Monsante Bey wrote:

Iona, it's all about the individual photographer.
I know guys that shoot just for the joy of shooting.
I know guys that do it for a living.
I know guys that do it at cost (like i'm doing until I move this summer).

Just personal perspectives.

I agree with you the same is for models too!!

Monsante Bey wrote:

Iona, it's all about the individual photographer.
I know guys that shoot just for the joy of shooting.
I know guys that do it for a living.
I know guys that do it at cost (like i'm doing until I move this summer).

Just personal perspectives.

I agree with you, The same goes for models too 

Michael Strider wrote:
There is absolutely no reason that a photographer would shoot the same person more than TEN TIMES FOR FREE!

One of the best models I have ever worked with is the black model in the white bikini on the truck in my portfolio.She made that outfit right before my eyes with 2 old t shirts. She was one of my first models and I shot with her, TFP/TFCD 6 times, for free. That girl helped me a LOT with my skills, especially with shooting digital. She I think was the first model I shot when I first got my Olympus E-10. She was also a new model. We both had a lot of ideas for shoots for eachothers portfolio so we shot for free with eachother. Due to her helping me so much with my skills and the fact that she is just one of the most awesome models I could ever ask for,she is one of two models who I have told I would never charge. I have done TFP/TFCD with many others but it is usually only once or twice, unless the model and I have so many ideas that I see it as worthy to shoot with them on a TFP/TFCD basis a few times.

I swore off TFP/TFCD as a resolution on new years day but I broke that resolution a couple of weeks ago and I do not regret it one bit. And we will probably do more in the future.

Iona Lynn wrote:
That is if they are willing to shoot me again.

Oh, PUH-LEEZE. How could a photographer NOT want to work with you again?

Amanda Schlicher wrote:
And some of us are. But that doesn't make us evil or wrong, Melvin.  My take is, I have to do something to pay the bills, and if I can do that behind a camera, that's great.  I don't want to and don't have to work at Pick N Save (or even have a high paying job in another field) in order to do photography. 
People who give away services reduce the value of the service and make it harder for those trying to make a living to do so.  It's supply and demand.  Who wants to pay for ice cream when there is someone giving away ice cream on the corner? (regardless of the quality of the ice cream of either circumstance.)

Nobody said it made you "evil" to do photography for money...I certainly didn't.  I was merely responding to the question of why I do TFP/CD [for the millionth time].  It's great that you pay your bills with your camera, but some of us opt to only shoot what we want, when we want, because we want.  I've done the commercial thing and frankly would rather work a day job than deal with cheap, dumb clients and chase after money all day...I know lots of photographers who spend so much time "doing business" that they don't have any time [or desire] to do photography anymore.  I choose not to do that, and as a result, when I pick up my camera, it's all about me [and the model]...and there's nothing wrong with that.

As for this whole "TFP is hurting my business" train of thought -- b*llsh*t.  The simple fact is, if one is talented enough, in a big enough market and enough of a hustler/operator, the money is there.  Besides which, so much of what happens in TFP has nothing to do with the commercial world...just nothing.  I find it impossible to believe that my doing bondage/fetish/porn TFP/CD affects your wedding or fashion business...If it does, I'd love to see the business diagram for it.  What it seems to come down to is a lot of people in "the business" aren't making as much money as they'd like, and it has to be somebody's fault...right?  I don't mean to sound snarky, but I think the fact that you're in Wisconsin has more effect on your business than the guy down the road shooting the girl across the way for fun on the weekend.  Take it from a guy living in Pittsburgh.

CrazyIsabelAurora wrote:
**********************************************
**********************************************
**********************************************Ok Ok I think people are missing a big point here, Michael said that one of the models, in front of him - the photographer - none the less, said to the other models that they should never pay a photographer.

I think this model was out of line and that was rude.  Whether a model choses to pay a photographer, or whether a photographer choses to do TFP is their perrogative, but to state something like that in front of the photographer (who is doing the model a favor) is selfish and ignorant....

I agree,

I thought this is what prompted the posting..
To state..A MODEL Should never pay a photographer is a pretty "FINAL"statement.
I posted in another thread about the "Attitude"many models have about TFP..

TFP in and of itself is a practice that is being abused by many, may models. NOT all Models.. I said MANY..

Somebody here said it best..it depends on what you focus is as a photgrapher..are you Purley an artist..Or are you also a business person.

I myself am in it for the art as well as the income.

I think there is only one thing to do in that case.
FOR ME

I must set myself apart..(and my company)

I must provide a great service and final product as well as some connections.

I must make my service worth paying for.

As well as my images..

Thats what a business does..
An artist, can shoot TFP all day and not worry about such things.

BUT TRUTH be told, this does create a "drain" on the photgrapher who runs a business. It is a sort of competiton...And it does affect business....

But hey, nobody told me to become a shooter...

