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while i'm on my "high Horse"....
I know a lot of people in the industry are in it to be creative, artsy. whatever, and I applaud that...but I know those same people aren't just doing it for fun....WE ALL WANT to MAKE $$$...and most have chosen to make a career of this. Sooooooo what pisses my off is the fact that I quote a new model a very reasonable session for her portfolio and the next "jac*@ff comes right behind me and undercuts me or even worse offers to do TFP/CD...I know as an aspiring model with little to No $$$ which are you gonna you take....but its crap like this that drives the fees we (photogs) are able to charge....and I'm sure models have the same problem on their side..... Feb 26 06 11:43 am Link  Feb 26 06 11:49 am Link Models certainly have the same problem, to some degree. There have definately been debates on here regarding rather TFP helps or hurts the industry, and of course everyone has their own opinion on it. The thing about a portfolio, it's more than just one good photoshoot. It's a lot of tear sheets with some quality photos in there, and from my understanding those pictures aren't from just one person- unless the agency has a staff photographer and has you redo your book using those. If sucks to feel like your services are being overlooked for someone willing to do TFP, understandabley frustrating. I haven't looked at your pictures, so honestly nothing I'm saying here is meant on a personal level. I've paid for quality portfolio shots, I've done the MUA thing, etc.... and those photos are beautiful. But I have some equally beautiful shots from TFP sessions. I use both. I want my book to show variety, and by choosing pictures from several different photographers, I'm able to do that. Feb 26 06 11:51 am Link Brian Diaz wrote: LOL, Brian. A diagram is worth a thousand words. Feb 26 06 11:52 am Link Free market forces! The Internet has changed things for the better and the worse. But for that matter, so has the digital camera. Feb 26 06 11:55 am Link Studio M Photography wrote: You sound like a Union leader Feb 26 06 11:57 am Link It's really simple. Trying to earn $$$ on the web for portfolio work with models is a zero sum operation. You're just going to become more frustrated. Either offer land-based portfolio and photography services or find a way to sell art prints or shoot the adult stuff. Those are pretty much your options. Feb 26 06 11:58 am Link heres the deal...you are not in a fashion area dealing with fashion models. you are in a commercial print area... every guy that has a digital camera shoots glammer (note i didn say glamour). models in our area need commercial print looks...99% of the gwcs not only dont have a clue what commercial print is and they wouldn't be interested in shooting it once they found out.....thats where the dollars are.. selling yourself to commercial clients or shooting commerical print images for models.. FYI: glamour images are worthless to the local models...completely worthless..you wont see glamour images on any comp card from any local agency.. so let the GWCs do the glammer until the cows come home..theres not a penny in it..go after the work, where there is money to be made.. Feb 26 06 12:02 pm Link Doug,great portfolio and I agree , I am buying books galore on commercial and Fashion stuff, and trying to learn it. I also refuse to buy the big ticket digital cameras, anything I have shot has been done with my old canon eos650's and film and whatever low price studio equipment i can pick up, I have a passion to learn photography and not digital manipulation. I may not be very good now but I believe in taking the time to learn and do the best job I can, and then I will have the liberty to gripe about money and fees.......we all have to start somewhere and and unfortunately some get very arrogant, but it is the true to hearts that will be here in the end...... Feb 26 06 12:13 pm Link Doug Swinskey wrote: What Doug said! Feb 26 06 12:15 pm Link Alan from Aavian Prod wrote: I think the internet has changed everything for the better. Those who are suffering the most are the buggywhip makers who resent Henry Ford. Feb 26 06 12:21 pm Link What good does whining do? If you want to make money with your camera you have two options: 1. Become Ansel Adams, or at least Helmut Newton. 