Photographer
Dave Krueger
Posts: 2851
Huntsville, Alabama, US
Dammit. Double post! 
Photographer
Dave Krueger
Posts: 2851
Huntsville, Alabama, US
WhiteBears Visions wrote:
I've been doing this for 18 years, how bout you?
Even back in the late 80's-before the internet was common it was a common thing to hear models talking about the fear of getting raped/murdered on a shoot. Reread my post. I wasn't making an all-inclusive historical statement about whether models have been in state of fear about being raped and murdered. My specific point was that I didn't hear the media generally branding photographers as "perverts, pedophiles, rapists and killers" and the only place I did hear that sentiment recklessly applied was on the internet. I was not going back to a time before the internet.
Now, to address your "how about you" question. I honestly don't know and I'm too damn lazy to go check my negative files to play that game. Let's just say your 18 years wins. The last agency model I shot was in 1993 and the topic never came up with them. So, I've been shooting amateurs and internet models since then and during that time rarely did a model express worries about being raped or killed. Hell, I thought they should be more concerned. For example, I thought they should at least be checking references.
-Dave
Photographer
vanscottie
Posts: 1190
Winnetka, California, US
As usual there's soo much to say on this topic, and as usual it's all been said before too, but I will say this that most everyone seems to overlook, the steadfast idea that an escort actually equals safety.
IF I'm a complete nutjob, and IF I set up a "fake" MM/OMP/whatever photography page and IF I book you for an "out of the way" photo shoot, with the sole intent of doing nasty things Bill Curtis talks about on A&E, then you bringing your boyfriend, best bud, uncle Harry, whoever ain't gonna stop me!
If I can stab, shoot, pitchfork one of ya, i can do it to both of you,
the only pisser is I gotta dig twice as many shallow graves
Safety escort = falso argument
Photographer
CREATIVE MEDIA IMAGES
Posts: 67
Enterprise, Alabama, US
so what if they want to bring there family. whats the big deal? if they are relaxed you end up with better pics.
you shouldn't say anything during the shoot you can't say with hubby or boyfriend thier.
i have no problem with guest.
Photographer
Dave Krueger
Posts: 2851
Huntsville, Alabama, US
vanscottie wrote:
As usual there's soo much to say on this topic, and as usual it's all been said before too, but I will say this that most everyone seems to overlook, the steadfast idea that an escort actually equals safety.
If I can stab, shoot, pitchfork one of ya, i can do it to both of you,
the only pisser is I gotta dig twice as many shallow graves
Safety escort = falso argument That's why models should bring a whole entourage! 
Photographer
groupw
Posts: 521
Maricopa, Arizona, US
To me it all comes down to if you are going to be predator or prey. I've taught my wife and 2 daughters to be smart, be aware, be in charge. Women (and men) who act like victims WILL become victims. The same things that happen in the wild happen in "civilization". Predators do not attack other predators.
I don't care if a model brings an escort or not. In fact, on our first shoot I encourage an escort with the understanding they are not to interfere in the shoot, but may be asked to help with gear, etc...I let the model understand this should be someone they are comfortable helping to adjust their costumes, hair etc...for them.
I've only had 1 boyfriend at a shoot and he became a somewhat reluctant model in the shoot! I told him if you are there, you help as needed and I needed him in the shot!
Photographer
CREATIVE MEDIA IMAGES
Posts: 67
Enterprise, Alabama, US
Jim Sharp wrote:
Most fatal car accidents happen under 45mph and within 5 miles of your house. To stay on the good side of the odds, I always drive 100mph and never go home... LOL, now thats funny.......
Photographer
Marvin Dockery
Posts: 2243
Alcoa, Tennessee, US
Virtue Photography wrote:
There are approx 95,000 sexual assualts against females every year in America. 70% of them will be committed by a family member, close aquitance or boyfriend. Makes me wonder who these family members are that are raping and killing our young women.
Photographer
WBV Artography
Posts: 1370
San Antonio, Texas, US
Dave Krueger wrote:
That's why models should bring a whole entourage! Yeahhh...Sigh, never enough ground to get them all into. 
Dave-didn't mean to come across as pissy or anything. I could have worded it better but my dog was wanting to play-she's annoying like that every day at the exact time I start working on images. Never fails.
I think what has happened is that with the news happening and hitting the TV/internet within five minutes we get flooded with info-crappy, hyped info for the most part with a slant.
Not so much that photogs habitually do evil things but it gets played over and over and over and over again.
Slow day? Let's run that story about the guy that klled his neighbor. Hey! He had a polaroid camera and one pic of her in his house! Must have been a photographer-go with it!
