Melvin Moten Jr wrote:

You called?

pick me!

sicilianbabe wrote:
Interesting.  Let me see if I understand this - forgive my ignorance I am new to the industry.  I have testing scheduled with 4 photogs coming up.  I should be expected to be hit on by at least three.  So what happens if you say "sorry not interested"?

ang

Hmm, I guess I'm that 1 in 4 that doesn't hit on the models.  And though I'm not nearly as talented as others, almost all of them come back to me for more photos.  I think I'm doing something right.

JC wrote:
Dawn why do you defend these guys ? You're just as much to blame as them. Yes I know who these guys are. Why don't I expose them ? Because unless we meet in a court of law or I am confronted by authorities, I will not publicly accuse them without giving them the chance to defend themselves.

Since you didn't quote what you are referring to, on what Dawn said to defend those guys... I am speculating what you were referring to.

I am with Dawn here, we can NOT name someone unless we have filed criminal charges that we can be provided.

Just as you explain it in your very own post here...

We had several cases where allegations of a model towards a photographer happens to be supported by submitting court orders, case numbers and even conversations with detectives on the case... and then we were able to take action.

But, just as you said, if someones name appears and is being publicly discussed, and nothing can be backed up, we are opening us up for some libel suits... and we don't need that.

We usually recommend that the models exchange the info in private messaging and to take action by filing complaints together to the authorities...

Hope I was on target with my response.

Regards;

UdoR
Moderator

JC wrote:
Dawn why do you defend these guys ? You're just as much to blame as them. Yes I know who these guys are. Why don't I expose them ? Because unless we meet in a court of law or I am confronted by authorities, I will not publicly accuse them without giving them the chance to defend themselves. 

Maybe you need to think about this a bit more Dawn. Some of these girls that these so called professionals have taken advantage of are not even 18 years old. Can you remember that far back Dawn ?  Can you remember how naive you were ? Can you remember how scared you were to go against the grain because you just didn't have the life experience as an older person ?  Think Dawn, think.
-- Jason

My god, you make Dawn sound like she's in her 60's....well, is she?

JC wrote:
Dawn why do you defend these guys ? You're just as much to blame as them. Yes I know who these guys are. Why don't I expose them ? Because unless we meet in a court of law or I am confronted by authorities, I will not publicly accuse them without giving them the chance to defend themselves. 

Maybe you need to think about this a bit more Dawn. Some of these girls that these so called professionals have taken advantage of are not even 18 years old. Can you remember that far back Dawn ?  Can you remember how naive you were ? Can you remember how scared you were to go against the grain because you just didn't have the life experience as an older person ?  Think Dawn, think.
-- Jason

Appeals to emotion followed by requests to "think" are not rational.
Neither do I see where she's defended "these guys" (what guys? no names have been disclosed) or where she's condoned the behavior...nevermind that she's acting as a mod.

I'm sure an experienced model with a daughter would have much more emotional weight on this issue than you if she wanted to not "think" clearly about it.

JC wrote:
Dawn why do you defend these guys ? You're just as much to blame as them. Yes I know who these guys are. Why don't I expose them ? Because unless we meet in a court of law or I am confronted by authorities, I will not publicly accuse them without giving them the chance to defend themselves. 

Maybe you need to think about this a bit more Dawn. Some of these girls that these so called professionals have taken advantage of are not even 18 years old. Can you remember that far back Dawn ?  Can you remember how naive you were ? Can you remember how scared you were to go against the grain because you just didn't have the life experience as an older person ?  Think Dawn, think.
-- Jason

Wait a minute. Let me see if I've got this straight.

Dawn advises the girls to turn the bums in to the authorities and she is defending them,

and...

You on the other hand claim to "know who these guys are" yet have not reported them to the authorities (essentially making you an accessory after the fact if they have committed a crime).

And she is just as much to blame as them?

Please explain your logic in this.

Eric Foltz

Eric Foltz wrote:

Wait a minute. Let me see if I've got this straight.

Dawn advises the girls to turn the bums in to the authorities and she is defending them,

and...