2. Start shooting Weddings, or Sports Events (expect to be under paid for shooting Sports, especially at first). You can hallucinate about a perfect world in which you get paid what you are asking for when shooting models but reality will rear it's ugly head every time. PS Ask the models if this happens to them, or if they are actually making any money with their clothes on. Most of them don't get anywhere either and talent has very little to do with it. Have fun, shoot pictures. Feb 26 06 12:31 pm Link Damn those Founding Fathers and their desire to create a country of free market capitalism and democracy!! Feb 26 06 12:41 pm Link Michael Longeneker wrote: I love this tag line! I want it on a tank top or something. So true. (Though I never complain about the money when it comes around!) Feb 26 06 12:44 pm Link Eric S. wrote: Easy to say for someone on the top of the photographers foodchain... Feb 26 06 12:45 pm Link D. Brian Nelson wrote: Curse you Henry Ford!!! (I lost a bundle on buggywhip maker stock) Feb 26 06 12:47 pm Link lol. I'm still giving $300 from EVERY paid test shoot to the Humane Society. Problem is, models have no money... Feb 26 06 12:49 pm Link William Coleman wrote: Ditto Feb 26 06 12:52 pm Link I'm sorry you aren't getting any support for your rant, and I'm afraid I don't have any support to offer you. It is a supply-demand situation, and you just can't complain about competition undercutting your rates -- complaining will not do you any good. Question for the group: For the sake of this particular discussion, let's assume that "professional" means "a person who earns most of their livlihood from exercising their photographic craft". (And that means that someone earning a little extra cash while being supported by their spouse doesn't count.) What percentage of the photographers on MM are "professional"? I really have no idea, but I'm going to guess almost half. What percentage of the models on MM are "professional"? Again, I have no idea, but I'm going to guess less than 5%. Why is this important? I'm guessing that the models here on MM typically don't have gobs of cash to invest in establishing & promoting a "professional" model career, meaning that they can't afford to hire photographers on a regular basis, and they can't even afford the time it takes to do TFP/TFCD very often. So, I guess I'm saying that there isn't a lot of money in creating images for a model's portfolio, and it doesn't surprise me that models balk at doing a lot of TFP/TFCD. Feb 26 06 12:56 pm Link Studio M Photography wrote: Blame Sony, Epson and all the other digital imaging folks that have made photography a low cost comodity. Your business model of relying on models for revenue is about 10 to 20 years out of date. Feb 26 06 12:59 pm Link Studio M Photography wrote: I'm that jac*@ff, and proud of it. Feb 26 06 01:01 pm Link Studio M Photography wrote: I am. Studio M Photography wrote: Not me. In fact, based on the evidence, it looks like I'm doing this to go broke. Studio M Photography wrote: If you're talking about mainstream modeling, then maybe you should make an arrangement to work with referrals from a local brick and mortar agency, assuming your work compares well to other photographers that they use and assuming there are agencies in your city... Feb 26 06 01:04 pm Link Tim Hammond wrote: Holy shit! If you're stealing business from a guy in Florida, then you're my new hero. Tim Hammond wrote: Right on. Although you didn't have to sugar coat it like that. LOL! Feb 26 06 01:15 pm Link Doug Swinskey wrote: Absolute truth. Sadly, most people will probably disregard it. Feb 26 06 01:38 pm Link Well I can relate to what you're saying. But TFP/TFCD can be a good thing for those who don't have the funds to pay or hire someone to get started and keep going. But at the same time it can over whelm, and out source good potential paying jobs that give opportunity for some to earn a living or partial living off of what they love to do (modeling or photography). However, I see this being a bigger issue for models, than it is for photographers. I get more messages and e-mails from photographers that want me To HIRE them. Than I actually receive offers to BE HIRED as a model. I get contacts for more tfcd's with request for photo shoots involving me being desired to wear bikini's, lingerie, and implied nudity. If I request monetary compensation....the photographer/s all the sudden not as eager to work with me as before or anymore. Why? Because there are too damn many models out there that will take their cloths off and shoot for free. Big mistake. I think models ought to demand to be paid for at least doing bikini, lingerie, and implied nudity if they're already established a bit as a model and have some experience. If you're new and need to build your portfolio, than doing tfp/tfcd for bikini/lingerie/implied nudity is okay. But once you have a decent/nice portfolio...ladies please stop shooting with your cloths off for free. You only hurt