Sascha wrote:
It has come to my attention that recently there has been a couple of disturbing incidents where a professional male photographer with great credits and portfolio has attempted to take sexual advantage of a budding young female model with great potential.

I know that this is nothing new in our industry but everytime I hear something like this, it angers me as a model and, as a woman.  It is further disturbing that such incidents are often hushed or foregone in favor of those who have more power in the politics of the fashion industry, when in other industries harrassment and rape are not commonly ignored.  This is not even about a GWC with some clueless airheaded wannabe model... this is about real working photographers and real newfaces represented/about to get signed by top agencies... gorgeous tall girls with promising future.

I personally find such working professionals with no ethics or moral more hazardous to this industry than GWCs.  I've seen many complaints on this forum about shady or perverted GWCs, however, IMO it is also the model's fault not to be able to see the often-obvious difference between a professional photographer's portfolio and that of a GWC's prior to working with them. 

But unfortunately there ARE "professional" photographers in this business with fantastic talent that seem to lack the professionalism that should come along with their remarkable portfolio & credits... not to even mention how they give bad name to the photographer's community but this is a CRIME that seems to continue to happen way too often.  It doesn't matter if the model is a minor or above 18, straight or gay, male or female... OR if the involved parties are in a totally different market other than modeling...if it's forced, it's a crime. 

I want to send my support to those fellow models that became victims of such injustice, and hope that they keep their heads high and succeed in their careers as they trully deserve.

I think you misuderstand the term professionals in your opening statement. Just becasue they have outstanding work to taget the whole as  being that is not a true judgement on the whole. Your directions should be towards the indiviual not all male photographers. When one starts a rant about the whole body of something, you should look more to working relationships. But in any area of those calling theirselves professionals, some do standout as going over the line.

Sascha wrote:
...if it's forced, it's a crime.

Keep that part in mind. If it is not through force or threat of force, it is NOT a crime. 

Alan from Aavian Prod wrote:
Unfortunately, a lot of guys pick up a camera for the wrong reason.  The result is that models are confronted by inappropriate behavior.

I don't disagree with you often, but I will here.  For some the reason to pick up a camera is to get access to models.  Certainly one of the reasons that I'm a photographer and not a motorcycle customizer is because I can spend a lot of time in the friendly presence of beautiful women instead of greasy engine parts.

But on to the "inappropriate behaviour."  That phrase is interpreted in the context of one's background.  My models range from high school students to madams to midwestern farmers' daughters to Swedish mistresses to BDSM subbes.  Some of my models are insulted because I don't hit on them, others are appalled that I look at them as closely as I do.

Now back to the topic of professional photographers hitting on models.  There's a very long wonderful tradition of this.  I really don't know how it's working today but back in the 80's testing (TFBJ) was a fact of life in the very top levels of fashion photography.  Models were discovered or not depending on whether they put out to the right photographer.  An old friend married five fashion models in the sequence of marry one, cheat, get caught, divorce n, marry n+1, repeat.  He was sleeping with every model he could when he died leaving #5 very alone.

In addition, there are models who willingly sleep their way to the top, including all but one of the original supermodels.  That too is traditional.  Back when I could start a fashion model's career I had more "inappropriate" offers from models than I could handle.  Unfortunately, most were from models that would never make it in fashion, so taking advantage of the offers without being able to actually help was unethical, so I didn't do that.  In two cases I accepted the offers, made the connections and the girls each crashed and burned after signing with the same excellent agency, doing too much partying with the wrong pharmaceudicals in NY. 

The OP is correct.  The question is whether she should be surprised by it.  And yes, there are at least two very good, well known professional photographers here with reputations for aggressively hitting on models.  Edit:  Make that four.  Two more are here, but not very active.

Fashion and glamour photography are about sex.  Some art photography is about sex.  Don't be too surprised when real live sex enters the process.  Be prepared to say no, walk away, or go along with it.

-Don

sicilianbabe wrote:
Interesting.  Let me see if I understand this - forgive my ignorance I am new to the industry.  I have testing scheduled with 4 photogs coming up.  I should be expected to be hit on by at least three.  So what happens if you say "sorry not interested"?

ang

Are you not interested? Have you met them, talked to them? Do you feel confident that they are professional enough to work with? And knowing that you expect to get hit on by three, is that okay with you?

When I go to a shoot, I don't expect to get hit on, and by meeting/speaking with the photographers, I would hope that my professional tone is apparent. Not that you should be uptight. But professional tone breeds professional relationships. Let there be no mistake that ANYTHING is okay if it will make you feel uncomfy.