"Photographer kills..."
Hasn't been that many post office shooting either but they still call it 'Going Postal".
Photographer
MartinCoatesIV
Posts: 450
Panama City Beach, Florida, US
Phoenix E wrote:
the same rules apply to every social interaction in life....whether with a photographer or not.....
i would NEVER go to a strangers house by myself....i always hang out with people in a public/social setting multiple times before being alone with them in an isolated place. it's just basic safety.
if you know the photographer--well, yes, then there is no reason to bring an escort. however, if you have never met the photographer before, why on earth wouldn't you bring someone with you? Ok. Lets keep it simply most model are young women, most photographers are older men usually with about a hundred pound difference between them. We should go out of are way to make them feel safe as long as it doesnt interfere with the art.
As for me. I like to do a pre-shoot meet in a public place (it also cuts down no shows) so the person can meet me and we can discuss the shoot, lets her feel safe. Escorts are ok but I dont allow it to be parents or Boy friend (bad past experieces) and I dont pay for escorts (not that I'ver paid more than providing a meal for the model [insert model dont eat joke here] ). As for that Im not sure what else i can do to make it more safter feeling to workk with me.
Martin IV
Photographer
SolraK Studios
Posts: 1213
Atlanta, Georgia, US
Phoenix E wrote:
i have a BA in biology and had to take a lot of statistics classes. you can pretty much prove whatever you want with the right analysis. kudos of passing your stats class but really that doesn't make you an expert!
bring an escort if you like or tell him/her to stay home that's not my business BUT everyday more women are raped by ppl they know and NOT by ppl they don't know!
If you don't trust the photographer then don't work with him/her. I have to trust you and hope that you won't show up at my door step with some goon and beat the living crap out of me and my MUA. Afterwards leaving us tied together naked bleeding on the floor.
Photographer
Boho Hobo
Posts: 25351
Santa Barbara, California, US
MartinCoatesIV wrote:
Ok. Lets keep it simply most model are young women, most photographers are older men usually with about a hundred pound difference between them. We should go out of are way to make them feel safe as long as it doesnt interfere with the art. I'm sorry but it's not just a male -female thing. I'm an older female. I am increasingly being contacted by female models who want to work with me, but tell me they require an escort. WHY? There is no gender dynamic, and if one is likely stronger than the other it's the wannabe suicide girl with 20 inch spike steel heels. Moreover, why contact me, telling me it would be really cool to work with me, but in the same breath you're afraid to not have someone with you? That's just weird to me, sorry.
Photographer
VRG Photography
Posts: 1025
Tallahassee, Florida, US
If a person is THAT apprehensive about shooting with me without an escort, then maybe we shouldn't shoot, I don't know.
I say that because:
- I contact the model a few times BEFORE we shoot, so that we can get to know each other a little better. Meeting for the first time AT the shoot doesn't always work too well.
- When I shoot on location, it's not in some secluded spot in the woods. There are usually people around, or people who will eventually be around.
- I usually have a Makeup artist with me when I shoot
- When I shoot in the studio, since it's not mine, the studio owner is on site 95% of the time. They don't want anything happening in their studio, so they stick around to protect their investment. (They are usually in their office, or public area of their studio while I shoot.
All of this "escort bringing" makes me wonder if I should bring one, as well.
With all of the people mentioned above at the shoot, do we really NEED another person?
Photographer
VRG Photography
Posts: 1025
Tallahassee, Florida, US
KM von Seidl wrote:
I'm sorry but it's not just a male -female thing. I'm an older female. I am increasingly being contacted by female models who want to work with me, but tell me they require an escort. WHY? There is no gender dynamic, and if one is likely stronger than the other it's the wannabe suicide girl with 20 inch spike steel heels. Moreover, why contact me, telling me it would be really cool to work with me, but in the same breath you're afraid to not have someone with you? That's just weird to me, sorry. It's weird to me, too.
If someone is that interested in shooting with you, then you would think that they've done enough research to trust you and your professionalism.
Photographer
lll
Posts: 12295
Seattle, Washington, US
The biggest cause of death is....well...living.
Photographer
Richard Beebe
Posts: 217
Tracy, California, US
Virtue Photography wrote:
There are approx 95,000 sexual assualts against females every year in America. 70% of them will be committed by a family member, close aquitance or boyfriend. Reported sexual assults - key word being reported. Many assaults don't receive any follow-up legal attention.