the general standard of the way things should actually be. Feb 26 06 01:43 pm Link There are always people that are going to do it cheaper and better than you. Either find a way to move up or quit bitching. Feb 26 06 01:47 pm Link VirtuaMike wrote: Reminds me of a nice moment from the film "Million Dollar Baby". Hillary Swank, a boxer, is getting whipped in the ring. The round ends, and she sits on the stool, frustrated & whining. Clint Eastwood, her manager, indicates Swank's opponent & says, "She younger than you, she's stronger than you, and she's more experienced than you. What are you going to do?" The next round starts, Swank gets up & we watch Eastwood, the crowd goes wild, and Swank returns to stand next to Eastwood while the ref counts her opponent out. Feb 26 06 03:24 pm Link Studio M Photography wrote: I'm up for fun. If at some point I make a little cash, that's ok too, but it's not a priority for me. Most of the models in my port got "free" shoots. Studio M Photography wrote: Umm, no, this is the internet. Most of the photographers you find on the internet aren't trying to make a living from photography. If they are, they soon learn that pesky diagram and move into the brick and mortar world, or if they don't, they starve. Studio M Photography wrote: Thanks, I've been shopping for a new nick-name! at this time I am looking for a limited number of TFP/CD models.
Feb 27 06 12:37 am Link Farah Malika wrote: Ah..but the tear sheet. Feb 27 06 12:55 am Link I remember back in the bad old days when I shot mostly weddings. There was always another up and comer ready to do the job for less. Ditto any other area. Nature and wildlife photographers, a field never known for it's tendency to make millionaires, have taken a shitkicking from the plethora of well-heeled hobbyist photographers. Doctors, dentists and lawyers buy big glass and head off to the hotspots, and many come back with images worthy of publication. The thrill of seeing printed work is far more alluring to them than the paycheck, so it hurts the market. But life goes on. Aerial photography was always a profitable part of my business, but in the last few years an ultralight pilot with his own plane has been taking a big chunk of the local business. No use in crying about it...but I've adapted a more aggressive marketing strategy. That, and bought a little voodoo doll. Feb 27 06 12:58 am Link as "Hoot" pointed out I do have a 1 line staement on my profile that I am accepting limited number of TFP/CD sessions. Yes I do shoot TFP/CD from time to time....when I want to try out something new...or test new equipment. But on average..I am contacted ny 6-8 models per week saying they are interested in shooting with me....maybe its because I really suck and they figure "we" are both at the same level....don't know. But unless I am currently looking for TFP I usually can sell them on a paid shoot of some kind. So "Hoot" whats UR point?? Feb 27 06 12:01 pm Link Studio M Photography wrote: Well, "Studio M Photography" I find it ironic that a photographer offering TFP on at least two websites will go on a rant against photographers that shoot TFP. Maybe it's just me, but it sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too. Feb 27 06 01:15 pm Link let's address the irony you see....the rant is not against anyone that shoots OR models for tfp...per se...its the people who are driving the value of the profession down...but hey if you are comfortable giving away your work...more power to you. someone stated above they don't do it for $$ and in fact they tend to lose money....maybe we shouldn't have to lose $$$?? I would be just as pissed if it were a "low baller" with a wedding or portrait session...but just like modeling sessions you get what you pay for.... 2) and again TFP on a select and limited basis or if I need to experimant or test new equipment(thought that one was a no-brainer)...TFP is not just so I can shoot "pretty girls"....99% of my stuff is paid...may not be many gigs but paid. FYI I really don't like cake, I prefer pie. As far as bait and switch....don't know how you figure that. If you go to McDonalds...do they not try to "upsell" you the supersize? You know what you get for $3.00 but for .50 more you get even more....you can always say "no thanks" but how many ever really do?? That's sales and Marketing 101! And I know reading isn't a strong suit for many Mississippians...but I said I am contacted by 4-6 people a week, not that I shoot them all...If its any of yo biz...I might shoot 3-4 tfp or paid a month combined....model stuff is not my main income producer, just what I enjoy the most. and I have called no one in particular a