Photographer
Michael Strider
Posts: 6
Greensboro, Alabama, US
âBased on a True Storyâ?
A few weeks ago I was doing a shoot in my studio with a friend of mine who had 3 âmodelâ friends along with him. I overheard one of the girls saying to the others, âWhy would I PAY a photographer? Girl, you should NEVER PAY A PHOTOGRAPHER!!â? Needless to say these statements almost made me sick! However, I understood why she would say that. Another girl was telling everyone that she had shot with about 15 different photographers for FREE in the past 30 days and had even shot with one guy more than TEN TIMES FOR FREE!! She was not getting paid by a company/customer. I looked at the young ladyâs profiles on MM as well as OMP and she did have a ton of stuff by this person as well as other photographers. What I cannot understand is that this particular photographer is INCREDIBLE! I in turn viewed his OMP/MM and I noticed that his portfolio consisted of many people that had approached me about doing FREE/TFP shoots. I was told that he makes his income by doing weddings so therefore he could shoot models for FREE.
We must be realistic with ourselves. There are only 2 reasons why a photographer would do these âtfpâ shoots. One is to get shots for their portfolio, which all of us have done at one time or another. Maybe thereâs that special idea that we want to work on and test. The other reason and I have to say most often used is merely to take shots of beautiful women. There is absolutely no reason that a photographer would shoot the same person more than TEN TIMES FOR FREE! As I said, I certainly understand why models would not pay a photographer when they can get great shots for FREE.
There are many great models as well as photographers on OMP and MM. However, I feel that this âtfpâ concept has worked against us rather than for us.
Model
Angel Tara
Posts: 2214
Charlotte, North Carolina, US
Michael Strider wrote:
There is absolutely no reason that a photographer would shoot the same person more than TEN TIMES FOR FREE! As I said, I certainly understand why models would not pay a photographer when they can get great shots for FREE.
There are many great models as well as photographers on OMP and MM. However, I feel that this âtfpâ concept has worked against us rather than for us. Unless she/he is the photographer's muse...
I have shot with a certain photographer 9 or 10 times, and he is awesome. And I'm sure we will continue to shoot.
we also refer each other for paid work. so it works out...
Photographer
Elin Striga
Posts: 77
Örebro, Örebro, Sweden
Michael, I Agree with you.
However, if you're just in it to have fun then nothing's wrong with collaborations. But here's the key: Do you shoot for hobby or are you trying to make a living as a photographer? I think that's the question everybody should ask themselves. Even models - do you model for fun or to try to make it in the industry?
Photographer
David Linke
Posts: 488
Woodville, Ohio, US
Michael Strider wrote:
âBased on a True Storyâ?
A few weeks ago I was doing a shoot in my studio with a friend of mine who had 3 âmodelâ friends along with him. I overheard one of the girls saying to the others, âWhy would I PAY a photographer? Girl, you should NEVER PAY A PHOTOGRAPHER!!â? Needless to say these statements almost made me sick! However, I understood why she would say that. Another girl was telling everyone that she had shot with about 15 different photographers for FREE in the past 30 days and had even shot with one guy more than TEN TIMES FOR FREE!! She was not getting paid by a company/customer. I looked at the young ladyâs profiles on MM as well as OMP and she did have a ton of stuff by this person as well as other photographers. What I cannot understand is that this particular photographer is INCREDIBLE! I in turn viewed his OMP/MM and I noticed that his portfolio consisted of many people that had approached me about doing FREE/TFP shoots. I was told that he makes his income by doing weddings so therefore he could shoot models for FREE.
We must be realistic with ourselves. There are only 2 reasons why a photographer would do these âtfpâ shoots. One is to get shots for their portfolio, which all of us have done at one time or another. Maybe thereâs that special idea that we want to work on and test. The other reason and I have to say most often used is merely to take shots of beautiful women. There is absolutely no reason that a photographer would shoot the same person more than TEN TIMES FOR FREE! As I said, I certainly understand why models would not pay a photographer when they can get great shots for FREE.
There are many great models as well as photographers on OMP and MM. However, I feel that this âtfpâ concept has worked against us rather than for us. While I am not quite as charitable as the photographer mentioned in you story, I am working under somewhat of the same process.
I am a portrait photographer by traid. It's how I feed my family. I photograph wedding , seniors, families, and what ever else helps pay the bill that week.
I also shoot some TFP sessions with models. I use the TFP sessions to test new equipment, and props before putting them into service with paying clients, and to allow a creative outlet for the ideas that I have that are not the type of imagery that my gegular clients are looking for.
TFP allows me to sharpen my skills when I would normally have down time, and keeps me from becoming lost in the "typical" shoots that most customers are looking for.
The flip side is that my paying customer work is now showing a slightly edgier style that is allowing me to develope a nitch market for women's glamour that most of the other studios in my area are not persueing.
Photographer
Kentsoul
Posts: 9739
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US
Michael Strider wrote:
âBased on a True Storyâ?
