Posted by LarryB: 
This may not be completely relevant, but I thought it was a good example.  Somebody once told me you don't really need any training for self defense, you just need to be motivated.

His example was the average housecat.  You can pick up a kitty and pet it and make it purr and everything is fine.  Take the same cat outside, and try to put it in the mailbox.  The cat will mess you up badly before you ever get it inside the box.  What does a cat weigh, 12 lbs?  All the cat has to do is make your life miserable enough that putting it in the mailbox just isn't worth the pain.  He said you just have to be like that cat.

An overly simplistic example, but I liked it just for the visual.

Another good one was a story I read about an elderly lady who woke up to find a nekkid guy standing next to her bed.  He informed her she was going to perform orally on him.  She responded by grabbing his twig in one hand and his berries in another and twisting in opposite directions.  He howled that she was kiling him.  She told him he ought to just go ahead and die then.  Damn funny story, IMHO.

OK, kind of a tangent.  Sorry.  Back to your regular discussion.  ;-)

(IF there was a point I'd say that training isn't as valuable as a willingness to inflict pain on somebody who is trying to hurt you.  If you read stories about people who have been victimized it's surprising how passive some people are.)

This would be nice but we are not cave man anymore..
People do not have what it takes to protect them without training in this day and age..
We have become very weak as a people..
While the bad people get stronger..
Be smart and try to learn and get stronger!!

Posted by Hugh  Jorgen ©: 

Since then i have lost 7 girlfriends to crazy Murderers!!

You have GOT to start hanging out in a better part of town.  So a total of 8 women you've dated have been murdered?  Has the FBI talked to you yet?  I've had some bad luck, but WOW.

Posted by John Swoger:

I wish they would offer self defense courses to young gals while in school, along with the other lessons on how to avoid being a vitim.

I think I was lucky, John, but I went to schools that taught us all some basics.  (Boys need this stuff too!)  It should definitely be more common, I agree.

Posted by Select Models: 
Hey Shyly...

This topic of 'chaperones and escorts' is something that we have addressed in the 'credits' section of our MM page.  It may not be for everyone, but it's an option that MANY models (expecially those in SoCal) have chosen to exercise... check it out!

That looks like it’s working really well for y’all.  Great idea!  I’ve heard about similar events up here, but haven’t attended one yet.  I hadn’t thought about it from a safety perspective, but that does indeed make a lot of sense.

Posted by Jarod: 
I think one thing a model could do if she isn't planning on bringing an escort is to get the specific time/location of the shoot and tell friends/family of her whereabouts and when to expect her to be home.  The model then has to make sure that the shoot time/location doesn't change. If it does she needs to inform people of the change.

I absolutely agree, Jarod, and would venture to say this is a habit that would be good for most models to get into.  (In fact, this is a good reminder that I need to be more painstaking about doing so.  Thank you!)

Posted by LarryB: 
All the cat has to do is make your life miserable enough that putting it in the mailbox just isn't worth the pain.  He said you just have to be like that cat.

(IF there was a point I'd say that training isn't as valuable as a willingness to inflict pain on somebody who is trying to hurt you.  If you read stories about people who have been victimized it's surprising how passive some people are.)

Larry, I absolutely agree with what you said.  There’s a lot of passivity out there, particularly in people who’ve been trained to see themselves as victims, or who expect to be victimized.  Some kind of training is just as important on that psychological level as it is on any kind of physical level.  Thank you for bringing that up, it’s spot on!  Most predators are looking for easy prey.  Make things difficult, and the odds are good that they’ll give up.

Posted by Reese: 
Well... when I modeled I never brought an escort with me...  I do have to admit though that I date a personal trainer/martial arts specialist (for the last three years)...  I also studied self defense for a while...

I also have to agree with Larry... "Motivation" is key...  and my cat has kicked my @$$ many a time, as has my vicious little Pembrooke Welsh Corgi.   

