KARLOS MATTHEWS wrote:

Image-N-More LLC wrote:
not all of them and i only manage models that just started off and didnt know how to go about things so kinda called manage but i really just advise them.

hmm....
advisor  AKA manager with out a licence

and if you noticed, our alert moderators sent him far away from the land of MM - guess he didn't read the rules - no sluggos allowed

Select Models wrote:
....... I think I'll just call Nikki up tomorrow and ask her what her goals are........

Gary... just curious if you are such a hemorrhoid to everyone or just me in particular?
The key point here is "what her goals WERE" then.  Not now... as I don't care.  She had much different goals THEN.  I'm sure many years later (and too late to start fresh with agencies) her goals are now much different.  I'm glad for her to be doing whatever it is that she is doing... and I'm glad you get some thrill out of whatever it is you do... and wrangle others to do as well.
Now climb out of my ass and move on.....

CristinaLex wrote:
Well my models opinion says that you did the right thing...because your work is awesome and 50% of photographers that shoot as good as you do usually dont let the model have such privilages or even have all the pictures for that matter...it was good for her to have manager but then again i dont think her "manager" has that much experience to be knowing what is to be held as Equal rights for the phtotographs....unless they paid for them thats different...but when you do a tfp with an awesome photographer...then it is a privilage to the model that he is working with you because he doesn't neccessarily have to....soo kudos to u

Thanks for the kind words about my port.  (Now leave some comments or tags, 'cause nobody else is.)

SLE Photography wrote:
LOL, never heard that term before, where'd it come from?

https://modelmayhem.com/posts.php?thread_id=4956

Frank Tammen wrote:
Here's a paragraph from my OMP site; works perfect and weeds out the garbage, leaving me with top professionals who are incredibly fun to work with.

"However, if you need control or approval from an agent or significant-other, well, then, HighPoint will have to take a pass on you. From our end, we are The Decision-Maker, and expect to deal only with The Decision-Maker (you) on your end. You must possess the confidence and intelligence to call your own shots.  Please, no victims, no defenseless waifs, no suckers...we don't have time for it."

Don't be surprised if you wake up tomorrow and everybody has copied your verbage word for word. lol

bel panther wrote:
I absolutely agree. I am sooo free and creative when there is no "loved one" or whoever is from my side.. its okay when you are meeting for first time to talk not photoshoot unless she is a minor!

Agreed.  Thanks for the input.

Steven Bigler wrote:
She had much different goals THEN.  Now climb out of my ass and move on.....

Yeah right... I'm sure Nikki sat down and discussed with you IN DETAIL exactly what her goals were... especially after you wasted her time and trashed the rolls of film you shot of her... ROTFLMAO! 

When you start dogging an MM model (MM#86696) in a public forum with a claim of how undesirable you think she is to work with... ESPECIALLY when its a model I've worked with several times and had great success with, that's when I have to take issue with your snotty ass remarks...



Shot of Nikki at last years 'Laguna Beach Photoshoot'!

Jeffrey Rich wrote:
I actually "manage" several models, and my role is unpaid.  I do it for models that I really like, think have potential, and may be taken advantage of.  I don't go to shoots, but review the photo requests to put in my opinion of the photographer and share my knowledge of their reputation.  I'll also share info on jobs with the models and recommend them for acting and modeling jobs.  Only rarely do I even talk with the photographer.

I do stuff like that all the time.  I don't call it managing.  I call it being a friend.  For the people that I have worked with, I like to look out for them.  If I see a job I think they'd be a good fit for, I send them them info.  If they ask for my opinion/advice, I give to them in the best way possible (always letting them know that they need to remember, I'm an industry OUTSIDER and much of what I say is merely OPINION and may be completely worthless/wrong).