If you say "sorry, not interested" what would you expect to happen? If you are really not interested, then say it. If you are interested, but you are wary of the terms, you need to talk it out more to your liking and inderstanding. If they are professionals, they will understand. And most professional photographers are understanding and will try to make you feel as comfortable as possible.

Always be clear. Do not skirt issues because you are afraid to have them lose interest in shooting with you. Definitely do not make yourself appear diva-ish, but be smart. They will respect that if they are professionals.

sicilianbabe wrote:
Interesting.  Let me see if I understand this - forgive my ignorance I am new to the industry.  I have testing scheduled with 4 photogs coming up.  I should be expected to be hit on by at least three.  So what happens if you say "sorry not interested"?

ang

There are FEW photographers in the real world who can or would try to hurt your career intentionally or indirectly if you turned down their advances. The few that -could- but I doubt that WOULD, have last names like Testino, Weber and Meisel, and these guys are not on MM.

There are NO photographers here on the internet that can do much to your career if you don't let them have their way with you. You models have way more control and power than you think, but you never say anything, or broadcast the names of these losers because you're "waiting to get your photos back" or "He's got a lot of pull in this industry"

BS!

Chances are slim to none that a photographer or manager can damage your career or reputation.
PLEASE do not let these mutts intimidate you. If something happens on a shoot that feels inappropriate, chances are it IS inappropriate, and you should leave right away.
And from what I heard last week about a couple photographers/managers here in Florida, I would bring mace or pepperspray to photoshoots.

http://www.defensexpress.com/pepperspray.htm

sicilianbabe wrote:
Interesting.  Let me see if I understand this - forgive my ignorance I am new to the industry.  I have testing scheduled with 4 photogs coming up.  I should be expected to be hit on by at least three.  So what happens if you say "sorry not interested"?

ang

If that happens and the photographer reacts in a negative way , walk away. You can always find a good photographer to shoot pictures of you who isnt going to act in and inappropriate way with you. Always check and double check references. Always bring a buddy/chaperone with you to a shoot when working with someone new. If a photogrpaher has a problem with you bringing a chaperone  to the shoot thats usually a sign of trouble. If you dont have a someone to go with you to a shoot, make sure that someone knows exaclty where you are at the shoot and what time you are supposed to be finished and calls to check on you. This is all basic safety advice.

Sascha wrote:
It has come to my attention that recently there has been a couple of disturbing incidents where a professional male photographer with great credits and portfolio has attempted to take sexual advantage of a budding young female model with great potential.

I know that this is nothing new in our industry but everytime I hear something like this, it angers me as a model and, as a woman.  It is further disturbing that such incidents are often hushed or foregone in favor of those who have more power in the politics of the fashion industry, when in other industries harrassment and rape are not commonly ignored.  This is not even about a GWC with some clueless airheaded wannabe model... this is about real working photographers and real newfaces represented/about to get signed by top agencies... gorgeous tall girls with promising future.

I personally find such working professionals with no ethics or moral more hazardous to this industry than GWCs.  I've seen many complaints on this forum about shady or perverted GWCs, however, IMO it is also the model's fault not to be able to see the often-obvious difference between a professional photographer's portfolio and that of a GWC's prior to working with them. 

But unfortunately there ARE "professional" photographers in this business with fantastic talent that seem to lack the professionalism that should come along with their remarkable portfolio & credits... not to even mention how they give bad name to the photographer's community but this is a CRIME that seems to continue to happen way too often.  It doesn't matter if the model is a minor or above 18, straight or gay, male or female... OR if the involved parties are in a totally different market other than modeling...if it's forced, it's a crime. 

I want to send my support to those fellow models that became victims of such injustice, and hope that they keep their heads high and succeed in their careers as they trully deserve.

I'm always amused when I read these posts, because none of the GWCs, pervs and pornographers that I count myself among ever indulge in this kind of behavior...you have to hook up with an agency and work with established pro photographers to get properly molested, it seems.

D. Brian Nelson wrote:
Keep that part in mind. If it is not through force or threat of force, it is NOT a crime. 


I don't disagree with you often, but I will here.  For some the reason to pick up a camera is to get access to models. 

...

But on to the "inappropriate behaviour."  That phrase is interpreted in the context of one's background.

Actually Don, you are welcome to disagree, but I am not sure we disagree.  My problem is not romance within the business.  So perhaps my brief response gave the impression that I objected to it.