A few weeks ago I was doing a shoot in my studio with a friend of mine who had 3 âmodelâ friends along with him. I overheard one of the girls saying to the others, âWhy would I PAY a photographer? Girl, you should NEVER PAY A PHOTOGRAPHER!!â? Needless to say these statements almost made me sick! However, I understood why she would say that. Another girl was telling everyone that she had shot with about 15 different photographers for FREE in the past 30 days and had even shot with one guy more than TEN TIMES FOR FREE!! She was not getting paid by a company/customer. I looked at the young ladyâs profiles on MM as well as OMP and she did have a ton of stuff by this person as well as other photographers. What I cannot understand is that this particular photographer is INCREDIBLE! I in turn viewed his OMP/MM and I noticed that his portfolio consisted of many people that had approached me about doing FREE/TFP shoots. I was told that he makes his income by doing weddings so therefore he could shoot models for FREE.
We must be realistic with ourselves. There are only 2 reasons why a photographer would do these âtfpâ shoots. One is to get shots for their portfolio, which all of us have done at one time or another. Maybe thereâs that special idea that we want to work on and test. The other reason and I have to say most often used is merely to take shots of beautiful women. There is absolutely no reason that a photographer would shoot the same person more than TEN TIMES FOR FREE! As I said, I certainly understand why models would not pay a photographer when they can get great shots for FREE.
There are many great models as well as photographers on OMP and MM. However, I feel that this âtfpâ concept has worked against us rather than for us. Some of us aren't in this for the money. That's about the long and short of it.
Photographer
Amanda Schlicher
Posts: 1131
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, US
Melvin Moten Jr wrote:
Some of us aren't in this for the money. That's about the long and short of it. And some of us are. But that doesn't make us evil or wrong, Melvin. My take is, I have to do something to pay the bills, and if I can do that behind a camera, that's great. I don't want to and don't have to work at Pick N Save (or even have a high paying job in another field) in order to do photography.
People who give away services reduce the value of the service and make it harder for those trying to make a living to do so. It's supply and demand. Who wants to pay for ice cream when there is someone giving away ice cream on the corner? (regardless of the quality of the ice cream of either circumstance.)
Photographer
2Life Photography
Posts: 16
Phoenix, Arizona, US
I disagree with this completely. Saying we as photographers are hurting the industry doing TFCD shooting is like saying that an airline pilot hurts the industry when he climbs into his Piper Cherokee to fly a bunch of friends up to a local ski resort to go skiing, or a sous-chef hurts his industry when he creates his signature dishes for a social function at the church he attends.
Paid shoots are going to come or not regardless of TFP/TFCD. A commercial client worth anything will never ask for sellable images through a TFP/TFCD shoot. Yes, I know it happens, but there is such thing as professional ethics and I believe that ethics will get one a long way.
I work mostly weddings myself -- I make pretty good money shooting weddings, general portraiture, familys, seniors, that sort of thing. It's not my full-time day job but I'm working towards it, just collecting digital equipment for now. I used to be completely film (4x5 and meduim format as well as 35mm) and still have all that stuff, but the digital is what people want these days. I also shoot aviation for a mid-range aviation magazine, and I sell big prints to people of their airplanes. This isn't really steady work but when it happens the profit margin is pretty decent, and it's more fun than should be allowed. I could probably charge models, and I've done that before, but I don't NEED to charge models to shoot in order to make ends meet.
However, I do enjoy shooting models. I'm a people person and I love to hang out with cool people and just go out and play and make creative pictures. A HUGE benefit for me of shooting creative TFP/TFCD stuff is that I can use some of the fun stuff I've come up with just playing around in working with brides and engagement shoots and senior portraits, and overall general portraiture, and I've made some very cool pictures for people and that increases my print sales. I've also made mom cry when she sees how grown up her little girl is, and that's the best part of all. Many of the models I've shot TFP/TFCD with have become some of my best friends, and that aspect is most important of all. There are a couple of girls out there I'll shoot with as often as they want to because we connect so well.
The TFP/TFCD agreement makes neither the photographer nor the model any money, EXCEPT in that it can generate new paid shoots for either or both. It can help a potential model determine whether he or she really has what it take or even really wants to join the cut-throat world that is professional modeling. It can also help the photographer refine techniques and get good pictures for his portfolio. A photographer can be the best in the world, but if the model doesn't have it then the model doesn't have it. But if the model likes the pictures, and the photographer gets to play with new ideas or new techniques or new equipment, then it's a big bonus for everyone.
Photographer
D. Brian Nelson
Posts: 5477
Rapid City, South Dakota, US
Actually, there are all kinds of reasons for testing or whatever the PC word is now. Photographers hanging with chicks is, of course, one. Models making connections through the shooter, too. Making art is another. Making stock photographs, a third. Even if the intent is commercial (eventual sales as art or stock) most models prefer my photographs to money (if that means they can't have my photographs).
When I was a commercial photographer I paid models if I was providing models for the photoshoot. Otherwise, models paid me for portfolio stuff. As an art photographer I seldom pay models and models never pay me.
