Posted by Sophia Innsbruck: 
Unfortunately a lot of men do think if a woman takes her clothes off to do pictures she is "easy". The real point is that a photographer should never touch a model on her breasts, bottom or other personal areas, as thats exactly what they are...personal and there is no excuse.

A woman being naked / topless in front of a photographer does not give licence for him to touch.... "look but dont touch" as the saying goes.

Of course most photographers are professional and behave in such a manner, but even some professional ones cross the line.

A model is just that.... a "model" and is there to take pictures only. Of course if things are mutual then so be it, but I know of many models who have had bad experiences and just froze and not known how to handle unwanted advances and have been deeply upset by it. Respect needs to go both ways and no one should take advantage of a situation.

I have worked with professional photographers who I know I can totally trust and I work with them time and time again, but the one professional photographer who crossed the line with me and grabbed my breasts, I will never work with again.

Like in any relationship, working or otherwise, trust is what it they are built on. 

"look but don't touch"....heck, when I"m doing a nude shoot, I'm so busy I don't have time to even look!!!

Posted by Michael Barian: 
A photograher and model relationship is no different than doctor/patient.
I've always conducted myself with that in mind.
Now after the shoot..........well um----

Will you continue to have a professional relationship with the model after the shoot?

You bring up a good point on the doctor/patient relationship.  I'm not sure if it's in Canada, or the USA, or both, but it is against the code of ethics of the doctor or the lawyer to have a relationship with his patient or client, even to the point where they ban a doctor having a relationship with a former patient if they were a patient less than 2 years ago.  They can lose their license to practise.

Posted by Sophia Innsbruck: 
Thats true, a chaperone is good for both parties and a protection for both model and photographer.

And yes, a real professional would not object to a chaperone being present and if they do, it is probably a sign they have other motives.

Just make sure your chaperone does not interfere with the photoshoot in anyway.

The term comes up again. And like a pedantic geek superhero, I must swoop-down as a caped crusader and preach like James Brown in The Blues Brothers.

I am completely supportive and encouraging of the idea of a model being accompanied to a photoshoot. However, I insist that their company be a "personal assistant" and not an "escort" or a "chaperone" - because I think the terminology is an important distinction to help models feel more secure, strong and empowered. I will NEVER allow an escort. Because I don't want to shoot with a little girl who feels like a "potential victim" going to a "potentially dangerous" situation being "escorted" by her boyfriend or mommy. And "chaperones" are for children on gradeschool fieldtrips. My photoshoots are not fieldtrips. I encourage "personal assistants" because I want my models to be people who are liberated, confident and strong and have "assistance" because they are so awesome and glorious.

Posted by Aperture Photographics: 

Posted by Michael Barian: 
A photograher and model relationship is no different than doctor/patient.
I've always conducted myself with that in mind.
Now after the shoot..........well um----

Will you continue to have a professional relationship with the model after the shoot?

You bring up a good point on the doctor/patient relationship.  I'm not sure if it's in Canada, or the USA, or both, but it is against the code of ethics of the doctor or the lawyer to have a relationship with his patient or client, even to the point where they ban a doctor having a relationship with a former patient if they were a patient less than 2 years ago.  They can lose their license to practise.

Posted by Sophia Innsbruck: 
Thats true, a chaperone is good for both parties and a protection for both model and photographer.

And yes, a real professional would not object to a chaperone being present and if they do, it is probably a sign they have other motives.

 

ARRRRGGHHHHHHH!  (banging head on keyboard)
All of this presupposes that the model is always a woman (in need of protection) from the photographer a male (always needing to be protected from).

I don't have other motives in not being thrilled if a model says to me I need someone to watch over me whilst I work with you.  For starters, I'm a female photographer who is like twice the age and sometimes it feels like half the height of some of the models I work with.  And they need protection from what?  And why is her chaperone good for me?

Posted by Eric Muss-Barnes: 

Posted by Sophia Innsbruck: 
Thats true, a chaperone is good for both parties and a protection for both model and photographer.