Heck, I was married for ten years to the woman who was the staff artist in my studio back in the 80's.  I barely knew her except to get together in meetings.  Up until that time, our only contact was after I shot the photos for a poster or calendar.  We'd meet and she would go off and do her artistic thing and a few days later, she'd deliver something to send to the client for approval.

Through an odd but innocent set of circumstances, she came with me on a boat trip and we fell in love within days of getting to know each other.  People meet in the business all the time.  That is not what concerns me.  If it is about love, that isn't an issue of power.

And I can also admit that there are girls who have propositioned me over the years to get them into a magazine or help them out.  Nobody ever said that there weren't models who had motives of their own.

Likewise, I don't have any problems with people doing porn, BDSM or any variations.  My limits are Playboy style but I certainly don't judge anyone because they choose to go further.  So within the context of what you have written, I totally agree with you.

But I read the OP a little bit differently.  I will give you a couple of examples.  We had a full-time professional photographer who was a frequent renter of our studio.  He would come in from out of town to shoot.

Generally speaking he would do nudes, but occassionally not.  The quality of his work was good.  I never heard a complaint about him. 

He came to a workshop that I help sponsor in a different state.  He arranged to shoot a number of the models, but rather than shooting them during the day on the set, he shot them in the evening in his hotel room.  That wasn't a particular red flag since many of the photographers wanted individual shoots in the evening.

After the first night, I had a couple of girls comment to me that they felt he was a little bit too "touchy feely."  I suggested that we cancel the rest of the private shoots he wanted with models but the girls thought it would be alright.  I asked hiim not to shoot anymore models in the hotel, but instead at the studio (which had lots of private rooms and sets).

When the next private shoot was done, I asked the third girl how the shoot had gone.  All three models were very new.  She wanted to know why it was necessary for the photographer to put his fingers into her vagina to insert flower stems.  He was doing the American Beauty rose shot and claimed that he needed the stems inside her so the flowers wouldn't come out. 

When I heard that, I called the police (and there are several on this forum who know that is exactly how I reacted).  I started to talk with other models that had shot with him in the past and discovered a pattern of this particular guy doing more and more over time.  He was testing the bar to see what he could get away with or because none of the girls were complaining, he was thinking it was fine.

The models he had shot with in the past were experienced.  When he acted inappropriately, they controlled the situation, but never told me there was a problem (or he would have never re-rented the studio).  They just brushed it off because they had dealt with these kinds of things and knew what to do.  To some degree, I wish they had told me rather than handling it themself, but that is 20-20 hindsight.  I am sure they would have thought it would escalate as far as it did.

Operating a rental studio and sponsoring workshops, I have seen this so many times.  Fortunately, since I am present at the studio, these don't get the opportunity to escalate this far.  The fact that I am in the building usually causes guys to be more subtle, but I have seen them get bold.  There are plenty of guys that are no longer allowed to rent my studios because of their conduct.

Fortunately, it is a very small percentage of photographers that act inappropriately.  On the other hand, the number is small but significant givng models the impression that the industry is dominated by GWC's.

For me it is a challenge, every time I put on an event or get a rental request from a new photographer, to figure out who is legitimately interested in photography and who is going to be a problem   I, for one, don't want to ever exclude someone simply because they are new.

If I refer the photographer to a model I know, then I have a responsibility to her safety.  The more awkward situation is when a photographer comes and brings a model and is inappropriate.  I get put in the spot of knowing that a photographer is behaving inappropriately with a new model yet, I have to make the judgement when it is my role to intervene.  It is not an easy quesiton.

Taking some of your examples, Don, if the same situation happened in my studio with a photographer bringing his own model, I would have a hard time getting involved.  Just as you say, that could be exactly what they have agreed to in advance.  Perhaps they had decided on a porn shoot and that is what they had planned on doing.  I don't normally rent my studio for those kinds of things, but if it ends up being there, it is not for me to stop it.

On the other hand, there are too many whose motives are less than pure.  There are guys that pick up a camera because they see it as a way to get women (or in some cases men) naked.  They look at the girls who will pose as play things and treat them as such.

So I viewed the original poster to be addressing these guys not photographers who end up falling in love with one of their models.  And I by no means suggesting that there are not models who are part of the problem as well.

But if you ask me if we have any perverts among our ranks, we would be living with our head in the sand if we did not recognize the truth.

Alan from Aavian Prod wrote:
But if you ask me if we have any perverts among our ranks, we would be living with our head in the sand if we did not recognize the truth.

You called?

Melvin Moten Jr wrote:

You called?