I’ve got a little fluffball that rules the roost, too.  She’s nothing but attitude, but the 75lb dog is (rightly) terrified of her.

Posted by Hugh  Jorgen ©: 

This would be nice but we are not cave man anymore..

OK, I thought my post was a little irrelevant, but you win.  Here's your trophy.

Posted by Reese: 

I've got an 80lb pitt bull - he tore up my corgi up pretty bad :::sniff:::  $3000.00 worth of medical bills... (Broke his leg once, and then mauled him almost to death - now we keep them seperated)

heh heh heh... Could you imagine a photographer's face if a model pranced in with an 80lb (pure muscle) pitt bull as an escort?   

Oh, man, that's so sad!  Poor little Corgi.

Posted by Shyly: 
Some kind of training is just as important on that psychological level as it is on any kind of physical level. 

My point exactly.  Traning is great, as it builds self confidence as well as familiarity with your weapon of choice (being martial arts, guns, mace, batons, dogs, whatever).  It's amazing to me how many people are not willing to fight to survive.  You can have all the training you want, but you'll still have to cross the mental bridge where you can look somebody right in the eye and cause them extreme pain or mortal wounds without hesitation.

BTW, Reese has a corgi?  I love those little dogs!  Small dog with a big dog bark!

Posted by LarryB: 

Posted by Shyly: 
Some kind of training is just as important on that psychological level as it is on any kind of physical level. 

My point exactly.  Traning is great, as it builds self confidence as well as familiarity with your weapon of choice (being martial arts, guns, mace, batons, dogs, whatever).  It's amazing to me how many people are not willing to fight to survive.  You can have all the training you want, but you'll still have to cross the mental bridge where you can look somebody right in the eye and cause them extreme pain or mortal wounds without hesitation.

BTW, Reese has a corgi?  I love those little dogs!  Small dog with a big dog bark!

Yes, I do... He's so darn cute....  I love him... he's tri-colored...  Cute as can be and gets along well with my other pets...  (except the dang pitt bull).  His name is "Charlie." (AKC is Sir Charles Ferdinand MCGillicutty) The pitt bull is named "Diesel." Then I have cats... and fish... and aquatic dwarf frogs... and a mouse...

Posted by Justin: 

As stated in another thread - where does it stop? If a model brings her chap ... errr, personal assistant, who's to say they're not trying to set me up for a mugging or phony charges for some half-assed blackmail scheme?  Do I bring my own ... um... personal assistant?

Great post, Justin!  (I abbreviated the quoting to save space, but I agreed with you.)  I've actually been wondering just this very thing.  I'm going to be learning some photography, and though for awhile I'll be shooting friends and family I wrangle into holding still, I imagine eventually I'll want to get someone I don't know in front of my camera.  The idea of big hulking paranoid boyfriends escorting people makes *me* nervous in that context!

I'm getting diverted, though, that deserves its own thread.

Anyway, I agree with you.  I'm not sure why my post made you grumpy, but I'm sorry it did.  Hooray for common sense!

Posted by LarryB: 
(IF there was a point I'd say that training isn't as valuable as a willingness to inflict pain on somebody who is trying to hurt you.  If you read stories about people who have been victimized it's surprising how passive some people are.)

I hope that situation has changed for the better in the last 20 years. With hollywood putting out more movies featuring women as strong and able bodied, educated and agile heroines, it damn well better.

Fathers of girls can help change it for the better too. I have 3 girls, 20, 15 and 10. Try hard as I might, I've taught them to rely on their instincts and be able to recognize physical aggression against them, strike first and strike hard, get the hell out of dodge and call the cops. ...with an emphasis on not to run screaming and psychotic like the women they see in movies depicting women as weaklings.

I kinda take offense to seeing that in flicks knowing that my Mom fended off Japanese soldiers from shooting my Dad whom they mistook for an American G.I., assisted American soldiers along with other bands of Filipino rebels and the fact she handled herself as a School Teacher in San Francisco's Hunter's Point back in the day when it was a very violent, drug ridden neighborhood.

