markcomp wrote:

I sincerely wonder how much of that is the case.

You'd be quite surprised...  I've seen alot in my career as an image maker - the startup is always the target...  And the only way to get any real respect is to take out a pro...  And one day a startup will take you out...  It's a timeless quandry - age and experience vs. hunger and optimism...

DeBoer Photography wrote:

Are you equating professional photographers with artists?  Therein lies your mistake.

Yes, and I think herein lies the problem.

jon horsethief wrote:
jesus h christ.
so, how old were, you, exactly, when you lost track of the fact that yes, Virginia, even your shit stinks too?

Who's Virginia?  And how do you know that her shit stinks?  And why do we need to know that here?

Jack D Trute wrote:

I see both sides of this issue.

I agree with the first statement often but not very rarely the second.
Many times you do have people that are prone to being ripped off and cannot handle the truth.

Many times you have people giving out advice that is just wrong.
Many times you have people asking if they can be models and well no, they really should not.
Many time you do have people pumping there chests to gain favor from others.
What are they trying to sell you?
Most often someone is trying to sell you something,  even if it is a free visit to their ego if not their Id.
If images make you smile great but if you are asking for a truthful answer or if you "can" make it,  well do not expect it sugur coated.

If you are giving out just bad advice or trying to scam people then do not be surprised if someone who knows better sticks their over sized ego in to tell you that you are just wrong.
Do many on the web need to go to the Jack D Trute school of Diplomacy?
You bet your ass they do.   But you often need that strength to make it in this business.
Just because a person does not like what is being said does not mean it is not the truth or at least their version of it.

I have no problem with the truth and if I wanted to be a pro photographer I would ask a pro what he/she thought of my work.
What I am referring to is the many times where a subject is brought out and a Pro, wheather their work is pleasing or not, just rips them.
I do not understand that mentality... In any profession.

markcomp wrote:
I'm not sure what that means.

what i meant wasn't directed at you.
if you haven't heard someone get told they're acting "like their shit don't stink", well, now you have.

model7299 wrote:
okay, I can't take it any longer...

what does GWC stand for?

Guy with camera.  A label which if you are not a Pro you usually get stuck with.

Jack D Trute wrote:
Are you seeking an answer to the question posted by this thread?   Or otherwise.

Jack I agree..... (with content of your other reply)

I have been honest many times (hell I'm honest ALL THE TIME!) ... and in bothering to say... "work on this" or "don't quit your day job" I have been banned... what 4 or 5 times?!!!  Honesty here does not bode well it seems.

As well many (of those not ACTUALLY in the biz) seem to give off the impression that those that make it are "professional" "moral" and "nice"..... that is most certainly not that case, (I know so many first hand!).  More often than not those that are the creatively best are arrogant assholes that are either well conected or have great agents that do all the 'go between' work.

Artists are more often than not... artists!  ie rule breakers from outside the box.  Yes there are a few that came from banking and conveyed that into a strong business dicipline... as are many people HERE... but in the real world (of working editorial fashion photographers) -that is NOT the case.

I am done with this rant... so save the attacks on my behalf... as I know this will only down spiral downhill debating the merits of what I said.  (ignore typos... I can't be bothered to edit.)

jon horsethief wrote:

what i meant wasn't directed at you.
if you haven't heard someone get told they're acting "like their shit don't stink", well, now you have.

Actaully yes, I have heard it and now that I reread the thread I understand where it was headed.

DeBoer Photography wrote:
I saw another thread that had a well-known and respected professional go head-to-head with an "expert" on here and the professional "conceded"...and left MM.
Denoy

Denoy... sounds like fun... I'll go play with them!!!  What is the thread?

jon horsethief wrote:
also, the best way to acquire skills and abilities is to kill someone and eat them. be it human, animal, or professional photographer.

I have heard that.  Unfortunatley you gain their memories as well.  Bad crap.

DeBoer Photography wrote:
Are you equating professional photographers with artists?  Therein lies your mistake.

Hate to break the news to you but photographers are artists...  Wether they be professional or not...  It isn't the tool that defines you - it is simply the avenue of profficiency that one chooses...  A photographer uses a camera becuase he enjoys it, a painter a brush, an illustrator a pencil, a model their body.  But they all use their respective tools to express their visions.  There may not ever be a common defition of what an "artist" is - but all artists express...