Haha

Eric Foltz wrote:
I'll start believing all these stories about "criminal" behavior by photographers when I read a police report, followed closely by headlines in the newspapers and investigations on 60 Minutes.

I've been on these boards for a long time and have seen a post about inappropriate behavior by a photographer at least once a week, yet I've only actually seen maybe three that were backed up by corroborating evidence (news report, police report, etc...).

It works the same as the no-show model threads, unless you're going to name names and give the other person a chance to reply, it's all heresay.

Eric Foltz

Well, in my case Eric, you are welcome to read the police reports.  There were reports filed in two different jurisdictions since the studio and the hotel were in different cities.

Let's also not forget that we just had one of those last summer when Martin was arrested and convicted in AZ for inappropriate conduct with underage models at a group photo shoot.  Martin worked for Playboy in the studio, both as an assistant and as a photographer.

How about the porn model from Canada who was murdered last year down south by her photographer who decided it was better to kill her than to pay the fee?

By gosh, both of these did make the news, didn't they?  If you don't believe these things happen, then your head is in the sand.

Alan from Aavian Prod wrote:
Well, in my case Eric, you are welcome to read the police reports.  There were reports filed in two different jurisdictions since the studio and the hotel were in different cities.

Let's also not forget that we just had one of those last summer when Martin was arrested and convicted in AZ for inappropriate conduct with underage models at a group photo shoot. 

How about the porn model from Canda who was murdered last year down south by her photographer who decided it was better to kill her than to pay the fee?

If you don't believe these things happen, then your head is in the sand.

You're doing the same thing right now. Martin who? "porn model from Canada" = insert name, "photographer" = insert name, provide link to news story archive. Provide actual evidence beyond "I heard it on the forum".

No, my head isn't in the sand. There are plenty of scumbags out there with cameras/titles trying to take advantage of young naive wannabee models/actresses etc... Some of them fleece them for thousands in fees for images that will never get them a job, some sell them on classes that will be laughed at by the agencies, some still try and work the casting couch, some profess relationships with major publications, some profess that they are managers who can get them work. Report them or they will continue to operate.

My point is that unless you're going to name names or call the police. Coming to a forum to complain about the behavior of someone is utterly stupid and comes off as nothing more than someone looking for attention.

Eric Foltz

D. Brian Nelson wrote:
Keep that part in mind. If it is not through force or threat of force, it is NOT a crime.

It is a crime if you are a minor and the offender is over the age of 24.

Christie_Marie wrote:
It is a crime if you are a minor and the offender is over the age of 24.

Actually, here in PA it's less of a crime to actually have sex with a minor than it is to take suggestive photographs of them.  A here guy got caught taking nude photographs of  his 17 year old wife and almost ended up doing 5 to 15 on a kiddie-porn rap.  Age of consent laws are a funny thing.

Eric Foltz wrote:

You're doing the same thing right now. Martin who? "porn model from Canada" = insert name, "photographer" = insert name, provide link to news story archive. Provide actual evidence beyond "I heard it on the forum".

No, my head isn't in the sand. There are plenty of scumbags out there with cameras/titles trying to take advantage of young naive wannabee models/actresses etc... Some of them fleece them for thousands in fees for images that will never get them a job, some sell them on classes that will be laughed at by the agencies, some still try and work the casting couch, some profess relationships with major publications. Report them or they will continue to operate.

My point is that unless you're going to name names or call the police. Coming to a forum to complain about the behavior of someone is utterly stupid and comes off as nothing more than someone looking for attention.

Eric Foltz

Eric:

Read my lips, the police were called and you are welcome to read the reports.

The other two cases were all over the news. Don't you own a TV or read the newspaper? 

But enough said, you are entitled to your viewpoint.

Sascha wrote:
It has come to my attention that recently there has been a couple of disturbing incidents where a professional male photographer with great credits and portfolio has attempted to take sexual advantage of a budding young female model with great potential.

...respectfully snipped...

Good post Sascha. It shows you care a lot about both professions.

Alan from Aavian Prod wrote:

Eric:

Read my lips, the police were called and you are welcome to read the reports.

The other two cases were all over the news. Don't you own a TV or read the newspaper? 

But enough said, you are entitled to your viewpoint.

He was asking for a link or a last name that we can google just to see. Martin who? I've not heard of that case, but I have heard of others. I have seen several in the news as of late, no one associated with MM, BTW. We all know that it happens, the bad stuff.