There's room for everyone here, provided people quit insisting that the only way to do things is the way they do things.
-Don
Model
Inferi
Posts: 12930
Eagan, Minnesota, US
What is the big deal??? Geeze people! Do what work for you and leave behind what doesn't. If you choose to shoot TFP or not, it neither makes you a good or bad person; it's just the stance you take on your hobby/business. If a photographer does not agree with the models stance, or vice versa, then move on to someone who does.
Photographer
R Michael Walker
Posts: 11987
Costa Mesa, California, US
THen there is the aspect of the photo artist who counts on repeated shoots with the same model to develope the knowledge necessary to create lasting images of that very personal nature as opposed to the cookie cutter imagery so prevelant in the portfolios of "photographers" and "models' today. The muse idea that was mentioned earlier. Edward Weston shot Charis for many years and these are his strongest images of a woman. Emitt Gown shot Edith...marrierd her! So did Harry Callahan. And I find MONEY a bad motivator for art. It requires collorabition and the desire to create the images.
Mike
Model
Iona Lynn
Posts: 11176
Oakland, California, US
Conversly why would any model shoot 10 times for free?? with the same photographer? how much more can she learn over say three to five shoots with him?
and Just how diffrent are these images she is getting from him?
Although the muse idea is warrented maybe they live close together and get along well.
There are few photographers I have shot with more than once and more I plan on shooting with more than once. They were fun and I got fantastic images. That is if they are willing to shoot me again.
there are others who I would not shoot with again tfp weird chemistry and I felt the images were not up to par with what I already have, and still others who if they said I no longer shoot tfp or you can't give me what I need for my portfolio"
I'd pony up some cash right away
Photographer
D. Brian Nelson
Posts: 5477
Rapid City, South Dakota, US
Iona Lynn wrote:
Although the muse idea is warrented maybe they live close together and get along well. Yep, the muse thing. Very, very rare. If anyone wonders if they are or have a muse, they aren't or don't. When it's happening, it's screamingly obvious.
-Don
Photographer
Click Hamilton
Posts: 36555
San Diego, California, US
Michael Strider wrote:
There is absolutely no reason that a photographer would shoot the same person more than TEN TIMES FOR FREE! As I said, I certainly understand why models would not pay a photographer when they can get great shots for FREE.
There are many great models as well as photographers on OMP and MM. However, I feel that this âtfpâ concept has worked against us rather than for us. Money isn't everything. Costs and benefits go far beyond dollars and cents. Opportunities are where we find them. Wealth comes from ideas, and from the heart & soul. People who chase money-money-money are always at least 2 steps behind.
Besides, most photographers and models don't have any money anyway. So we may as well be kind about it and help each other out as kindred spirits.
Less than 10% of the fishermen (and fishermodels) catch 95% of the fish
I've never charged for TFP ;-)
Photographer
Click Hamilton
Posts: 36555
San Diego, California, US
Iona Lynn wrote:
Although the muse idea is warrented maybe they live close together and get along well. D. Brian Nelson wrote:
Yep, the muse thing. Very, very rare. If anyone wonders if they are or have a muse, they aren't or don't. When it's happening, it's screamingly obvious.
-Don Relationships build. We all have our favorites, eh?
Photographer
Jay Bowman
Posts: 6511
Los Angeles, California, US
I understand your frustration. However, I've never viewed the end-all way to earn money with photography as shooting models for their portfolios. I've never heard of anyone who earns a substancial portion of their photography income that way. Sure, it can be a little unsettling to see the attitude from a model that she would never pay a photographer. By the same token, there are plenty of photographers that balk at the notion of ever paying a model. It's certainly a two-way street.
Just like it takes time for me to build a marketable body of work to go after clients, it's the same for a model. If one builds his or her portfolio without ever paying for the services on the opposite side of the camera, well, fine for you. It's nothing to be proud of in-and-of itself; it depends on how good that portfolio is.
And a definite truth is that many don't aspire beyond the actual photo they can help create. For some, the goal itself is either to be beautiful in photos or to make others beautiful in them. And there's nothing at all wrong with that. Many of the people who've built stunning portfolios solely on trades fall into that category. Sure, some are booking lots of work, but it isn't realistic that the majority are. There just aren't enough clients to go around. And again, that may not even be the ultimate intent.