That's why I'm not too keen on images showing women tied up, even though I recognize that it's an art form and I try to respect the Artist's vision. There is some glory when a strong woman can show her vulnerabilities, but only when we're talking about love relationships. Not photo shoots with a mentally unstable photographer.

Models reading this, if you want to learn self defense I'd recommend learning several. All you need is the basics from each style and maybe a couple of experiences competing in tournaments.

Here's some guidelines for those who have never gotten into a physical fight:

- Learn how to punch, counter-punch, keep a stable stance while you're punching, how to use your hips as the main thrust behind your punches, while being agile on your feet. Take some boxing lessons.

- Learn how to throw, fall down and flip someone heavier than you. Take Judo, or Jujitsu.

- Learn how to kick, where to kick, while making your feet and legs strong. Take Tae-Kwon-Do or Kajukenbo.

- Learn how to block, how to fight in close quarters and strengthen your arms and fists at the same. Take Wing-Chun

- Lastly, if you become interested in the beauty and history of the fighting forms, take Kung-Fu. Choy-Li-Fut, Wu-Shu, Pa-Kua, etc.

I don't believe in those schools who offer multiple disciplines in the same package. You want to learn from each school from a Sensei, Sifu, or Coach who spent their entire time specializing in a particular fighting style.

If you can't afford to try all those schools, hook up with your city's local P.A.L. (Police Activities League) and at least learn some boxing. Be prepared for the cardio workout of your life, but you'll have fun, because there are people of all ages, mostly kids trying out for it to compete, or just have fun, staying in shape and learning how to box. For women, the kids have shown eagerness to pitch in and share enough knowledge to get you going in the right direction. It's kinda like showing off, but they're just excited and eager to show you what they know.

The single most important thing to learn is physical contact in some kind of competitive combat, which is why I mentioned tournaments. It's something that your mind has to become acquainted with and will make you learn about yourself and how you react to physical aggression. That is very key.

Posted by Hugh  Jorgen ©: 
I have been teaching Martial-arts since 1970...

You know Hugh, what if someone who is doing martial arts as long as us (I didn't teach until later, but I am a martial artist since 1972) is turning psycho?

What kind of "protection" should a girl take along because she can never know... if we advertise that we are practitioners of martial arts for 30 plus years... does a girl has to bring a SWAT team along to be safe?

Or, should we make special arrangements with the local precinct to use one of their interrogation rooms as a photostudio so that the girl feels safe from us?

The question is if I really want to shoot a girl that is AFRAID I will attack her?

I prefer the "go see" appointment before a shoot anyway at some cafe in the city, because I always like to see and meet the model anyway.

But I also don't have a problem with someone being there as long as it's not disruptive of the shoot.

I also think that the discussion is already at a point where it's beating a dead horse.

Feels almost like debating with 16 years old girls on MySpace about the usefulness of Barbizon...

Posted by Udo R Photography: 

I prefer the "go see" appointment before a shoot anyway at some cafe in the city, because I always like to see and meet the model anyway.

I agree, and that's something I usually do.

I also think that the discussion is already at a point where it's beating a dead horse.

I (obviously) disagree.  This isn't ye olde chaperone question.  That's the whole point.  It seems my communication skills need some work!

Posted by Udo R Photography: 

Posted by Hugh  Jorgen ©: 
I have been teaching Martial-arts since 1970...

You know Hugh, what if someone who is doing martial arts as long as us (I didn't teach until later, but I am a martial artist since 1972) is turning psycho?

Hi Udo. Sorry. I know you were asking Hugh, but I couldn't resist chiming in. In this case, when confronted with a psycho, one is now in the realm of the "mental". No amount of training can deter a psycho who is determined to harm you. Psychos are unpredictable in their actions and can catch anyone off guard in a split second. That's because we don't have eyes on the back of our heads. I would say, if one is in that situation and has the opportunity, fight fire with better fire and prove yourself capable of being more psycho than the psycho. In other words, turn the tables around and scare the shit out the psycho.