Photographer
Indochine
Posts: 609
Los Angeles, California, US
I don't think the OP was entirely joking in his post. I think the last part took on a tongue-in-cheek tone, e.g., about using photogs as protectors, but for the most part, I think VP was serious.
Photographer
Richard Beebe
Posts: 217
Tracy, California, US
Virtue Photography wrote:
Many female models will bring a friend or boyfriend to a photoshoot for safety reasons... Whether referred to as their "safety" of "comfort," it certainly shows in the images if the model is NOT comfortable in their photos. That so many images in portfolios here (and elsewhere - it's not a MM-exclusive issue) where the model's eyes tell their comfort level, and it's simply NOT there - worry, discomfort, whatever else. Worse, the photographers didn't even see it, then pause the session just to make sure things within the model's head were OK. And, apparently the model also didn't catch it in their own photos, because they posted them to their portfolios, too.
I guess I spent too much time covering weddings, where an unhappy-looking bride causes trouble with her mother (and if you lose her, you're sunk, because she'll make sure everyone else knows).
Photographer
Jim Sharp
Posts: 360
Paxton, Illinois, US
WhiteBears Visions wrote:
Yeahhh...Sigh, never enough ground to get them all into.
Dave-didn't mean to come across as pissy or anything. I could have worded it better but my dog was wanting to play-she's annoying like that every day at the exact time I start working on images. Never fails.
I think what has happened is that with the news happening and hitting the TV/internet within five minutes we get flooded with info-crappy, hyped info for the most part with a slant.
Not so much that photogs habitually do evil things but it gets played over and over and over and over again.
Slow day? Let's run that story about the guy that klled his neighbor. Hey! He had a polaroid camera and one pic of her in his house! Must have been a photographer-go with it!
"Photographer kills..."
Hasn't been that many post office shooting either but they still call it 'Going Postal". Shark attacks were big on TV one year too. That was a year that had a below average number of them. But the coverage of them was up like 400%.
Photographer
Boho Hobo
Posts: 25351
Santa Barbara, California, US
Richard Beebe wrote:
Whether referred to as their "safety" of "comfort," it certainly shows in the images if the model is NOT comfortable in their photos. That so many images in portfolios here (and elsewhere - it's not a MM-exclusive issue) where the model's eyes tell their comfort level, and it's simply NOT there - worry, discomfort, whatever else. Worse, the photographers didn't even see it, then pause the session just to make sure things within the model's head were OK. And, apparently the model also didn't catch it in their own photos, because they posted them to their portfolios, too.
I guess I spent too much time covering weddings, where an unhappy-looking bride causes trouble with her mother (and if you lose her, you're sunk, because she'll make sure everyone else knows). Yeah, but the discomfort I tend to see are women having to hold strange poses or the dental floss bikini they're wearing is wedged uncomfortably someplace. Lets face it,commercial models are put through all sorts of crappy uncomfortably situations, swim shots in freezing water etc, and they manage to look good. Of the crappy shots I see on MM I really haven't seen any that I would pause and attribue it to the lack of an escort. Rather, it might just be that the model sucks at being a model.
Model
Autumn Bleuu
Posts: 286
Atlanta, Georgia, US
KM von Seidl wrote:
I have an issue with llama herders. What do you question about me?
I am an older female photographer who has ADD so I get distracted relatively easily. I'm an admitted control freak who doesn't particularly want the model's attention to be on anything other than my direction.
Admittedly, I have been turned on by a few women in my life, but never a model. But then again, I've never worked with Theda. ; )
I can't speak for the male photographer-- female model dynamic, but I get pretty tired of this constant assumption that every photographer is a male and that therefore any photographer (who has to be a male right??? I mean women can't really figure out how to use cameras can they??) who doesn't particularly want a third wheel skulking about has some secret motive. Well I understand your concern there. But think about it. Most people can't help but to assume that the photographer would ideally be male, when the industry and profession is dominated by males. I don't have exact figures, but from what I have observed is that the ratio of female to male photographers is 15F/85M. I'm a female and I study photography....but I still assume that most photographers are going to be male. The issue isn't really directed at the female photographers as it is to the male photographers....but even with a female photographer...I still prefer to bring an llama herder or make up artist with me for safety reasons. You never know if that female photographer is a serial killer or not. lol Seriously, I trust no one, until I get to know them after working with them first. I understand photographers would have some fear of safety as well, but for a model it just seems even more critical. I haven't stepped fully onto the other side yet to see what it is like for photographers .I practice shoot with friends, family, and inanimate objects. So I don't sense or understand the same fears most photographers do. I would like to see more women get into photography though. It's a very interesting technique and art.
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