jac*@ff..that would entail calling them by name...and sounds like you are the only one who took it that way. maybe someone fits the "low baller mode". and I never assumed anything about anyone as to why they are here..photog or model. Feb 27 06 03:57 pm Link Studio M Photography wrote: As a model myself, the quickest way to a turn off is to be offered one thing and then asked to do another. If you offer it as a freebie (more or less) and then try to upsell to a paid shoot you'll have another thing coming (essentially an open time slot). Personally, I'm not yet in the "biz" for the money (if I was I'd be broke and hungry), I'm just working on building an industry acceptable portfolio....If a photographer has a strength, concept, or artistic quality that I particularly enjoy AND they're willing to do that as a trade.... I'm game. It isn't that I don't (or haven't) paid for the services of a photographer....I'd just need to know it up front so I can make a decision on whether or not the cost is equally worth it to me. Feb 27 06 04:19 pm Link Th OP has a point but this is the new paradigm In 1992 1996 when web pages were a mystery I made $$$$$ building them Now, every snot 12 year old can do it. Even my kids So I dont build web pages anymore. I wrote 100K of code that is now in India maintained for $tiny per hour. I feel the pain of quoting a price and someone says 'my cousin has a camera he can do it for free'. So I dont do the TFP market. I work on building corporate customers. Even that market is dwindling - the rea estate market is full of GWCs also Those of us who do NOT do this parttime - we have full time costs and studio costs - feel the new paradigm in our pocketbook -hard! So it is unprofessional while a pro is talking to a customer to open your mouth right then and there and go "I can do that for free' Do it on your own time! Feb 27 06 04:32 pm Link Brandon I feel what ur sayin...let me do a quick explanation....If a model CONTACTS ME looking for TFP/CD If its something or one I am interested shooting I will let them know what is offered and waht they will get...ex cd, or # of prints, ammount of my time, number of looks, poses etc... My TFP is very minimum in what a model gets usually a set number of final images, set # of outfit changes and set max time for shoot. My pkg's that I charge for offer more a lot more. I am not pushy or offer a hard sell...but I do educate them as to why they might want more than say 1 outfit, more images etc....they can always decline and take the TFP?CD option. Let me stress this is when they CONTACT ME. if I initiate contact it is strictly TFP and I never ask for $$$. Feb 27 06 04:59 pm Link I know as a model I'd finally like getting paid for my talent it's been 3 years WHERES THE MONEY? How much longer must I model to earn pay? TFP is nice and all but 3 years of TFP it's getting out of hand. Feb 27 06 05:58 pm Link I'd guess I'm one of those people who make you crazy. I work exclusively on a time for images basis for the time being. Why? Because I'm brand new, pretty much everything is still a test for me. This is how I explore and learn. I don't see any of the talented and experienced shooters losing business because of me, though, which is why your post stumps me. If a model needs a certain kind of portfolio development, and needs it now for a specific purpose, she isn't going to come to me. I more often work with either a) new models, for whom my work is a step up from snapshots, or b) established models who are either willing to give a newbie a chance out of the goodness of their hearts, or are interested in doing something different from what they usually do. (They're often art models or hobbyists, for whom the next paycheck doesn't depend on me being reliable and consistent.) I'm shooting with an amazingly beautiful, talented, and experienced model next month who has already said that if I bungle absolutely every image, she doesn't care, because she just thinks it'll be fun to shoot with a girl for once, and she's doing it for the experience, not the photographs. People like me aren't taking your business. The photographers who can consistently deliver portfolio development images that will actually benefit a model in her career path (which takes some knowledge of what's needed with her goals - not all pretty pictures are equal) generally charge for that kind of work. Just like you. I really doubt you have all that much to worry about. Feb 27 06 06:15 pm Link Studio M Photography wrote: I don't think Floridians have any room to talk, considering they voted GWB in =P Feb 27 06 06:19 pm Link i would never give drugs to a horse Feb 27 06 06:23 pm Link |
damn scabs!