Photographer
Tog
Posts: 55204
Birmingham, Alabama, US
To quote South Park: "DEY TUK UR JUB!" Sorry, had to get that out of the way.. It seems like it might be a useful discussion of the different ways and means of making money in the photography business, as they seem to be very different, and the mindsets of different ends of the business seem to go at odds with each on these forums. Example: Fashion shooters and product shooters are doing jobs for clients and would never expect a model or a stylist or anyone else involved except the company doing the job. For portrait shooters the model/subject IS the client. Which seems to be where it gets trickier with the whole TFP thing.. How do you build up a clientel(sp?) if you don't work up a portfolio? Once your portfolio is built up how do you start charging for what you've, up til now, done for free? Especially if other people are still doing it for free.. Sounds like the OP has the bad fortune of living in the same region as someone who's made it in one niche and found he likes shooting another as a hobby. That sucks, but there's not much you can do (unless you can convince the guy that he's so good at this new niche he should be charging.. In which case you've still got competition..) Unfortunately, just because someone uses something to make a living doesn't mean someone else can't do it just because they like it. That'd be like saying you can't grow a garden because there are farmers, or everyone must walk, because some people run competitively.. On the other hand if we could convince everyone in San Diego to stop driving like idiots because it hurts professional race car drivers..  But I'm sliding way off my original point.. What are all the various niches in the photography industry of making money? WGR
Photographer
Tomi Hawk
Posts: 1649
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Iona Lynn wrote:
Conversly why would any model shoot 10 times for free?? with the same photographer? how much more can she learn over say three to five shoots with him?
and Just how diffrent are these images she is getting from him?
Although the muse idea is warrented maybe they live close together and get along well.
There are few photographers I have shot with more than once and more I plan on shooting with more than once. They were fun and I got fantastic images. That is if they are willing to shoot me again.
there are others who I would not shoot with again tfp weird chemistry and I felt the images were not up to par with what I already have, and still others who if they said I no longer shoot tfp or you can't give me what I need for my portfolio"
I'd pony up some cash right away Great attitude Lynn .. love it ..
And Michael .. I feel ya man .. thats why I'm sorta *semi retired* at shooting ..
Mind you .. I still do the 35 hundred dollar weddings, and the occasional senior portriat, or the family group shot with *fido* .. :p
I left Hawaii, when GWC's came in from the *mainland* and sold weddings as .. 35mm shot, and gave away all the negs .. reason they *gave away the negs* was they *didnt wanna bother* .. My response was .. "you dont wanna bother with an additional added income annually of .. sayyy .. like .. 20 grand"? (or more) lmao!
The thing about it was .. the Brides would leap at them for selling weddings at 399.99 .. and not even listen to what they were saying .. they were simply *blinded by the light* .. then .. several months later .. I would hear from said bride .. saying .. "wow .. Tomi, you were right .. the guy's stuff blows ..what can we do"?
Easy .. put yr dress back on .. go re-rent the tux .. and lets do something on location .. or, even go back to the church/synagogue/temple/whatever .. and *this* .. is what its gonna cost you ..
Hell .. my processing cost more then 399.99 lmfao!
However .. the world of modeling has obviously changed since the internet was born ... sad.. but true .. and .. to *our* surprise .. there seems to be alotta *qualified* gwc's out there .. (now that the digi has also been born) add the two together .. annd walla .. TFP/CD .. *you scratch my back--I scratch yours* ..
I'll do the tfp/cd thang myself .. have done, and will continue to do so .. I guess its a way to sorta .. hmm ... gain that *trust* (on the internet) annnd .. perhaps .. specially if the model is really, really, really hot .. it'll add to the website, port .. or.. say to another model in so many words .. "she worked with him.. and had nice thngs to say and was happy .. should work for me as well"
MOST of the work on my port was commisioned work .. very little of it is tfp/cd .. besides .. I'm *still* new to Florida .. after moving here from Hawaii .. its another way for *me* to get my word out ... and *show* people that I'm *capable*.
Its a comPLETEly different world here, as opposed to where I'm from .. so .. when in Rome, do as the Romans do?
All I can say is .. thank God for Weddings .. and the occasional *paying* model ..
Tomi
Photographer
Jeff Navarro
Posts: 30
Denver, Colorado, US
Iona Lynn wrote:
why would any model shoot 10 times for free?? with the same photographer? how much more can she learn over say three to five shoots with him? and Just how diffrent are these images she is getting from him? There's only a few models that I've had the priviledge of shooting many many times..... it's not a matter of "how much more can she learn".... a relationship between the right photographer and model, developed over time can produce very special images and depends on much more than convenience or whether it's free or not!
Maybe you've felt "weird chemistry" with certain photograpers and won't shoot with them again.. that's perfect. With others the shoot was fun or whatever, and maybe you liked the images, but the rapport and great chemistry that creates really truly awesome work only gets better with every shoot!
Photographer
Dave Krueger
Posts: 2851
Huntsville, Alabama, US
Michael Strider wrote:
There are only 2 reasons why a photographer would do these âtfpâ shoots. One is to get shots for their portfolio, which all of us have done at one time or another. Maybe thereâs that special idea that we want to work on and test. The other reason and I have to say most often used is merely to take shots of beautiful women. Wow! I could turn this upside down and ask what reason a model would work for nothing more than prints. It almost sounds like you're suggesting that photographers are the only ones bringing anything of value to the shoot.
I shoot TFP and when nudity is involved, I even go so far as to pay models with actual MONEY (as well as prints) for their time, even though I probably won't make a single dime from any pictures we do. I do not shoot a single picture for a model. Everything I do, I do for me. If they can use some of the pictures in their portfolios, then great, but I don't take requests.