You on the other hand claim to "know who these guys are" yet have not reported them to the authorities (essentially making you an accessory after the fact if they have committed a crime).

And she is just as much to blame as them?

Please explain your logic in this.

Eric Foltz

Plus I want to know if Dawn is really a 60 year old....

UdoR wrote:

JC wrote:
But, just as you said, if someones name appears and is being publicly discussed, and nothing can be backed up, we are opening us up for some libel suits... and we don't need that.

UdoR
Moderator

Wiser words were never spoken!

Christie_Marie wrote:

It is a crime if you are a minor and the offender is over the age of 24.

OK, I agree.  I don't work with minors and hadn't thought to include the caveat. 

-Don

Sascha wrote:
It has come to my attention that recently there has been a couple of disturbing incidents where a professional male photographer with great credits and portfolio has attempted to take sexual advantage of a budding young female model with great potential.

I know that this is nothing new in our industry but everytime I hear something like this, it angers me as a model and, as a woman.  It is further disturbing that such incidents are often hushed or foregone in favor of those who have more power in the politics of the fashion industry, when in other industries harrassment and rape are not commonly ignored.  This is not even about a GWC with some clueless airheaded wannabe model... this is about real working photographers and real newfaces represented/about to get signed by top agencies... gorgeous tall girls with promising future.

I personally find such working professionals with no ethics or moral more hazardous to this industry than GWCs.  I've seen many complaints on this forum about shady or perverted GWCs, however, IMO it is also the model's fault not to be able to see the often-obvious difference between a professional photographer's portfolio and that of a GWC's prior to working with them. 

But unfortunately there ARE "professional" photographers in this business with fantastic talent that seem to lack the professionalism that should come along with their remarkable portfolio & credits... not to even mention how they give bad name to the photographer's community but this is a CRIME that seems to continue to happen way too often.  It doesn't matter if the model is a minor or above 18, straight or gay, male or female... OR if the involved parties are in a totally different market other than modeling...if it's forced, it's a crime. 

I want to send my support to those fellow models that became victims of such injustice, and hope that they keep their heads high and succeed in their careers as they trully deserve.

This behavior by ANY photographer, is angering to some of us "male photographers" as well as the models. On one level, I wish these men would encounter some cute young thing that also happened to have a black belt in one of the Martial Arts, who could emplant that professional camera someplace the manufacturer never thought of.

I'm offended by the behavior of these men. I'm angered by their antics, and the attitude they bring into this photographic world towards women.

I feel good about having empowered models, who aren't intimidated and have the self-confidence to say "No!" (Then again, I don't have that "abusing others" mindset.) I encourage models I work with to come to the meeting and/or photoshoot with accompanyment.

It's equally offending about some of the attitudes that if the young female model DOES push for charges against the photographer, that it is often her future reputation as a "troublemaker" that carries on. This is even more wrong that the photographers who believe rape is acceptable. That this industry/world sees it as OK for men to overpower women as long as they are stong and effective image makers.

Rape and abuse are just what they are: crimes WITH victims. "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time." If they have bad intentions in their minds, then get them the f*ck out of here, and make life for the rest of us decent, honest individuals just a little bit easier.

Richard Beebe
N California

sicilianbabe wrote:
Interesting.  Let me see if I understand this - forgive my ignorance I am new to the industry.  I have testing scheduled with 4 photogs coming up.  I should be expected to be hit on by at least three.  So what happens if you say "sorry not interested"?

ang

Tell them you will have accompanyment at the shoot. If they say "no," then don't do the shoot: they don't have your comfort level in mind.

Go in their with enough self confidence to be able to say "sorry not interested" and mean it. Feel good about yourself, and empowered so as NOT to be intimidated by all this fancy and expensive-looking equipment.

If he doesn't get the hint, get up and leave. If that little voice starts trying to warn you that things aren't right, then stop and get the hell OUT!

UdoR wrote:
I am just wondering if that would work.

"Dear photographer, I appreciate that you would like to work with me. Hey, I am honored and excited that you want to work with me.

However, I have a concern, because I heard some stories, that you have a certain reputation of being too friendly with the models you work with, and I am really not up to it.