And yes, a real professional would not object to a chaperone being present and if they do, it is probably a sign they have other motives.

Just make sure your chaperone does not interfere with the photoshoot in anyway.

The term comes up again. And like a pedantic geek superhero, I must swoop-down as a caped crusader and preach like James Brown in The Blues Brothers.

I am completely supportive and encouraging of the idea of a model being accompanied to a photoshoot. However, I insist that their company be a "personal assistant" and not an "escort" or a "chaperone" - because I think the terminology is an important distinction to help models feel more secure, strong and empowered. I will NEVER allow an escort. Because I don't want to shoot with a little girl who feels like a "potential victim" going to a "potentially dangerous" situation being "escorted" by her boyfriend or mommy. And "chaperones" are for children on gradeschool fieldtrips. My photoshoots are not fieldtrips. I encourage "personal assistants" because I want my models to be people who are liberated, confident and strong and have "assistance" because they are so awesome and glorious.

Chaperone / Assistant / Boyfriend, terminology is irrelavent.... What is meant is that a model is better off taking someone with her to a shoot and it is done so as a protection.

 

Posted by Sirena Scott: 
I have had a few run-ins with photographers who were handsy or who wanted to jerk off during the shoot or who wanted to have sex when the shoot was over. I never worked with any of them again and I warned other models about them. A couple of them were really good photographers but I did not want to put myself in that situation again.

Why on earth do you hang around for more than 1 millionth of a second if a photographer proposes a five finger shuffle while working???
You never worked with them again...i'm pleased to hear it....but goddamnit woman why did you even work five seconds with them in the first place??? ..and don't give me "they were good photographers" rubbish...

Posted by KM von Seidl: 

Posted by Sophia Innsbruck: 
Thats true, a chaperone is good for both parties and a protection for both model and photographer.

And yes, a real professional would not object to a chaperone being present and if they do, it is probably a sign they have other motives.

 

ARRRRGGHHHHHHH!  (banging head on keyboard)
All of this presupposes that the model is always a woman (in need of protection) from the photographer a male (always needing to be protected from).

I don't have other motives in not being thrilled if a model says to me I need someone to watch over me whilst I work with you.  For starters, I'm a female photographer who is like twice the age and sometimes it feels like half the height of some of the models I work with.  And they need protection from what?  And why is her chaperone good for me?

Being a female photographer doesnt' mean that a female model (or male model) can't be groped or accosted, it's just less common...or that you can't be accused to doing it even if you have been totally professional during the shoot.  I've had female clients who didn't like my female assistant adjusting their wardrobe, etc.

It's NEVER a good idea to work alone with a client, regardless of whether the photographer is female or not.

Posted by Michael Barian: 
When I think of all the shoots I've done.........and all the nudity/semi etc. in front of me that I've seen,
the restraint I've shown has been "Monklike",
but the thing is---it's not difficult because I'm OBSESSED with getting the shot, at all times.
Period.

I agree with you on that point.  I'm so obsessed with getting the shot myself that I don't even realize they're naked!!! 

Posted by Sirena Scott: 


I don't think it's appropriate for a photographer OR a model to make passes during or even after a shoot. This is supposed to be a job, not an adventure. There are too many problems that arise when sex enters the picture. Everything from talking bad about the other person when no relationship evolves or one person decides they don't want to see the other person again to stalking or worse.

I have had a few run-ins with photographers who were handsy or who wanted to jerk off during the shoot or who wanted to have sex when the shoot was over. I never worked with any of them again and I warned other models about them. A couple of them were really good photographers but I did not want to put myself in that situation again.

I totally agree with you on the first point.  If we, as photogarphers, want to be treated like professionals, we need to adhere to a code of ethics similar to what Dr's or Lawyer's have, and stay away from relationships with our clients.  Unfortunately, that's not a popular opinion among many on MM. 

As for these other jerks you've worked with, slow castration with a rusty knife would be going easy on them!!! 