Since I don't do any editing, the models I use must have very good skin. I also don't shoot anyone with tan lines, tattoos, or implants, which leaves very few to work with. If a model with those qualities is willing to work with me merely for copies of the prints, then I'm happy as a pig in shit.
-Dave
Photographer
Amanda Schlicher
Posts: 1131
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, US
Tomi Images wrote:
Great attitude Lynn .. love it ..
And Michael .. I feel ya man .. thats why I'm sorta *semi retired* at shooting ..
Mind you .. I still do the 35 hundred dollar weddings, and the occasional senior portriat, or the family group shot with *fido* .. :p
I left Hawaii, when GWC's came in from the *mainland* and sold weddings as .. 35mm shot, and gave away all the negs .. reason they *gave away the negs* was they *didnt wanna bother* .. My response was .. "you dont wanna bother with an additional added income annually of .. sayyy .. like .. 20 grand"? (or more) lmao!
The thing about it was .. the Brides would leap at them for selling weddings at 399.99 .. and not even listen to what they were saying .. they were simply *blinded by the light* .. then .. several months later .. I would hear from said bride .. saying .. "wow .. Tomi, you were right .. the guy's stuff blows ..what can we do"?
Easy .. put yr dress back on .. go re-rent the tux .. and lets do something on location .. or, even go back to the church/synagogue/temple/whatever .. and *this* .. is what its gonna cost you ..
Hell .. my processing cost more then 399.99 lmfao!
However .. the world of modeling has obviously changed since the internet was born ... sad.. but true .. and .. to *our* surprise .. there seems to be alotta *qualified* gwc's out there .. (now that the digi has also been born) add the two together .. annd walla .. TFP/CD .. *you scratch my back--I scratch yours* ..
I'll do the tfp/cd thang myself .. have done, and will continue to do so .. I guess its a way to sorta .. hmm ... gain that *trust* (on the internet) annnd .. perhaps .. specially if the model is really, really, really hot .. it'll add to the website, port .. or.. say to another model in so many words .. "she worked with him.. and had nice thngs to say and was happy .. should work for me as well"
MOST of the work on my port was commisioned work .. very little of it is tfp/cd .. besides .. I'm *still* new to Florida .. after moving here from Hawaii .. its another way for *me* to get my word out ... and *show* people that I'm *capable*.
Its a comPLETEly different world here, as opposed to where I'm from .. so .. when in Rome, do as the Romans do?
All I can say is .. thank God for Weddings .. and the occasional *paying* model ..
Tomi I agree with you but your post is nearly impossible to read. Try less extraneous punctuation.
And.... WORD! I'll never understand wedding photographers who give away negs. The company I work for makes a hell of a lot of money selling prints. If people had any idea how many prints they could sell if they are well marketed... I fill about $300 worth of print orders EVERY DAY I'm in the office, and that's above and beyond what was paid to book the shoot in the first place.
Photographer
Jeff Navarro
Posts: 30
Denver, Colorado, US
Amanda Schlicher wrote:
And some of us are. But that doesn't make us evil or wrong, Melvin. My take is, I have to do something to pay the bills, and if I can do that behind a camera, that's great. I don't want to and don't have to work at Pick N Save (or even have a high paying job in another field) in order to do photography.
People who give away services reduce the value of the service and make it harder for those trying to make a living to do so. It's supply and demand. Who wants to pay for ice cream when there is someone giving away ice cream on the corner? (regardless of the quality of the ice cream of either circumstance.) The person who will accept crappy free ice cream when there is mouthwateringly delicious ice cream available at a premium (but fair) price is NOT the person I care to sell my ice cream to.... And I'd rather give my ice cream freely to someone who truly appreciates its quality and uniqueness than compete on price with the DQs of the world!!
If your goal as a "fashion photographer" is to make a living from selling model portfolio shoots, your sights are way too low..... my philosophy is that there is always room at the top, the brutal competition and vicious scramble only exists at the level of mediocrity... The universe always makes room for someone with special talent and determination.
Photographer
Amanda Schlicher
Posts: 1131
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, US
Jeff Navarro wrote:
The person who will accept crappy free ice cream when there is mouthwateringly delicious ice cream available at a premium (but fair) price is NOT the person I care to sell my ice cream to.... And I'd rather give my ice cream freely to someone who truly appreciates its quality and uniqueness than compete on price with the DQs of the world!!
If your goal as a "fashion photographer" is to make a living from selling model portfolio shoots, your sights are way too low..... my philosophy is that there is always room at the top, the brutal competition and vicious scramble only exists at the level of mediocrity... The universe always makes room for someone with special talent and determination. My goal is not to make a living from selling model portfolios, it's just a part of the market that is getting less and less available.