I don't know if those stories are true, but I want to avoid any rumors... and just want to make sure that we are just talking about creating some really outstanding photos.

Is that okay with you??"

Well, the photographer may freak out and becoming all upset and defensive... this may also not the most elegant way to express yourself... just jotted down a quick thought...

But, in the end... if you shoot, the photographer KNOWS to be more carefull, at least with you and you end up with phantastic pictures.

Just a thought...

Udo

Oh, this makes things way too simple. Ask up front and in the open? Being blunt and direct? Going for the clear understanding?

Just think of the stories this could prevent from ever happening?!

Richard, California

sicilianbabe wrote:
Interesting.  Let me see if I understand this - forgive my ignorance I am new to the industry.  I have testing scheduled with 4 photogs coming up.  I should be expected to be hit on by at least three.  So what happens if you say "sorry not interested"?

ang

I would be the one, I guess.

I'm quite happily married, even after 30 years together. I don't get "down and confused" (as in Stephen Stills' old tune *if you can't be with the one you love, then* "Love the one you're with") about women. You don't interest me AT ALL as a fling, encounter, affair, girlfriend, sexual plaything, or any other possible variation on this theme.

I don't know if I can more clearly state this attitude for myself to any prospective models.

KM von Seidl wrote:
If there was a crime, then do something about it.  Why is this an issue?   If a model makes it a habit to lift photographers' gear while on shoots, then prosecute.   If a photographer is forcing himself on a model, there are criminal actions that have been taken, go to the authorities.  Real authorities not Model Mayhem.  Why bother with internet chatroom drama?

Whether a photographer, or a model for that matter, calls themselves a professional or not doesn't necessarily mean that they have ethics.  Sick people are sick people.  They exist everywhere.

But I disagree with the idea that just because it can't be proven right here and now, or is an uncomfortable topic that it shouldn't be discussed on the boards.

The best way to stop something like this from happening is by making people aware that it does happen, and arm them with the proper way to handle the situation.  Ignorance isn't always bliss, it is often dangerous.  There doesn't have to be threats or force for sexual advances to be illegal.  If someone makes an advance and the person on the receieving end says they are not interested, then any further action becomes a crime.  It's harrassment and the word "unprofessional" doesn't begin to encompass how wrong it is.  Everyone has a right to be safe and respected; models and photographers alike. 

As a photographer I always invite my models to bring someone along, and as a model I always brought one.  No one should have to give up thier rights to have a photo shoot.

I personally think this topic was a very good idea, and could stand more perusal.

sicilianbabe wrote:
I think other professional photographers know who the "unprofessional" scums are also and stay silent.  There needs to be collaboration between models and photographers to expose them.

ang

smart young chiK

Sascha wrote:
It has come to my attention that recently there has been a couple of disturbing incidents where a professional male photographer with great credits and portfolio has attempted to take sexual advantage of a budding young female model with great potential.

What a pile of bloody rubbish. There's no need to get past first sentence of this thread to see how ridiculous this is:

"It has come to my attention...:

What else do I need to say?What a great way to spread rumors and lies fuelled by attention whores. This complex of internet models seeking attention which they're not getting as much of as they would wish is sickening. Come up with something more original, we've heard this story many a time. It's only sad to see some people still fall for it and play your game regardless. Friggin attention whores...

Glamour Boulevard wrote:
There are a couple of things one could say about your header/post. 1 being "your header is an oxymoron", the other being "we all have ethics, they just might not be the same as yours".

And what about the models who do that to photographers?

Never said that was impossible.  It's just that there's a tendency that photographers taking advantage of models happen more often than vice versa. 

Yes the header is an oxymoron because it was intended to make readers think.  The term "Professional" can be defined both as someone that makes a full-time career out of somethine and as someone with professionalism. 

And no, if anyone has the mentality that it is ethically correct or acceptable to sexually assault or take advantage of someone else, I do not think every person on this planet has ethics... or morals, should I say.

Richard Beebe wrote:
It's equally offending about some of the attitudes that if the young female model DOES push for charges against the photographer, that it is often her future reputation as a "troublemaker" that carries on. This is even more wrong that the photographers who believe rape is acceptable. That this industry/world sees it as OK for men to overpower women as long as they are stong and effective image makers.