Vance

Melvin Moten Jr wrote:

Nobody said it made you "evil" to do photography for money...I certainly didn't.  I was merely responding to the question of why I do TFP/CD [for the millionth time].  It's great that you pay your bills with your camera, but some of us opt to only shoot what we want, when we want, because we want.  I've done the commercial thing and frankly would rather work a day job than deal with cheap, dumb clients and chase after money all day...I know lots of photographers who spend so much time "doing business" that they don't have any time [or desire] to do photography anymore.  I choose not to do that, and as a result, when I pick up my camera, it's all about me [and the model]...and there's nothing wrong with that.

As for this whole "TFP is hurting my business" train of thought -- b*llsh*t.  The simple fact is, if one is talented enough, in a big enough market and enough of a hustler/operator, the money is there.  Besides which, so much of what happens in TFP has nothing to do with the commercial world...just nothing.  I find it impossible to believe that my doing bondage/fetish/porn TFP/CD affects your wedding or fashion business...If it does, I'd love to see the business diagram for it.  What it seems to come down to is a lot of people in "the business" aren't making as much money as they'd like, and it has to be somebody's fault...right?  I don't mean to sound snarky, but I think the fact that you're in Wisconsin has more effect on your business than the guy down the road shooting the girl across the way for fun on the weekend.  Take it from a guy living in Pittsburgh.

You know,

I am really not about telling people their ideas and thoughts are bullshit..and I certainly think we are all professional enough to be able to communicate with each other with out being overly harsh..

Of course your bondage work does not affect my photography, but truth be told..EVERY TFP in my area isnt bondage.IF it were, I nor the person you are responding to would ever make the statement.

Truth be told, TFP is a direct competition to paid photography. However you are right in stating that we as business people must rise to the ocassiion to overcome ANY diversity we see on the road to continued success.

You also spoke of being able to pick up your camera and shoot whatever you want wenever you want. I applaud you and wish you the best in all of your creative ventures.

But please do not be little us business people.

1. Business is an art in and of itself. And any business person thrives on the chaleenges a business afford. Otherwise we too would have day jobs. I love business. I love being self employed. I love the freedom as well as the head aches that go along with it.

2. When a client call up, my heart begins to beat really fast. That call is a challenge. My creative juices start to flow. All of my being goes on red alert. I get paid to be creative, I LOVE THAT!

Plus, much of my work is garuntedd to be seen by many. I thrive on that.

The business side is a plus, for me. Yes I see the ups and downs of al of it. We are no "bitching" we are stating facts, and any business person, artist or not would be a fool not to be aware of the practices and social norms that affect their business.

Vance


Much Love

Happy Shooting

Vance wrote:

You know,

I am really not about telling people their ideas and thoughts are bullshit..and I certainly think we are all professional enough to be able to communicate with each other with out being overly harsh..

Of course your bondage work does not affect my photography, but truth be told..EVERY TFP in my area isnt bondage.IF it were, I nor the person you are responding to would ever make the statement.

Truth be told, TFP is a direct competition to paid photography. However you are right in stating that we as business people must rise to the ocassiion to overcome ANY diversity we see on the road to continued success.

You also spoke of being able to pick up your camera and shoot whatever you want wenever you want. I applaud you and wish you the best in all of your creative ventures.

But please do not be little us business people.

1. Business is an art in and of itself. And any business person thrives on the chaleenges a business afford. Otherwise we too would have day jobs. I love business. I love being self employed. I love the freedom as well as the head aches that go along with it.

2. When a client call up, my heart begins to beat really fast. That call is a challenge. My creative juices start to flow. All of my being goes on red alert. I get paid to be creative, I LOVE THAT!

Plus, much of my work is garuntedd to be seen by many. I thrive on that.

The business side is a plus, for me. Yes I see the ups and downs of al of it. We are no "bitching" we are stating facts, and any business person, artist or not would be a fool not to be aware of the practices and social norms that affect their business.

Vance


Much Love

Happy Shooting

If you guys in "the industry" can't beat out a bunch of weekend shooters with their first D50s, you don't deserve to make money.  Really, this is like Tiger Woods complaining about the weekend duffers around the country for not being able to hit the fairway last Thursday.  The sad part is that the GWCs and TFP guys you "pros" go on and on about don't even know you exist...you're the farthest thing from their minds.  They just do what they do, get their kicks and [apparently] make the models they work with happy.  Maybe pros are suffering because they're not as much fun to be with as we are.

Melvin Moten Jr wrote:
If you guys in "the industry" can't beat out a bunch of weekend shooters with their first D50s, you don't deserve to make money.

It has nothing to do with us beating anyone out.
When it comes to those models who are the types who only look for freebies, you could be the best photographer in the world. But, if there is someone who will shoot her for free, she will often pick the freebie even if his work is not up to par.
I wish I had a buck for every time I saw an aspiring or even experienced model say" yea, the pics aren`t so good but they were free".Your Tiger Woods analogy is completely different. As for the GWC not knowing we exist, they do, they are allover this site and the others and they talk to these girls a lot" hey, he might be good and all, but *Ill* shoot you for free". Guess where they go to get their pics?

DeBoer Photography wrote:
Does anyone else find this whole thread funny?

lol

"Models" who think/feel/whatever that they don't ever have to pay a photographer shouldn't have to do so.  As a result, they will only end up working with photographers who are willing to work with them for free (for whatever reason).