Photographer
The Art of CIP
Posts: 1074
Long Beach, California, US
If I hear another photographer claiming that TFP lessens the amount of paying models they get because "they can always get a photographer to shoot them for free" I'm gonna pull my hair out... News flash - if people don't want to pay then they don't perceive a product worth buying... I mean seriously folks - you can't get work because of a TFP shooter? I'm a TFP shooter - a complete amatuer. If any photographer sees me and others like me as a threat to their livliehoods - then you've already failed in your profession. You get paying clients by producing work that seperates itself from the status quo. Your work develops by you doing your OWN projects - not from your clients. The work you do for a client isn't your work - you don't own it and it isn't your vision. You are paid to push someone else's view - not your own... Anyone that complains about losing money to a TFP shooter simply isn't selling enough work - so they blame others instead of taking a step back and evaluating there own work...
Model
Iona Lynn
Posts: 11176
Oakland, California, US
Jeff Navarro wrote:
My goal is not to make a living from selling model portfolios, it's just a part of the market that is getting less and less available. Adapt or die
everything changes those who used to make money one way have to change and learn to make money another way. we all do it or we fail.
Photographer
La Seine by the Hudson
Posts: 8587
New York, New York, US
Jay Bowman wrote:
I understand your frustration. However, I've never viewed the end-all way to earn money with photography as shooting models for their portfolios. I've never heard of anyone who earns a substancial portion of their photography income that way. Sure, it can be a little unsettling to see the attitude from a model that she would never pay a photographer. By the same token, there are plenty of photographers that balk at the notion of ever paying a model. It's certainly a two-way street.
Just like it takes time for me to build a marketable body of work to go after clients, it's the same for a model. If one builds his or her portfolio without ever paying for the services on the opposite side of the camera, well, fine for you. It's nothing to be proud of in-and-of itself; it depends on how good that portfolio is.
And a definite truth is that many don't aspire beyond the actual photo they can help create. For some, the goal itself is either to be beautiful in photos or to make others beautiful in them. And there's nothing at all wrong with that. Many of the people who've built stunning portfolios solely on trades fall into that category. Sure, some are booking lots of work, but it isn't realistic that the majority are. There just aren't enough clients to go around. And again, that may not even be the ultimate intent. I used to know quite a few but those days are over (for better or worse or whatever). That bird has flown and places like this and people like those on it have played their role in that shift.
Photographer
GOTHIC HANGMAN STUDIOS
Posts: 208
New York, New York, US
Sometimes it is easier to work with people are ones familliar cause you know what you can get out of them. Working with the same moels can often be a asset and a pleasure and when the morf looks or give you something different it's a testament to creativity,I like to force the same model something completely other based upon theme.
Many of us would like to be paid hansomly but if that is a primary concern right out the gate your gonna fail. Firstly doing it for ARTS SAKE is far beyond the mentality of Point & Click Shutterbugs that just get the most exquisit models....that's like shooting fish in a barrel or using a stocked pond.
Now since I am known in my area fortunately alot of people in my social scene who are fetish or altenative know me and want to collaberate,these people I shoot TFP in addition to any other model that asks if it fits into my Artistic Vission. I would never pay a model since I have enough friends here and the more they want to work with me the better!
Model
~*Isabel Aurora*~
Posts: 5778
Boca del Mar, Florida, US
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**********************************************Ok Ok I think people are missing a big point here, Michael said that one of the models, in front of him - the photographer - none the less, said to the other models that they should never pay a photographer.
I think this model was out of line and that was rude. Whether a model choses to pay a photographer, or whether a photographer choses to do TFP is their perrogative, but to state something like that in front of the photographer (who is doing the model a favor) is selfish and ignorant....
Photographer
La Seine by the Hudson
Posts: 8587
New York, New York, US
The Art of CIP wrote:
If I hear another photographer claiming that TFP lessens the amount of paying models they get because "they can always get a photographer to shoot them for free" I'm gonna pull my hair out... News flash - if people don't want to pay then they don't perceive a product worth buying... I mean seriously folks - you can't get work because of a TFP shooter? I'm a TFP shooter - a complete amatuer. If any photographer sees me and others like me as a threat to their livliehoods - then you've already failed in your profession. You get paying clients by producing work that seperates itself from the status quo. Your work develops by you doing your OWN projects - not from your clients. The work you do for a client isn't your work - you don't own it and it isn't your vision. You are paid to push someone else's view - not your own... Anyone that complains about losing money to a TFP shooter simply isn't selling enough work - so they blame others instead of taking a step back and evaluating there own work... This would SEEM to be true, but....
In how many markets has a valuable, quality product or service been wiped out from competition later on by something that is or is perceived to be cheaper and more convenient and quality be damned? True, there's often a niche market that still exists but it's rarely worthwhile for many to even try to court that...
Is this a good thing? I don't necessarily think so.
Photographer
Jay Bowman
Posts: 6511
Los Angeles, California, US
Marko Cecic-Karuzic wrote:
I used to know quite a few but those days are over (for better or worse or whatever). That bird has flown and places like this and people like those on it have played their role in that shift. Ha! An excellent point. Which raises another concept I've considered that I'd like your opinion on. It's more of an aside than anything. Is it okay if I message it your way (as opposed to a thread-jack here)?