Torrence Williams wrote:

Well I Ihate that you have a great disliking toward managers.  I am a photographer, and I also "manage"/ help models as well., in the sense that I have connections with people. (So in essence I am a just a helpful photographer.) As a "manager" I arrange shoots, lead the models to book jobs, etc. I sometimes do basic background checks on new clients, and some photogs, just to make sure they are legitimate. It is for the sheer safety of the models, and the security of their financial compensation, (if any). That is a managers/friends job, to look after your friend or fellow man... "Am I my brother's keeper". A good photographer/friend/human being would try to ensure the same things.
As far as accompanying a model to a shoot, NO, I don't do that.. These are grown, and supposedly responsible individuals...
On the photographer side... Only the model, and hairstylist are allowed "on set" period...  I do agree that the shoot is the time for the Model and photographer to "feed" off of one another, to maximize creativity, and focus on the goal of the shoot.. No need for outside distractions...

first off, as you can clearly read, I'm not the only one who dislikes managers, second, why does a grown woman need help arranging a photo shoot? Does she not know how to use a Daybook, a Calendar? How hard is it to check references, does she not know how to email people that the photog has worked with and ask, "How is this dude? Is he gonna beat me up and steal my lunch money?"

Again, my main issue is GOING THRU YOU, Three times in five years the model said yes to me, the manager either never got back to me or said no because (I later found out from her) that he too was a photog and jealous that my work was better than his. If two people want to shoot and it isn't a big agency/contract job, why does a 3rd person need to be involved??

Dan  Hood  MM/Moderator wrote:
I hope everybody here realizes the Model Mayhem has a no "net" manager (sluggo) policy. If you contact a model and some sluggo answers back please use the contact a mod feature https://www.modelmayhem.com/contactamod.php and it will be dealt with!

Very nice to hear! Thet "suck the life" out of many potential shoots.

Arca Imaging wrote:
I’m an artist the work I create is a collaboration.  I always give my models equal rights.

That is quite generous of you.

Will I really like your work, I don't understand why you would give "equal rights". 

I will give equal rights when the model pays equal for the studio rental, the mua, provides equal help setting up and tearing down the studio, pays equal cost of my equipment and provides equal time and work in post-production (digital darkroom).

I, personally, did not invest $25,000 in equipment to "give away" rights that I am legally entitled to.

While, indeed, the collaboration is there, it should suffice for permission to use the images is sufficient.  I personally believe you are creating a dangerous precedent in giving "equal rights".  The model would come to expect it and be woefully disappointed when no other photographer will do the same.

D'Magi Visual Concepts wrote:
...But when you bring your so-called manager, you are throwing a wrench in the works.  You are constantly looking to them for approval or suggestions instead of relying on the photographers skill, expertise and creativity.  Managers do not see what the camera sees...

I can definitely relate with that on at least 3 shoots/occasions and each time was a little annoying, because amateurs get carried away with looking to the manager/boyfriend. What keeps me from getting bent is that I realize they are amateurs and learning how to model. So, I'm a lot more patient, understanding and tolerant than usual.

D'Magi Visual Concepts wrote:
...Her manager decided she (the manager is female) would HAND-WRITE a  reciprical release of her own, stating that the model had EQUAL rights to the images. 
...

Now, that is something that would never fly in a business deal...introducing a change of that magnitutde in midstream, or after the fact. One should approach it like a proper negotiation to allow the photographer time to consider the impact, if s/he will consider it at all.

It's a good thing you stood your ground man. Otherwise, you would've given those two the message that it's acceptable behavior. Then, the next thing you know, the next wave of OMP'ers and MySpace'ers coming to MM will have the expectation they can get away with stuff like that. Word gets around.

BeccaNDSouth wrote:
After reading this thread, it has just confirmed my own reasons why I don't use a manager. For one, it's pointless. Also, why would someone want to even bring a manager to a photoshoot with them? I would think that in itself is just unprofessional. I can see taking a reliable escort if there are no wardrobe stylists or mua's there at the shoot, but more often than not (unless you are working with a GWC) there will be atleast a mua there....or even another model.

Shoot, I have a hard enough time getting shoots with photographers right now, why would I be stupid and hinder that even more by involving a manager. Geesh!
So anyone who ever contacts me to shoot, you can take comfort in knowing that it is me replying (and yes, I do respond to my e-mails unlike some), and I will not in any way involve a manager.

okay so uh how long have you been "modeling"?

Select Models wrote:
..... of how undesirable you think she is to work with.........