Dave Krueger wrote:
Well, at least no one is going to acuse you of starting a thread and then abandoning it without responding to the replies....

-Dave

I was seeking an answer.

Sara Green wrote:
* accountant enters the forum*

I am an accountant, CPA eligible and a member for several years of state CPA society... In all of those meetings and interactions, there was never the activity to the extent it is on here ["so why do I see so many slamming post by those who do absolutley nothing to edify the art as a whole?"]. I believe this is for several reasons:
- it's a different industry
- the interactions were in their place of business (eg an office, with lots of really ugly furniture) not somewhat-anon posting on the internet
- most accountants have "bean counter" personalities... If you don't know what that means, it is the opposite of an auto sales man... very different from the creative personalities attracted to artistic pursuits

and I...well...just have balanced right and left brains

CPAs usually get respect in the real world.  Many photographers don't.  Thus, they take it out on the next guy down the food chain.

jon horsethief wrote:
also, the best way to acquire skills and abilities is to kill someone and eat them. be it human, animal, or professional photographer.

Guess that explains the current shortage of mentors...

markcomp wrote:

I have no problem with the truth and if I wanted to be a pro photographer I would ask a pro what he/she thought of my work.
What I am referring to is the many times where a subject is brought out and a Pro, wheather their work is pleasing or not, just rips them.
I do not understand that mentality... In any profession.

Many people on the www complain that the incognito aspect of posting in forums makes for a mob rules environment where anyone can get away with saying anything...I like it...I'm a firm believer in "What goes around comes around"...I find these conversations extremely revealing...

markcomp wrote:

Guy with camera.  A label which if you are not a Pro you usually get stuck with.

ahh I see.  I knew it had some bad connotation to it, but as to what it was, I was unsure.  Thanks for the info

Steven Bigler wrote:
Jack I agree..... (with content of your other reply)

I have been honest many times (hell I'm honest ALL THE TIME!) ... and in bothering to say... "work on this" or "don't quit your day job" I have been banned... what 4 or 5 times?!!!  Honesty here does not bode well it seems.

As well many (of those not ACTUALLY in the biz) seem to give off the impression that those that make it are "professional" "moral" and "nice"..... that is most certainly not that case, (I know so many first hand!).  More often than not those that are the creatively best are arrogant assholes that are either well conected or have great agents that do all the 'go between' work.

Artists are more often than not... artists!  ie rule breakers from outside the box.  Yes there are a few that came from banking and conveyed that into a strong business dicipline... as are many people HERE... but in the real world (of working editorial fashion photographers) -that is NOT the case.

I am done with this rant... so save the attacks on my behalf... as I know this will only down spiral downhill debating the merits of what I said.  (ignore typos... I can't be bothered to edit.)

LOL  what a great laugh I had reading this thread!! Just so you'll know what SB say it's not true....but I love reading his post because they are so funny to laugh at !

In his own words "I have been banned... what 4 or 5 times?!!! "

Solomage wrote:

Many people on the www complain that the incognito aspect of posting in forums makes for a mob rules environment where anyone can get away with saying anything...I like it...I'm a firm believer in "What goes around comes around"...I find these conversations extremely revealing...

I thought it was pretty even handed tonight.

Steven Bigler wrote:
DBN my big bad chest hurts from all the thumping... what do you suggest?

By the way Steven, you may not read this tonight or any night for that matter, but I wonder if you were to go back and reread your responses would you want to learn from the person who gave those answers?

markcomp wrote:

I thought it was pretty even handed tonight.

The issue you have brought to light in this post is an important one markcomp...it all has to do with the way people treat each other...love needs to be brought back in style....

Solomage wrote:

The issue you have brought to light in this post is an important one markcomp...it all has to do with the way people treat each other...love needs to be brought back in style....

If not love at least respect.

Dave Krueger wrote:

Guess that explains the current shortage of mentors...

yeah, and why Helmut Newton's autopsy ended up a total mess / feeding frenzy.

markcomp wrote:

I thought it was pretty even handed tonight.

yes,  looked bad at the beginning but actually not bad so far.

