography wrote:
Brandon
   I feel what ur sayin...let me do a quick explanation....If a model CONTACTS ME looking for TFP/CD If its something or one I am interested shooting I will let them know what is offered and waht they will get...ex cd, or # of prints, ammount of my time, number of looks, poses etc... My TFP is very minimum in what a model gets usually a set number of final images, set # of outfit changes and set max time for shoot.  My pkg's that I charge for offer more a lot more.  I am not pushy or offer a hard sell...but I do educate them as to why they might want more than say 1 outfit, more images etc....they can always decline and take the TFP?CD option.  Let me stress this is when they CONTACT ME.  if I initiate contact it is strictly TFP and I never ask for $$$.

I can totally understand that.  Personally, when I'm contacting the photographer I only express my interest in working with them.  What follows in regards to packages/price/TFP is completely up to the photographer.  My point wasn't directed to you as the photographer but to the idea of the upsell mentioned (referencing the idea of McDonald's Supersize me).  It reminds me of the car dealership who tries to sell you on all the other stuff and says "well if you get this you'll need this....." and jacks up the price.  Like I said....I'm not saying that you do it, just referencing the point made.