Photographer
J Andrescavage Photo
Posts: 3339
San Francisco, California, US
Eh, I'm a student, so TFP for me means practice shooting something other than a rusty bolt in a plank of wood- or whatever my current assignment is. I've shot with friends on multiple occasions, I've shot with one of our dear MM ladies on 3 separate occasions, and more than likely I'll shoot with her again since we're constantly throwing ideas back and forth. At some point I will obviously look to take it to the next step. But until then TFP is the greatest thing since sliced bread and I'll practice with as few or as many pretty faces who will let me point a camera at them...
Model
~*Isabel Aurora*~
Posts: 5778
Boca del Mar, Florida, US
CrazyIsabelAurora wrote:
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**********************************************Ok Ok I think people are missing a big point here, Michael said that one of the models, in front of him - the photographer - none the less, said to the other models that they should never pay a photographer.
. One more time...since no one listens to me much lol
Photographer
Dalmar
Posts: 319
Miami, Florida, US
Michael Strider wrote:
âBased on a True Storyâ?
..... I looked at the young ladyâs profiles on MM as well as OMP and she did have a ton of stuff by this person as well as other photographers. What I cannot understand is that this particular photographer is INCREDIBLE! .....
.... There are only 2 reasons why a photographer would do these âtfpâ shoots. One is to get shots for their portfolio, which all of us have done at one time or another. Maybe thereâs that special idea that we want to work on and test. The other reason and I have to say most often used is merely to take shots of beautiful women.... I think the answer is contained within the questions. How do you think he got to be INCREDIBLE? Let me ask this....how many times do you think either of the Super Bowl teams practiced before and between games that counted?
So I would offer a thrid reason to your two: to get experience, and once experienced, to stay sharp. Not everyone does this for a living. Some of us just want to get better. And that includes models and photographers. As far as I'm concerned, it's a win-win.
And for the full time photographers that complain that it's taking money out of your pocket, can you seriously say that most of the models doing TFP would ever actually pay for images even if there were no such thing as TFP? I don't. If they were professional models with representation, the agency would be sending them to the photographers they have established relationships with.
The vast majority of the models on this and other portfolio type websites do not model for a living. It's a side income at most. These TFP's give them something to show in their portfolio, gets them face time in front of the lens, and gives them a better chance to take it to the next level. It also can give them the chance to work with some really good photographers, as your post pointed out.
I have no problem with TFP's. Anyone in Miami want to do one? I'm always interested....lol.
Dale
Photographer
GOTHIC HANGMAN STUDIOS
Posts: 208
New York, New York, US
CrazyIsabelAurora wrote:
I think this model was out of line and that was rude. Whether a model choses to pay a photographer, or whether a photographer choses to do TFP is their perrogative, but to state something like that in front of the photographer (who is doing the model a favor) is selfish and ignorant.... YES IT WAS A RUDE STATEMENT...MODELS OFTEN ARE SELFISH & IGNORANT!!!
Now I dont want to make a blanket statement for most girls that want to do this for a real profession,give me a break! They should be happy that TFP is available and not look a gift horse in the mouth,or go shoot with a creep that wants them to take their close off for the wrong reasons...I would have said something to her about her rudeness!
Photographer
Bryan Benoit
Posts: 2106
Miami, Florida, US
Dalmar wrote:
I think the answer is contained within the questions. How do you think he got to be INCREDIBLE? Let me ask this....how many times do you think either of the Super Bowl teams practiced before and between games that counted?
So I would offer a thrid reason to your two: to get experience, and once experienced, to stay sharp. Not everyone does this for a living. Some of us just want to get better. And that includes models and photographers. As far as I'm concerned, it's a win-win.
And for the full time photographers that complain that it's taking money out of your pocket, can you seriously say that most of the models doing TFP would ever actually pay for images even if there were no such thing as TFP? I don't. If they were professional models with representation, the agency would be sending them to the photographers they have established relationships with.
The vast majority of the models on this and other portfolio type websites do not model for a living. It's a side income at most. These TFP's give them something to show in their portfolio, gets them face time in front of the lens, and gives them a better chance to take it to the next level. It also can give them the chance to work with some really good photographers, as your post pointed out.
I have no problem with TFP's. Anyone in Miami want to do one? I'm always interested....lol.
Dale Anytime Dale.. opps.. I forgot... I am fat and ugly... maybe next time.
My photography is mostly a hobby as I have a regular job that pays the bills. It is basically my choice to offer TFCD or not and don't understand why others would have a problem with it...
Photographer
Dalmar
Posts: 319
Miami, Florida, US
Bryan Benoit wrote:
Anytime Dale.. opps.. I forgot... I am fat and ugly... maybe next time. Me too Bryan...that's why I'll bring a model to shoot. Let's get together for that shoot we talked about. Sindy is working the next couple of weekends, but maybe after that.
Dale
Photographer
Monsante Bey
Posts: 2111
Columbus, Georgia, US
CrazyIsabelAurora wrote:
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**********************************************Ok Ok I think people are missing a big point here, Michael said that one of the models, in front of him - the photographer - none the less, said to the other models that they should never pay a photographer.