Posted by Sirena Scott: 
I have been reading all of this with interest and I thought I would throw in my two cents.

I don't think it's appropriate for a photographer OR a model to make passes during or even after a shoot. This is supposed to be a job, not an adventure. There are too many problems that arise when sex enters the picture. Everything from talking bad about the other person when no relationship evolves or one person decides they don't want to see the other person again to stalking or worse.

I have had a few run-ins with photographers who were handsy or who wanted to jerk off during the shoot or who wanted to have sex when the shoot was over. I never worked with any of them again and I warned other models about them. A couple of them were really good photographers but I did not want to put myself in that situation again.

As for models not saying anything I agree that they are afraid they will not get more work in the industry they are in or they will get bad-mouthed or have their personal info posted on the internet like that one model had. I am a fetish model and many of the bondage people are less then professional on shoots. But no one says anything because many of these people are highly regarded in the industry and alot of girls want to work with these jerks. I have made a few comments and as a result it is hard for me to get much fetish work in LA.

It's a two-edged sword but there needs to be a good way to handle it.

you guys have got to be kidding me!  are we talking about prostitution or modeling?  I am starting to think I landed on the wrong mesaage board.

Posted by Venus: 
Communication is the key.  Besides, if anybody messed with me, they'd be sorry.  I might look little and weak but when I'm mad, you don't want to mess with me.

I'd never cross the line with Venus under any conditions.

... Unless she asked very nicely. With sugar on top.

(Besides, like our lovely moderator Reese, all those gooks know karate. They'll Mr. Miyagi your sorry ass with some wax-on, wax-off in no time flat. So you best watch your pasty caucasian rump unless you want a chopstick up the cornhole.)

Posted by Aperture Photographics: 

Posted by KM von Seidl: 

Posted by Sophia Innsbruck: 
Thats true, a chaperone is good for both parties and a protection for both model and photographer.

And yes, a real professional would not object to a chaperone being present and if they do, it is probably a sign they have other motives.

 

ARRRRGGHHHHHHH!  (banging head on keyboard)
All of this presupposes that the model is always a woman (in need of protection) from the photographer a male (always needing to be protected from).

I don't have other motives in not being thrilled if a model says to me I need someone to watch over me whilst I work with you.  For starters, I'm a female photographer who is like twice the age and sometimes it feels like half the height of some of the models I work with.  And they need protection from what?  And why is her chaperone good for me?

Being a female photographer doesnt' mean that a female model (or male model) can't be groped or accosted, it's just less common...or that you can't be accused to doing it even if you have been totally professional during the shoot.  I've had female clients who didn't like my female assistant adjusting their wardrobe, etc.

It's NEVER a good idea to work alone with a client, regardless of whether the photographer is female or not.

You know, I really chose not to live in a world of paranoia. After 9-11 it's become open season so that fear rules the day for too many people.

I tend to work with friends and repeat models (that is the ones I haven't molested on a shoot).  New models I screen and I encourage them to screen me.  If some one is so vibed out or worried about working with me that they need to bring someone to watch over me, i.e. they want to bring a chaperone, bodyguard, armed guard with stungun, I pass.   I agree with the terminology that Eric has laid out, I use different words, but it's about what's in the head.  I don't want to work in an artistic setting whose foundation is fear.

Posted by KM von Seidl: 

Posted by Aperture Photographics: 

Posted by KM von Seidl: 

Posted by Sophia Innsbruck: 
Thats true, a chaperone is good for both parties and a protection for both model and photographer.

And yes, a real professional would not object to a chaperone being present and if they do, it is probably a sign they have other motives.

 

ARRRRGGHHHHHHH!  (banging head on keyboard)
All of this presupposes that the model is always a woman (in need of protection) from the photographer a male (always needing to be protected from).

I don't have other motives in not being thrilled if a model says to me I need someone to watch over me whilst I work with you.  For starters, I'm a female photographer who is like twice the age and sometimes it feels like half the height of some of the models I work with.  And they need protection from what?  And why is her chaperone good for me?