Rape and abuse are just what they are: crimes WITH victims. "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time." If they have bad intentions in their minds, then get them the f*ck out of here, and make life for the rest of us decent, honest individuals just a little bit easier.

Richard Beebe
N California

I wholeheartedly agree with you.  Thank you for your post!

Eric Foltz wrote:

Wait a minute. Let me see if I've got this straight.

Dawn advises the girls to turn the bums in to the authorities and she is defending them,

and...

You on the other hand claim to "know who these guys are" yet have not reported them to the authorities (essentially making you an accessory after the fact if they have committed a crime).

And she is just as much to blame as them?

Please explain your logic in this.

Eric Foltz

JC is referring to the actual 2 incidents I am referring to, and the moderators' response towards them.  I can see why it might be hard to follow his post as names are not mentioned, however, for obvious reasons JC & I both choose not to post names of the victims and the criminals for privacy & professional reasons until the victims are in the mental state to take any legal action AND have the funds to take such action. 

Unfortunately, most young models that are just starting in the industry do not have the financial capability to make a big lawsuit out of such cases... some are not from USA, and some flew into US for their dreams all on their own.

Ched wrote:
This is not recent, this is the history of the industry you're talking about.

Yes, unfortunately... hence "this is nothing new" in my OP

Sascha wrote:
Unfortunately, most young models that are just starting in the industry do not have the financial capability to make a big lawsuit out of such cases... some are not from USA, and some flew into US for their dreams all on their own.

Last I checked, the District Attorney in L.A. County and every other county in this country prosecute all criminal cases free of charge. Your tax money pays for the lawsuit. All you have to do is report the crime to the police and they'll take it from there.

If you are talking a civil case, some lawyers, if you actually have a case, work for a percentage of the settlement. If they don't think you have a case, they don't accept the assignment.

Eric Foltz

Dawn Allynn Photography wrote:
Whether a photographer, or a model for that matter, calls themselves a professional or not doesn't necessarily mean that they have ethics.  Sick people are sick people.  They exist everywhere.

But I disagree with the idea that just because it can't be proven right here and now, or is an uncomfortable topic that it shouldn't be discussed on the boards.

The best way to stop something like this from happening is by making people aware that it does happen, and arm them with the proper way to handle the situation.  Ignorance isn't always bliss, it is often dangerous.  There doesn't have to be threats or force for sexual advances to be illegal.  If someone makes an advance and the person on the receieving end says they are not interested, then any further action becomes a crime.  It's harrassment and the word "unprofessional" doesn't begin to encompass how wrong it is.  Everyone has a right to be safe and respected; models and photographers alike. 

As a photographer I always invite my models to bring someone along, and as a model I always brought one.  No one should have to give up thier rights to have a photo shoot.

I personally think this topic was a very good idea, and could stand more perusal.

If your house is on fire you can sit around and chat about the color of the flames, how hot the temperature is, how good your bedroom set is smelling as it's burning....   or you can call the fire department to put out the fire.

Awareness of a problem is certainly important.  That's the idea behind teaching youth about safe sex, empowering children about good touch vs. bad touch, etc etc etc.

But at some point, flapping ones jaws becomes simply drama.  My point is that if someone was the victim of a crime (as was suggested by the OP use of words rape, force, and crime, etc), then rather than waste one's time sharing an "awareness" of it, you do something about it.  You prosecute.  Prosecution is a criminal matter, you don't need to raise money for it.  You just need to be able to present facts that support your assertion.  Prosecuting and convicting perpetrators is what works.

Now, if there are not facts supporting a crime (then one has to wonder why the post talked about force, rape, crime), then what you really have is a discussion about unprofessional behaviour and power dynamics, typically of men over women, higher status "celeb" photographer vs. lower status virtually unknown model.  And this sort of discussion of people using their power to take advantage of those with less,  unfortunately isn't singular to the photography field, it exists everywhere.