I think this model was out of line and that was rude. Whether a model choses to pay a photographer, or whether a photographer choses to do TFP is their perrogative, but to state something like that in front of the photographer (who is doing the model a favor) is selfish and ignorant.... I hear ya.
It gets worse when they just expect that because they're cute that you're just supposed to want to do a TFP.
Nevermind that SOMEONE has to pay the MUA
Nevermind that SOMEONE has to buy film & get the pics developed (i'm a film guy)
Nevermind that SOMEONE has to pay their bills
Nevermind that SOMEONE is taking time out of their day to administer wear and tear on their equipment....
All for another persons benefit.
BUT, I will do TFP if it benefits me as equally as it benefits the model, long as they cover the MUA's fee, seeing how i'd cover film and developing.
Photographer
Lost Coast Photo
Posts: 2691
Ferndale, California, US
Angel Tara wrote:
Unless she/he is the photographer's muse... Exactly, Angel.
As usual, he's only seeing things from his own perspective. There are as many reasons to do or not do tfp as there are types of photographers and models. For a full time commercial shooter, tfp makes sense perhaps only when it has a good chance of generating paid work down the line. But for an artist, it's a fact of life. I'm sure a dozen other genres of photographers/models can and will give their reasons for or against. There's no right or wrong, there's only what works for each individual.
Model
Iona Lynn
Posts: 11176
Oakland, California, US
sheesh now you all are making me ashamed to have asked a photographer for TFP for the very first time.
I did yesterday I asked he said yes I said yes I don't feel I took advantage of him and I doubt he feels the same.
I don't look at tfp as charity it is a colaberation that is why I don't just ask every photographer for tfp and I don't shoot with every photographer tfp.
If I have knitting needles to knit a blanket and you have yarn great lets make a blanket. If all you have any extra yarn to donate great but If you have the super soft angora I'll pay for it. If all you have is crappy short pieces of cotton yarn That won't make me a very good blanket will it?
I liked his yarn a lot I wanted some.
Photographer
Monsante Bey
Posts: 2111
Columbus, Georgia, US
Iona Lynn wrote:
sheesh now you all are making me ashamed to have asked a photographer for TFP for the very first time.
I did yesterday I asked he said yes I said yes I don't feel I took advantage of him and I doubt he feels the same.
I don't look at tfp as charity it is a colaberation that is why I don't just ask every photographer for tfp and I don't shoot with every photographer tfp.
If I have knitting needles to knit a blanket and you have yarn great lets make a blanket. If all you have any ectra yarn to donate great but If you have the super soft angora I'll pay for it. I liked his yarn a lot I wanted some. Iona, it's all about the individual photographer.
I know guys that shoot just for the joy of shooting.
I know guys that do it for a living.
I know guys that do it at cost (like i'm doing until I move this summer).
Just personal perspectives.
Photographer
The Art of CIP
Posts: 1074
Long Beach, California, US
Marko Cecic-Karuzic wrote:
This would SEEM to be true, but....
In how many markets has a valuable, quality product or service been wiped out from competition later on by something that is or is perceived to be cheaper and more convenient and quality be damned? True, there's often a niche market that still exists but it's rarely worthwhile for many to even try to court that...
Is this a good thing? I don't necessarily think so. Every product that has been phased out due to market competition was an inferior product. If cost was the sole determining factor in the viability of a products existence then Ferrarri and Mercedes Benz would have went out of business long ago. I mean that's basic capitalism - competition breeds diversity. All competition does is produce different levels. Some people go to the mall and buy coffee table photography books for 20 bucks - some go directly to galleries and buy prints directly from the photographer for hundreds of dollars.
My particular arguement is against those that are complaining that TFP hurts their business... Especially when it comes down to dealing with models. Now if a photographer has a gripe because they were overlooked by say a fortune 500 company because a TFP shooter is working for free - then there's a problem with legal recourse. But We're talking about personal development. I don't know of any photographers that are in the business of TFP - but I know alot of them that get business from there TFP and tests. No matter what field you work in there will always be someone that is more desirable to work with other than you. In this case expecting models to pay doesn't make any sense. What makes sense is shooting your own ideas TFP and then soliciting corporations and publications that actually have budgets for purchasing your product.. The companies aren't buying your work? It simply means that you're attempting to work in a market that you're not qualified for - and it is time to re-evaluate your postition and make the necessarry changes in order to improve your position in the workplace.
Regardless of where someone stands on TFP or personal work that involves no pay - the simple fact is that it must be done - otherwise the artist doesn't grow... It is part of the cost of doing business. If a photographer isn't willing to do that then a client will simply pay a photographer that has - because that extra mile will show in their work. My best work isn't from what I've been paid to do - it is the work that I'm not paid to do - the work I do at 2 in the morning because I have an idea - and I'm not restrained by the criteria of my clientelle... And strangely enough that's always the first work that prospective clients want to see...
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