Can you try to misquote me a bit more? 
I never had a problem with Nikki... I had it with John (Jon?)
I did not unspool the film in front of Nikki... I did it in front of "manager / boyfriend / whatever" John.
I did not have a discussion with John about what she wanted to do... I had it with her, and yes at length and for a number of days.  I had her go to a salon to have her tragic trashed hair fixed and a few other things to 'clean her up'.

Gary really save it... you don't have a clue about me or my past / present / future,
or my dealings with others.
....and could you have made her thighs look any THICKER?!!!!!

You peddle your workshops and make bank (I assume) creating more as ill qualified as yourself... yet I say nothing.  I really don't care... do what you do... but stop trying to fuck with me.

I'd offer to give you a clinic... but I really couldn't give 2 shits about you.

-done.

UnoMundo Photography wrote:
last Mom showed up: after I posed the model would tell her to tun this way that way. To hell with my lighting scheme

and then her CHECK BOUNCED!


so all 'managers' sit outside and wait. period!

Damn!!!  I hear you. 

Like I said, never again.  I'm through...Done...Kupudt!!!

Stephen Bodi wrote:
There has to be a disctinction made between real agent/managers and some kind of lowlife or another.

Yup your right Streve and he's a great guy too.

paul

Steven Bigler wrote:

Can you try to misquote me a bit more? 
I never had a problem with Nikki... I had it with John (Jon?)
I did not unspool the film in front of Nikki... I did it in front of "manager / boyfriend / whatever" John.
I did not have a discussion with John about what she wanted to do... I had it with her, and yes at length and for a number of days.  I had her go to a salon to have her tragic trashed hair fixed and a few other things to 'clean her up'.

Gary really save it... you don't have a clue about me or my past / present / future,
or my dealings with others.
....and could you have made her thighs look any THICKER?!!!!!

You peddle your workshops and make bank (I assume) creating more as ill qualified as yourself... yet I say nothing.  I really don't care... do what you do... but stop trying to fuck with me.

I'd offer to give you a clinic... but I really couldn't give 2 shits about you.

-done.

Why such a fuss over this girl??? she is nothing special and if she is sleeping or brining her manger to shoots in the first place why even bother with her. There are over 2 billion potential models on this planet, why is this such a big deal. photographers get out of the studio and network with your local hair salons and shoe stores and clothing stores were girls like to shop and get there nails done. this is were you will find all the !new faces! and not have to worry about all of the wannabe manager.

Robert

Scaramanga wrote:
There is a model here that I was going to shoot with but it was ruined by arrogant, pushy managers. Now a "set" of this model's most recent photos recently hit the net--typical, cheesy hotel room type photos you see for internet models. Just seemed sad to me. She could have gotten significantly better pics but her managers had to step in and turn everything into a nightmare.

Oh, and I did attempt to get everything in writing upfront. That's one way to smoke out a rattlesnake, I tell you. Get into the details. The devil is in 'em.

hey..just curious: what made them arrogant and pushy? What did they do that you consider arrogant and pushy?

Dan  Hood  MM/Moderator wrote:
Well since this discussion is about a incident in California California rules apply

It is not the job of a "manager" to get work for models. In fact, in California it's illegal for a manager to get work for models. The person who gets work for models is an "agent". In California an "agent" must be licensed and bonded.

A "Manager" is responsible for everything or anything that enhances the development of an artist career. They can give advise, counsel talent/artist in the entertainment industry. Managers can also act as a liaison between their client(s) and talent agent. MANAGERS CAN NOT OBTAIN OR PROCURE EMPLOYMENT FOR AN ARTIST!

Thank you for posting this, I was having an issue reading this and seeing alot of people (no names) interchange "Manager" with "Agent". And as you say a Manager can't procure work for a talent but can they contract negotiate a contract? Something tells me they can.

Stephen Bodi wrote:
So far I have met only 1 agent/manager who fit all the criteria for being a good agent and one other who fit most of the criteria. Other than those 2 people pretty much every "manager/agent" who has ever introduced themselves to me has been some kind of lowlife or another.

There is a distinction between Manager and Agent there is no such thing as a Agent/Manager you can not be both.