Posted by LarryB: 
This may not be completely relevant, but I thought it was a good example.  Somebody once told me you don't really need any training for self defense, you just need to be motivated.

The cat example is different... a cat is a natural predator that kills its prey with razorsharp claws that is retracted when in a tame situation.

A regular street thug who is "motivated" as well can overpower a woman pretty fast if she has no clue about self defense, outweighs her and has no barrier to keep agression in check.

A woman is better off to scream "FIRE!" than "help", because people don't want to get into other peoples business... but are willing to help if there is a fire...

Anyway... many of those self defense classes are useless crap and no more efficient than a TaeBo class at the local gym.

The danger is that those classes often give the woman a false sense of security that can pan out VERY dangerous to her life and well being.

Self defense is a skill that has to be learned from a real expert and practised... practised... and practised.

It's equally important and faster to implement to learn avoidance of such situations.

How many people you know that are constantly being attacked... or in brawls... where some other people never have such altercations... and both may live in the same neighborhood.

But that is more of an off topic rant by now...

Posted by Leila: 
Being 5'1 and physically disabled there would be no way for me to protect myself if someone really wanted to harm me. Thats why when I work with someone for the first time I bring my friend with me, who happens to be a rather large guy. He has also done some modeling so he knows how things work. If a photographer has a problem with it than I explain my situation and if he/she still says I cannot bring him then goodbye and have a nice life.

As a photographer I always encourage models to bring someone with them if it makes them feel more comfortable/safe.  If they have some skills that are useful, so much the better.  I might put them to work, or I might ask them to bring a book and sit in the shade out of the way.  I do have requirements that this person MUST follow: 

First and foremost, they MUST be quiet and stay out of the way.  I will not put up with chaperones who disrupt the shoot.

Second, they must be courteous and professional, as their actions reflect on you.

Posted by Shyly: 

Anyway, I agree with you.  I'm not sure why my post made you grumpy, but I'm sorry it did.  Hooray for common sense!

Oh, no, Shyly, it wasn't your post. Your post was fine, and I do think this is a valid discussion. Whether or not it's been heard before, there are still new people coming on board. 

What got me discouraged is the whole level of distrust that, if equally valid everywhere, would invalidate the great experiences I've had shooting. I guess I have to be glad that most of the models I've worked with don't read the forums and have "hulking psycho" in mind when they meet me (or at least, they didn't act that way).

Posted by Cyndiemyst: 
No matter your training ALWAYS bring an escort...
There have been situations where you can be left vulnerable...and training will not help you.
I have extensive Martial Arts training and there is no way I attend a shoot without an escort.

You know... I am wondering what exactly you expect to be protected from?

A psycho that pretends to be a photographer and lures models in to drug, rape and then eat them will follow his plan and will have a back up for any chaperone/escort that shows up and will have his brain pickled in a lunchbox.

I believe that the real problem and constant fear is being fueled by the media's sensationalist reporting of the dangers around us...

"New studies shows that 1 in 5 people have a mental disorder... be careful, one of your neighbors maybe a potential serial killer! More about this...tomorrow at the 5 o'clock News"

No wonder that everybody "heard of" somebody "close" to whom "something bad" happened while doing "something normal"...

Again... I am okay with anybody that comes along, I say that all along... but that phenomenon goes so well with our daily headlines that is being fed to us.

We are better controlable if we are afraid.

Posted by RFAphoto: 
I also agree with Hugh on the benefits of training, the self confidence and alert levels gained do have a certain "Deterrent Effect". My wife takes Aikido, and I'm pretty impressed with it, it doesn't require great amounts of strength, and is a defensive art with a graduated response philosophy. 