Photographers work with models (and make-up artists and others) for different reasons.  Some of it is simply to shoot for FUN!

Photographers who complain about other photographers (whether professional, gwc, good, bad, whatever) need to concentrate on their own photography and/or business.

If you find that "models" are no longer willing to pay to work with you, then perhaps it means that either:

1. The "models" feel your work is not worth paying for
2. That particular market sector of the industry is no longer viable in your area

To the OP...were you offering to shoot the models who said the words that started this whole thread...were YOU in process of shooting them for FREE?  lol

- Denoy

P.S.

BTW, did you know that there are "photographers" on here who feel they should never have to (gasp) PAY a model to work with them???  lol

Didnt I just say that?

CrazyIsabelAurora wrote:
One more time...since no one listens to me much lol

I agree with you. But some people will argue no matter what.
tom

visionmedia wrote:
Practice makes perfect.

My music teachers used to say "Perfect practice makes perfect" -- mostly cause I had bad posture and bad finger position.

Michael Strider wrote:
As hard as it may be for you, try to maintain a hint of professionalism even though you admit to not being a professional photographer. You're taking this too seriously. It's just everyone's opinion. Thankfully we don’t have to agree about everything. Maybe someday you'll be a pro with your own studio. If that day comes you'll think more on the side of the "Tiger Woods" type photographers. Unless you have a landlord that rents for free. Or, maybe for copies of your tfp prints.

I have no intention of being a "pro" if it means spending all my time worrying about what some other guy is up to.  I did the commercial thing in the past and it was totally not fun and completely uncreative.  What's so funny is that the thing you "pros" don't get is that some of us are just over the money thing.  I guess it must sound like pig latin, but I'll say it again:  Some of us just take photographs because we love taking photographs.  As for taking it seriously, trust me I don't.  Matter of fact, most of us TFP/CD guys laugh about how much carping and whining the "pros" do about us.  It's really kind of flattering to see how much time is spent worrying about what we do...

Glamour Boulevard wrote:
As for the GWC not knowing we exist, they do, they are allover this site and the others and they talk to these girls a lot" hey, he might be good and all, but *Ill* shoot you for free". Guess where they go to get their pics?

Why would you bother working with a model who can't tell a good photographer from a bad one?  No wonder you guys have so much trouble with wanabees and newbies flaking out on you.  If someone would rather shoot with a guy who does crap than me, more power to them.  I have enough interesting, creative, mature, artistic subjects to work with.  You deal with trying to squeeze pennies from silly wanabees...I've got a book to get published.

Michael Strider wrote:
“Based on a True Storyâ€?

We must be realistic with ourselves. There are only 2 reasons why a photographer would do these ‘tfp’ shoots.

There are many great models as well as photographers on OMP and MM. However, I feel that this ‘tfp’ concept has worked against us rather than for us.

I'm sure this has been beaten to death already, but there are LOADS of reasons, *NOT* just two, why a photographer would do TFP (models too).

And, you act as if TFP is "new".  It's not.  It's been around as long as there has been photography, and *I* can personally attest to at least 30 years of that, and direct interaction with people who could put that another 30+ years back.

TFP has worked *FOR* us more than ever.  It's how most of us got our experiences, whether it was a girlfriend in high school, or wannabe's knocking on your door or slipping notes into your locker.

TFP *IS* the way.

And, I'd love models who wanted to do TFP 10, 20, or 30 times!  Heck, at that rate, I'd probably work for them a whole day or weekend for whatever they wanted!  Do you *know* or have any idea what a model you *want* to shoot 20 or 30 times is worth, especially if *SHE* wants to do it too???

But, as I said, I'm sure it has all be said before.

*AND* FWIW if I had a model doing that much TFP, I'd probably be making money on her, and passing some of it to her. If I saw that much in her, others would have to as well.  TFP *doesn't* mean the photographer keeps all the money.  You want to keep working, you need to spread it around when it appears.  Nothing encourages someone like getting a check for images you sold, or royalties come in. 

But, I digress.

So, the reason for TFP????   Time Favored PARTNERSHIPS.  Totally Fantastic Paychecks/Prints/Pictures/Photos/etc.     

Give it a try.

Scott
aka Bodyartist

Amanda Schlicher wrote:
And some of us are. But that doesn't make us evil or wrong, Melvin.  My take is, I have to do something to pay the bills, and if I can do that behind a camera, that's great.  I don't want to and don't have to work at Pick N Save (or even have a high paying job in another field) in order to do photography. 
People who give away services reduce the value of the service and make it harder for those trying to make a living to do so.  It's supply and demand.  Who wants to pay for ice cream when there is someone giving away ice cream on the corner? (regardless of the quality of the ice cream of either circumstance.)

I totally agree with you Amanda.

I lose so many potential clients (models especially), because under normal circumstances I charge for my services. (Or because they want me to pay for their travel expenses, when I am just trying get by and make a living at what I do.)

If I agree to do a TFP/CD rather than pay or get paid, why would I be expected to come out of my pocket?

I do sometimes make exceptions, (for local models) when I see a potntial for future work, but even then sometimes that doesn't work out, and  I still wind up biting the bullet financially.