Dan Howell wrote:
[Michael McGowan]Sometimes a good spanking is the right thing to do

Gawd, you're such a fetish photographer!

I hope he REALLY doesn't do that with the noob writing staff....

Ken Mierzwa wrote:

CPAs usually get respect in the real world.  Many photographers don't.  Thus, they take it out on the next guy down the food chain.

I guess I should become more of a carnivor.

markcomp wrote:
Why do so called professional photographers seem to have the need to make sport of anyone without such a designation?

Insecurity?

The Art of CIP wrote:
Beer break.... But I gotta tell you MarkComp - this is one of the more interesting threads I've seen posted in awhile...  There's a good spread of responses.  I'll offer this word of encouragement though - keep making images.  You'll fuck up - you'll learn from the fuck ups...  I've been shooting for like one year now (although I only shoot maybe once every 2 - 3 months).  In a nutshell don't make images for anyone that doesn't encourage you or suport your vision - share your work with the people that enjoy what you do and want to see you get better.  In time you'll find that more people will appreciate what you have to share because over time you will have more to share and you'll be better at it...  MM has a wealth of skilled photographers - talk to them, buy them lunch, if they offer it - rent studio time from them and you'll learn alot...  I've had the luxury of renting studio time from some good photographers and learning alot of stuff...So have fun and most importantly KEEP IT UP!  I don't care if every professional photographer tells you to burn your camera - if you really love doing this - don't ever stop...
peace
CIP

Thank you.  Your words mean a lot to me.

model7299 wrote:
okay, I can't take it any longer...

what does GWC stand for?

The GWC acronym describes a person that owns a camera, but the main objective is not to create photos, which would warrant the term "photographer".

The Guy With Camera's objective is to get laid, or at least dates, by using his camera.

Please make a note of that difference!

The distinction between most professional photographers and many amateur photographers is not the quality of their work, but the source of income... both should be expected to conduct their photoshoots in a "professional" manner.

UdoR
Moderator

UdoR wrote:

Insecurity?

If I could sum it up to one word, well...I guess that would be it.

The Art of CIP wrote:
The pros that hassle the startups are jaded that's all...  They don't make the money nor get the creative fullfillment they  seek...  Just look at their work - not just one shot - like 5 years worth of stuff...  Is it the same thing? Just shot in different places? Complacency is something that affects alot of established artists unfortunately - at some point they just become automatic...  Good at what they do so they don't seek any creative risks...  So when they see someone that reminds them of what they once were - they lash out - not out of arrogance or disdain for the newbie - but out of disgust at themselves for becoming what they feared most - a creatively bankrupt, technically skilled gun for hire....

This is one of the best reponses I've read on this site.  Very often the contempt
and disgust over someones work is a reflection of how they feel about themselves.
Really secure people don't need to put anyone down.  While none of us have
to be nice being an ass isn't needed and just because your'e talented not something people expect or desire.

BCADULTART wrote:
You just do not get it, Do You.  If I wanted to be an accountant
I would have been one, but then again how many accountants do you
know that work wearing 70lbs of body armor?  I am a pro and I work
like a pro and God help the amatures that get in my way.....

P.S. The stuff I have posted on MM is just sport not what I would
call work.

I understand exactly where you're coming from.

Kevin Bargeron wrote:

They are GWCs with a bigger paycheck.  They don't like unpaid GWC's taking their work. 

PS this is a joke but I'm sure I'll get flamed anyway...

Actually I agree with this.... LOL

DeBoer Photography wrote:

I am a "gun" for hire, when people hire me as a photographer...and an "artist" when I am shooting the babes or shooting because I enjoy something and have a "vision" to fulfill.

Is a professional house painter an artist?  He certain is good with his tool and his craft...and certainly knows how to make a house look good...

Do some view my "work" as art?  Yeah.  Do I?  Sometimes.  Othertimes, I am just shooting to spec.

Do I market myself as an artist?  Hell yes.

- Denoy

In my younger years when I painted for a living, I knew men that were amazing with a house brush.  Artists?  Hell yea.