All Eric is saying is that instead of starting a thread on a message board, that these models TAKE ACTION. File the appropriate charges and reports. Stop this from happening ever again. Telling us here, and not taking legal action, is not helping anyone.

I'd say no on the naming names here on MM at the moment.

sicilianbabe wrote:
There needs to be collaboration between models and photographers to expose them.

ang

This won`t happen. Especially from photographers. It seems photographers understand more than models that exposing leads to libel and slander lawsuits.

sicilianbabe wrote:
Interesting.  Let me see if I understand this - forgive my ignorance I am new to the industry.  I have testing scheduled with 4 photogs coming up.  I should be expected to be hit on by at least three.  So what happens if you say "sorry not interested"?

ang

Ang...

I have been shooting with photographers since I was 14. Granted my mother accompanied me during the early years as required, but the last four years I
have gone to shoots without her and most times without an assistant.  But I have
always behaved professionally, checked them out, checked references, & made sure that ALL the shoot project parameters were spelled out and agreed upon, before I accepted. And I have never been "hit on" or inappropriately touched, manhandled,
or propositioned...EVER!

I NEVER go to a shoot or job WONDERING or WORRYING that I might have to fight off
sexual, physical, or verbal aggression of ANY kind, because I would NOT do the project, regardless the photographer, the cache, or pay, if I had THAT thought/worry pop into my head.

And if I am NOT interested or do not feel the photographer/client has anything to offer to expand my book/rep, I simply refuse the shoot project...period. I try to always be polite, but to be honest, I do not worry what the potential photographer/client may think, say, or do if I refuse. It simply does not matter.

They WILL move on and so do I.

DawnElizabeth Moderator wrote:
All Eric is saying is that instead of starting a thread on a message board, that these models TAKE ACTION. File the appropriate charges and reports. Stop this from happening ever again. Telling us here, and not taking legal action, is not helping anyone.

Well that part I totally agree with.  I have seen it myself where models didn't speak up and another one was exposed to a bad situation.

I think models are sometimes either afraid to say no or to call the police when something has really happened.

I am not sure it is appropriate though to post full names publicly.  I have sent you the details of the cases by private message though and you can do with the information as you please.

Eric S. wrote:
PLEASE do not let these mutts intimidate you. If something happens on a shoot that feels inappropriate, chances are it IS inappropriate, and you should leave right away.
And from what I heard last week about a couple photographers/managers here in Florida, I would bring mace or pepperspray to photoshoots.

http://www.defensexpress.com/pepperspray.htm

Dont forget the stun guns...

http://www.safetygearhq.com/

Eric Foltz wrote:
Look, actual cases, documented and corroborated.

http://washingtontimes.com/metro/200601 … -5782r.htm

http://www.daijiworld.com/news/news_dis … d+for+Rape

http://dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1008535&CatID=1

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/glou … 988560.stm

http://www.local6.com/news/2460603/detail.html

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/ … 7996c.html


Eric Foltz

Ok, now I gotta look up news about models who pull this stuff on photographers. I know I had an incident where I was doing a nude shoot with a model who was on a prop bed. I was standing right by the bed during some shots where she was on her tummy facing the camera. I was looking through the view finder then suddently she wasn`t in it anymore. My brain sorta short circuited for a split second thinkin "hey whered she go?". The next thing I know I have a hand down in my pants and it was not mine. I learned from then on to not wear those PJ style pants that are very loose fitting to shoots!

Eric Foltz wrote:
Look, actual cases, documented and corroborated.

http://washingtontimes.com/metro/200601 … -5782r.htm

http://www.daijiworld.com/news/news_dis … d+for+Rape

http://dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1008535&CatID=1

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/glou … 988560.stm

http://www.local6.com/news/2460603/detail.html

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/ … 7996c.html


Eric Foltz

Go to Google and type "porn model from Canada murdered", it's really easy AND FUN!

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Northeast/03/24/body.found/

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/do … 318008.htm

Just because you've never heard of it, or seen it on the news yourself, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

BasementStudios wrote:
Go to Google and type "porn model from Canada murdered", it's really easy AND FUN!

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Northeast/03/24/body.found/

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/do … 318008.htm

Just because you've never heard of it, or seen it on the news yourself, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Yep, and that's how we separate the truth from the rumours and BS.

Eric Foltz

Eric Foltz wrote:

Yep, and that's how we separate the truth from the rumours and BS.

Eric Foltz

You're right, but the point is to take some initiative on your own to do the search and find out if it's true.  I seldom believe what I hear/read, ESPECIALLY on MM, but I do the looking on my own to find out if it's true.