Being a female photographer doesnt' mean that a female model (or male model) can't be groped or accosted, it's just less common...or that you can't be accused to doing it even if you have been totally professional during the shoot.  I've had female clients who didn't like my female assistant adjusting their wardrobe, etc.

It's NEVER a good idea to work alone with a client, regardless of whether the photographer is female or not.

You know, I really chose not to live in a world of paranoia. After 9-11 it's become open season so that fear rules the day for too many people.

I tend to work with friends and repeat models (that is the ones I haven't molested on a shoot).  New models I screen and I encourage them to screen me.  If some one is so vibed out or worried about working with me that they need to bring someone to watch over me, i.e. they want to bring a chaperone, bodyguard, armed guard with stungun, I pass.   I agree with the terminology that Eric has laid out, I use different words, but it's about what's in the head.  I don't want to work in an artistic setting whose foundation is fear.

Well, of course that's your choice.  With all the creeps around (and that's not limited to male members of society....up here in Canada, we're following a female protagonist who is about to get out after serving her full sentence for helping her husband rape and kill and dismember 2 school girls, and rape and kill her own sister....by all accounts, she's VERY good at seducing women as well as men...Karla Homolka), I can't blame any female model for bringing a friend.  I always suggest that she does.  I don't take it personally....it's NOT about ME, it's NOT about her not wanting to trust me, it's just about being SMART and SAFE. 

The creep who can't keep his hands off a female model could just as easily be a female photographer, or a girl posing as a female photographer with a creepy boyfriend waiting at the studio. 

It's your choice not to work with a model who wants to be safe.  But I would NEVER tell a model that she should leave her friend at home otherwise I won't work with her.

Posted by Aperture Photographics: 

Posted by Michael Barian: 
When I think of all the shoots I've done.........and all the nudity/semi etc. in front of me that I've seen,
the restraint I've shown has been "Monklike",
but the thing is---it's not difficult because I'm OBSESSED with getting the shot, at all times.
Period.

I agree with you on that point.  I'm so obsessed with getting the shot myself that I don't even realize they're naked!!!   

Sorry, but while I agree with the monklike statement, I don't buy the line that you don't realize someone is naked.   You might be too obsessed with getting the shot that you don't get aroused, but if looking through the viewfinder, you can't tell the difference between a clothed person and an unclothed one, you aren't THAT obsessed about the shot.

Posted by Aperture Photographics: 

Well, of course that's your choice.  With all the creeps around

they're everywhere, right?

Posted by Aperture Photographics:
(and that's not limited to male members of society....up here in Canada, we're following a female protagonist who is about to get out after serving her full sentence for helping her husband rape and kill and dismember 2 school girls, and rape and kill her own sister....by all accounts, she's VERY good at seducing women as well as men...Karla Homolka),

are you watching too much court TV?

Posted by Aperture Photographics:

The creep who can't keep his hands off a female model could just as easily be a female photographer, or a girl posing as a female photographer with a creepy boyfriend waiting at the studio.

You really are focused on creeps aren't you?  That was 3 creeps in just over one paragraph.  And I thought it was just US citizens who were afraid of everything.

Posted by Aperture Photographics:
It's your choice not to work with a model who wants to be safe.  But I would NEVER tell a model that she should leave her friend at home otherwise I won't work with her.

I think, if you scroll back, what I had a major problem with was somone's assertion that one is not a "professional" photographer if they object to having a chaperone present, AND that if one does have qualms that they therefore must have "ulterior" (as in wanting to molest the model?) motives.

Posted by Aperture Photographics: 

Posted by KM von Seidl: 

Posted by Aperture Photographics: 

Posted by KM von Seidl: 

Posted by Sophia Innsbruck: 
Thats true, a chaperone is good for both parties and a protection for both model and photographer.

And yes, a real professional would not object to a chaperone being present and if they do, it is probably a sign they have other motives.