What isn't clear in the OP's post is what she's really talking about.  A real crime which implies ethical violations as well or ethical violations with no crime but lots of moral indignation with sloppy word usage.   To confuse the two is problematic.   To continue any "awareness" discussion without clarification doesn't really aid in awareness at all because no one is on the same page of the book.

Eric Foltz wrote:

Last I checked, the District Attorney in L.A. County and every other county in this country prosecute all criminal cases free of charge. Your tax money pays for the lawsuit. All you have to do is report the crime to the police and they'll take it from there.

If you are talking a civil case, some lawyers, if you actually have a case, work for a percentage of the settlement. If they don't think you have a case, they don't accept the assignment.

Eric Foltz

Do you know if this covers foreigners & non-US citizens as well?  If so, this is actually a very helpful information that I'd like to forward to one of the victims.

Steven Bigler wrote:
Sascha... and all the replies... you are all farting into the wind on this.  Police hit on girls they pull over, priests screw little boys, models screw photographers for jobs... then yell foul later, actors, airline pilots, politicians, grocery store managers... it is human nature.

People flirt, some are overt, some others misinterpret, and some are actually violated.
The high and mighty need not lecture on the "professional ethics and morals" of working professionals... as in reality the biggest and most successful working pros... are not.
Tend to your own house.

Avoid situations that make you uncomfortable, leave if something gets hanky, and report officially all crimes that actually occur.  Crying wolf is simply farting upwind.

Steven, I like you a lot and you have all my respects as a photographer... however just because this happens outside of the modeling industry, it doesn't mean it shouldn't be brought up.  I wasn't trying to lecture on professional ethics and morals... I find much of that common sense.

Sascha wrote:
Do you know if this covers foreigners & non-US citizens as well?  If so, this is actually a very helpful information that I'd like to forward to one of the victims.

Of course it applies to foreigners. It applies to any crime committed within the jurisdiction of U.S. Law. The citizenship of the victim is irrelevant if a crime has been committed.

Eric Foltz

MarkMarek wrote:

What a pile of bloody rubbish. There's no need to get past first sentence of this thread to see how ridiculous this is:

"It has come to my attention...:

What else do I need to say?What a great way to spread rumors and lies fuelled by attention whores. This complex of internet models seeking attention which they're not getting as much of as they would wish is sickening. Come up with something more original, we've heard this story many a time. It's only sad to see some people still fall for it and play your game regardless. Friggin attention whores...

Wow, thank you so much Mark, this post definitely shows your character.

Steven Bigler wrote:
Better photographers are not the nicest people per se... they are just better photographers!

This I agree hehe : P... but whether or not we are talking about photographers, being mean and being a criminal is totally different... you DO agree with that, right?

Melvin Moten Jr wrote:
I'm always amused when I read these posts, because none of the GWCs, pervs and pornographers that I count myself among ever indulge in this kind of behavior...you have to hook up with an agency and work with established pro photographers to get properly molested, it seems.

I was thinking and have said numerous times the exact same thing. Oh but I have heard of the people in adult who set up "Agencies" or other forms of representation and engage in the casting couch activities. But these people are quickly outed by those who are REALLY in the industry as a business NOT as a way to get jollies.

Miss Anthropy wrote:
I think that to understand the impetus behind not coming forward with an attack, assault, inappropriate conduct or what have you...in ANY context, you have to understand that to a large degree, females are socialised to not make a fuss. If the thing was truly traumatic it makes emotional sense to the victim to deal with it on thier own, not to generate a fuss or to relive it constantly or run the risk of not being believed. A good number of rapes and sexual assaults never get reported to the authorities for these and other reasons. Is it right to let it slide, of course not, but the lack of a police report doesn't make something any less true.

I agree... and as another poster mentioned, often times taking legal actions as a model often involves a risk of the industry turning a cold-eye on her as a trouble maker, thus hurting her career/dreams.

DawnElizabeth Moderator wrote:
But it's also in the interpretation. I had a bad experience with a photographer and I offered my advice to another model. SHe worked with him anyway and she had a better experience. Apparently, it was just me.

That was redundant.

Do you mean that if a photographers disrespect or abuse you could be your fault?
Or the guy who abused you might be OK if he did not abuse the next model?