Dan  Hood  MM/Moderator wrote:
Well since this discussion is about a incident in California California rules apply

It is not the job of a "manager" to get work for models. In fact, in California it's illegal for a manager to get work for models. The person who gets work for models is an "agent". In California an "agent" must be licensed and bonded.

A "Manager" is responsible for everything or anything that enhances the development of an artist career. They can give advise, counsel talent/artist in the entertainment industry. Managers can also act as a liaison between their client(s) and talent agent. MANAGERS CAN NOT OBTAIN OR PROCURE EMPLOYMENT FOR AN ARTIST!

NightShadows wrote:
Thank you for posting this, I was having an issue reading this and seeing alot of people (no names) interchange "Manager" with "Agent". And as you say a Manager can't procure work for a talent but can they contract negotiate a contract? Something tells me they can.

They can advise their client as to the terms (such as compensation, useage, etc).  Legal advice as to the contract needs to come from a lawyer.

A lot of managers are really nothing more than unlicensed agents trying to use the title manager to get around the law.  The primary things a manager can't do is to directly procure work, enter into contracts on behalf of their client as well as they can't bill or collect.

What a manager can do that an agent cannot is to be a producer, director, casting director or photographer.  They can also own the projects that there talent is participating.   Agents are generally barred from anything involving production (a good example is agents can't have staff photographers sell you photos or they can't produce a movie).  Due to a change in the rules, agents can now have a small financial interest in films and projects their talent is invovled in.

Managers do have some of the same ethical issues though.  As an example a manager should not sell photos to their client, i.e. a model should not be paying their manager to shoot their portfolio.

Bear in mind that this is how it works in California, it is not the same all over the country.  California allows an agent to also be a manager.  However, if an agent is a manager as well, they still are subject to the same restrictions as any other agent.

I hope that helps.

NightShadows wrote:
There is a distinction between Manager and Agent there is no such thing as a Agent/Manager you can not be both.

Absolutely! A point I made above.

The model manager's duty is to their client who is ONLY THE MODEL.

The model agent's duty is to their client WHO IS NEVER THE MODEL.

You can not negotiate for a model's services from both sides of that equation at once.

Studio36

NightShadows wrote:
There is a distinction between Manager and Agent there is no such thing as a Agent/Manager you can not be both.

In California, where Dan is making his observations, the Labor Code (the sections that govern agents) specifically provides that an agent CAN also be a manager.

Something to understand though is that, in California, all contracts used by an agency must be submitted to the labor commissioner for approval before they can be used by the agent.  The Labor Commissioner will review the contract to be certain that the management side of the agreement is fashioned appropriately.

Also, you need to understand that because a manager cannot procure work, he can't charge a fee tied to getting a model a job.  In California, a manager typically takes 15% of the entire annual income from the talent from the area they are managing.

For example, if an actress has a manager for her acting career, she might have an agent for theatrical and one for TV commercials.  The manager will take his percentage from all the jobs the actress gets irrespective of which agent gets her work.

Agents, on the other hand, take their percentage only on the jobs they procure for them.  For modeling that is typically 15%-25%.  For acting, it is typically 10%, but if it is union work, that will be paid by the producer, not taken out of the model's wages.

You will note though that many modeling agencies call themselves Model Management.  I happen to agree that in many cases, being both a manager and an agent is a conflict of interest.  It is not uncommon in California though, particularly in modeling.  Most models don't have a separate manager.

Side Effects Studio wrote:
Help me understand something, (sincerely!) - is there a legit, professional situation that would merit needing a model manager if you aren't a fulltime working model?

None, except in a friendly advisory capacity, perhaps -- if the manager is knowledgeable. Perhaps as an assistance in putting a proper book together and acquiring a good agency (a finders fee paid by the agency -- not the talent), or help in determining what might be appropriate for that book; aid in avoiding the pointless shoot, etc. All advisory at best/worst.

A professional personal manager guides working talent. You can't manage a career that doesn't exist, and until then it had best be advisory. PS. Agencies run fast and hard from new talent with managers they don't know.