 

ARRRRGGHHHHHHH!  (banging head on keyboard)
All of this presupposes that the model is always a woman (in need of protection) from the photographer a male (always needing to be protected from).

I don't have other motives in not being thrilled if a model says to me I need someone to watch over me whilst I work with you.  For starters, I'm a female photographer who is like twice the age and sometimes it feels like half the height of some of the models I work with.  And they need protection from what?  And why is her chaperone good for me?

Being a female photographer doesnt' mean that a female model (or male model) can't be groped or accosted, it's just less common...or that you can't be accused to doing it even if you have been totally professional during the shoot.  I've had female clients who didn't like my female assistant adjusting their wardrobe, etc.

It's NEVER a good idea to work alone with a client, regardless of whether the photographer is female or not.

You know, I really chose not to live in a world of paranoia. After 9-11 it's become open season so that fear rules the day for too many people.

I tend to work with friends and repeat models (that is the ones I haven't molested on a shoot).  New models I screen and I encourage them to screen me.  If some one is so vibed out or worried about working with me that they need to bring someone to watch over me, i.e. they want to bring a chaperone, bodyguard, armed guard with stungun, I pass.   I agree with the terminology that Eric has laid out, I use different words, but it's about what's in the head.  I don't want to work in an artistic setting whose foundation is fear.

Well, of course that's your choice.  With all the creeps around (and that's not limited to male members of society....up here in Canada, we're following a female protagonist who is about to get out after serving her full sentence for helping her husband rape and kill and dismember 2 school girls, and rape and kill her own sister....by all accounts, she's VERY good at seducing women as well as men...Karla Homolka), I can't blame any female model for bringing a friend.  I always suggest that she does.  I don't take it personally....it's NOT about ME, it's NOT about her not wanting to trust me, it's just about being SMART and SAFE. 

The creep who can't keep his hands off a female model could just as easily be a female photographer, or a girl posing as a female photographer with a creepy boyfriend waiting at the studio. 

It's your choice not to work with a model who wants to be safe.  But I would NEVER tell a model that she should leave her friend at home otherwise I won't work with her.

You are so correct, bringing a person to a shoot isnt saying to a photographer that he isnt trusted, its a bout being sensible....if a photographer feels that he isnt trusted because a model brings a friend along, then that is due to his own insecurities.

If a photographer said to me he didnt want to shoot because I had a friend with me, I would gladly leave and not do the shoot.

Im sure if a photographer had an assistant present and the model told him to leave, that would be a different story.

Posted by Aperture Photographics: 

Posted by Michael Barian: 
A photograher and model relationship is no different than doctor/patient.
I've always conducted myself with that in mind.
Now after the shoot..........well um----

Will you continue to have a professional relationship with the model after the shoot?

You bring up a good point on the doctor/patient relationship.  I'm not sure if it's in Canada, or the USA, or both, but it is against the code of ethics of the doctor or the lawyer to have a relationship with his patient or client, even to the point where they ban a doctor having a relationship with a former patient if they were a patient less than 2 years ago.  They can lose their license to practise.

The client is a client, the model is more like a hot nurse...

But seriously, more often than not my models are not single, so it seldome comes up and I'm usually more worried about lighting and how a fabric is hanging.

Posted by Michael Grimes: 
Why don't you girls ask for references before working with an unknown photog?

That doesn't always work. No one with much of a clue is going to give contact info for models they've had bad expereinces with.  You can check the names they don't give you, but you can't get everyone to respond or to give a truthful answer if they do respond. References help, but there are no certainties.

Posted by Sophia Innsbruck: 
You are so correct, bringing a person to a shoot isnt saying to a photographer that he isnt trusted, its a bout being sensible....if a photographer feels that he isnt trusted because a model brings a friend along, then that is due to his own insecurities.

If a photographer said to me he didnt want to shoot because I had a friend with me, I would gladly leave and not do the shoot.

YAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
Is it just me or does every model who insists on bringing Billy Bob with them every time they go for a paid "professional" job get a bunch of photos that look like every other one in her portfolio??

Strangely enough those "insecure" pro photographers are generally the most dynamic, creative and stylish out there.
Those who are happy to welcome Billy Bob, Uncle Frank and the kitchen sink into the studio along with the photographers own staff are just a bunch of prissy wallflowers with about as much creative spunk as a glass of tepid water.
They probably take the models advice on the lighting set up and probably let her do her own make up as well.
sigh

ok back to sleep...........zzzzzzzzzz

Posted by photofashion: 

Posted by Sophia Innsbruck: 
You are so correct, bringing a person to a shoot isnt saying to a photographer that he isnt trusted, its a bout being sensible....if a photographer feels that he isnt trusted because a model brings a friend along, then that is due to his own insecurities.

If a photographer said to me he didnt want to shoot because I had a friend with me, I would gladly leave and not do the shoot.

YAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
Is it just me or does every model who insists on bringing Billy Bob with them every time they go for a paid "professional" job get a bunch of photos that look like every other one in her portfolio??

Strangely enough those "insecure" pro photographers are generally the most dynamic, creative and stylish out there.
Those who are happy to welcome Billy Bob, Uncle Frank and the kitchen sink into the studio along with the photographers own staff are just a bunch of prissy wallflowers with about as much creative spunk as a glass of tepid water.
They probably take the models advice on the lighting set up and probably let her do her own make up as well.
sigh

ok back to sleep...........zzzzzzzzzz

It's just you.

Ken Mierzwa wrote:

The Blackbook Project isn't a gossip site.  They provide educational information for models; they screen photographers in advance, to become a member I had to provide background information and references; and they provide contact info for member models to find other local members if there is a problem and they need help.

I strongly urge especially newer and less experienced models to read through the site, there is some good info there.

Unfortunately it appears the BlackBook Project site is no more

Adonis G wrote:
Why aren't more girls coming out and either calling the Police or doing something about it. I have heard a few stories about some guys down here in Florida, and I CAN NOT understand why the girls stay quiet??

It's not a one way street, as a photographer I have had several models (both male and female) try to cross the line and have been put in the same situation that you're describing.

Photography by its nature is a very intimate experience between a photographer and a model, there is a very sexual aspect of it and frankly most photo good photo sessions have a chemistry similar to a date ... I'm not defending people who take advantage of that situation but frankly, it's not always the photographer who takes advantage.

Dax wrote:
I agree, girls... come out and talk!

You know, everytime I am at the BakeHouse I try to find your studio.  Where in the maze are you?

Aperture Photographics wrote:
I totally agree with you on the first point.  If we, as photogarphers, want to be treated like professionals, we need to adhere to a code of ethics similar to what Dr's or Lawyer's have, and stay away from relationships with our clients.  Unfortunately, that's not a popular opinion among many on MM.

lol, forget that. we're all adults here and I think we're capable of making good choices. If a model wants to get a good rogering, there's nothing wrong with being an adult and playing a few rounds of twister.

Photographers are not lawyers, we're not doctors ... we're people who take pictures and models are not timid little flowers that need protecting ... they're people who want to have pictures taken.

E|||B wrote:
I'd never cross the line with Venus under any conditions.

... Unless she asked very nicely. With sugar on top.

(Besides, like our lovely moderator Reese, all those gooks know karate. They'll Mr. Miyagi your sorry ass with some wax-on, wax-off in no time flat. So you best watch your pasty caucasian rump unless you want a chopstick up the cornhole.)

So many of the posts in this thread are latently offensive, the subtext and excuses being made by some here is patently wrong. Innappropriate or lude behavior by ANYONE in a professional setting should never be tolerated or defended. In my career, there isn't a single model I've worked with that didn't have a horror story of some jerkass 'photographer' that pulled some shit on her.

You neanderthals are ruining it for those of us doing real work. You need to be shot. With a 12 guage.

Chris
::rev