Cheers!
the oldguy

oldguysrule wrote:
PS. Agencies run fast and hard from new talent with managers they don't know.

Cheers!
the oldguy

For exactly the same reason this thread was started.

Studio36

images by elahi wrote:

okay so uh how long have you been "modeling"?

off and on for six years. No, I'm not a professional...however, that does not mean I shouldn't act professionally in business matters. I've been approached by managers before, had a couple trying to get me to hire them, but after reading into their offers and contracts, and learning from other models/photographers, etc...I find that it just isn't worth messing with right now. I feel that managers are only needed when you are getting so much work that you and you agency(ies) can not handle all of it by yourself. Only then, though, and you should work with a legitimate management firm, not just some guy you pick up off of a website or something.

azzara wrote:
D'Magi Visual Concepts,
ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!!   Won't have it.  I am easy going as could be but one thing I wont deal with is a model who is "managed"  by some clown photographer or dating partner on MM or OMP (seems to be more on OMP) pretending to be more than he or she is. Most have no contacts and no ability to get the model work and whose only purpose is to load images on an online port like MM or OMP.  They get in the way from second ONE and The SECOND i hear  "Well my manager..."  I AM GONE!!

Not to mention the fact that a lot of models/talent don't realize the difference between a manager and an agent. Some girls think if they put down a photographer on "that other site" as their manager, then this photographer will act as an agent and find work for her. It doesn't work like that. Then again, I think it's idiotic to claim a photographer (or even another model...seen it done before) as a manager. I would think that the photographer, if he is professional, or anything more than just a GWC, would be too busy to worry about dealing with a model's bookings and business affairs. I would think that if the photographer is good enough, he/she is too busy doing their own work, getting their own shoots lined up, submitting their own work to magazines and agencies, to even think about messing with managing a model. Then again, that is just an opinionated guess.

RFAphoto wrote:
10 years ago would they have been demanding that you have the Negatives or transparencies duped so they get a set too? No thanks...

You'd be amazed.  20+ years ago, I shot twice with a girl who was, to put it mildly, infamous (anyone out there who was in Chicago in 1981-82 and remembers the cult-like Reader personals about Veronica?).  She was actually very nice and very down to earth in person, not at all like her rep, and we got some pretty good stuff.  But the second shoot she brought a friend along to help with makeup, a girl who was in business school at the time and who could be a little tricky to deal with.  That time she behaved herself, even got in a few pictures.

About a year later, I got a call from the model with a bizarre request to do a shoot on an unspecified theme, but... get this... she wanted to keep the negatives.  Since no one was offering to pay, of course I said no.  She tried to convince me for an hour, finally gave up, and I never heard from her again.  Last I heard she was still tending bar somewhere in the 'burbs, but that was years ago.  Anyway, I'm assuming that this scheme was hatched by her friend  who obviously had delusions of being a manager.

In a strange karmic twist, the friend appeared at a 2003 exhibit of my punk era work, and bought several hundred dollars worth of prints.

Ken Mierzwa wrote:
About a year later, I got a call from the model with a bizarre request to do a shoot on an unspecified theme, but... get this... she wanted to keep the negatives.  Since no one was offering to pay, of course I said no.

I'm confused.  Doesn't everyone give negatives away for free?

Alan from Aavian Prod wrote:
I'm confused.  Doesn't everyone give negatives away for free?

Sure, Alan... a lot of us here are accused of being very negative and we give it away free. Often in copious quantities.



Studio36

azzara wrote:
D'Magi Visual Concepts,
ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!!   Won't have it.  I am easy going as could be but one thing I wont deal with is a model who is "managed"  by some clown photographer or dating partner on MM or OMP (seems to be more on OMP) pretending to be more than he or she is. Most have no contacts and no ability to get the model work and whose only purpose is to load images on an online port like MM or OMP.  They get in the way from second ONE and The SECOND i hear  "Well my manager..."  I AM GONE!!

Now that is funny, the guy who hates "sluggos"  so much yet is one of the King sluggos himself.  19 little hotties in his omp stable
http://member.onemodelplace.com/member.cfm?P_ID=5516

The hypocrisy around here is amazing