I also have to note, no matter how much training you have (and having SOME is always a good idea) you have to have the will to use it.  I took one or two self defense courses myself, and I will not hesitate to use it to protect myself or the models whom I am working with. (I consider myself responsible for their safety during the shoot) 

I had a guy in my college dorm who kept bragging about his self defense training, but when push came to shove he didn't have the courage or motivation to use it.  The one time he tried to start a fight with me I kicked his ass.

Posted by Joe K. Perez: 

Posted by Udo R Photography: 

Posted by Hugh  Jorgen ©: 
I have been teaching Martial-arts since 1970...

You know Hugh, what if someone who is doing martial arts as long as us (I didn't teach until later, but I am a martial artist since 1972) is turning psycho?

Hi Udo. Sorry. I know you were asking Hugh, but I couldn't resist chiming in. In this case, when confronted with a psycho, one is now in the realm of the "mental". No amount of training can deter a psycho who is determined to harm you. Psychos are unpredictable in their actions and can catch anyone off guard in a split second. That's because we don't have eyes on the back of our heads. I would say, if one is in that situation and has the opportunity, fight fire with better fire and prove yourself capable of being more psycho than the psycho. In other words, turn the tables around and scare the shit out the psycho.

EXACTLY! Now... what else if not immediate danger warrants a bodyguard at a photoshoot?

If I really want to hurt somebody, I would... I take out the bodyguard/chaperone and hurt the model faster than the recycle time on a standard flash system.

I am a full contact martial artist, used to be a competitor and coach and I warm up with partial reps of over 300lbs in bench press to do a static hold of 600 lbs...

Regardless... every model that works with me feels totally safe with me and all have a great time working with me (just look at my profile tags from people that have met me.)

As I wrote in that earlier post... it's all a fear, created by our media... and I am not talking as a conspiracy theorist.

I mean... what is really the fear that a model has when she is going to a photoshoot?

Posted by Udo R Photography: 

Posted by Cyndiemyst: 
No matter your training ALWAYS bring an escort...
There have been situations where you can be left vulnerable...and training will not help you.
I have extensive Martial Arts training and there is no way I attend a shoot without an escort.

You know... I am wondering what exactly you expect to be protected from?

A psycho that pretends to be a photographer and lures models in to drug, rape and then eat them will follow his plan and will have a back up for any chaperone/escort that shows up and will have his brain pickled in a lunchbox.

I believe that the real problem and constant fear is being fueled by the media's sensationalist reporting of the dangers around us...

"New studies shows that 1 in 5 people have a mental disorder... be careful, one of your neighbors maybe a potential serial killer! More about this...tomorrow at the 5 o'clock News"

No wonder that everybody "heard of" somebody "close" to whom "something bad" happened while doing "something normal"...

Again... I am okay with anybody that comes along, I say that all along... but that phenomenon goes so well with our daily headlines that is being fed to us.

We are better controlable if we are afraid.

I honestly don't think that most models are as worried about us doing something unprofessional than they are about their safety while they are intransit to and from the shoot. 

I think having a companion along on a long trip is ALWAYS a good thing to have.  Bad things can and do happen out there, and to ignore potential danger can invite trouble. 

It isn't always about trusting us to be professional, or legitimate as photographers.  Sometimes it's about the guy in the next seat on the train, or in the car behind them.

Posted by Udo R Photography: 
A psycho that pretends to be a photographer and lures models in to drug, rape and then eat them will follow his plan and will have a back up for any chaperone/escort that shows up and will have his brain pickled in a lunchbox.

LMAO. Udo...I like ya man. If I ever graduate to being a movie director, you're automatically one of my script writers.

I believe that the real problem and constant fear is being fueled by the media's sensationalist reporting of the dangers around us...

Like the forums, Movie script writers are doing the same ole material with different twists and more special effects. With the advent of the Internet, news agencies were forced to start exposing more and more of the bad stuff in order to maintain their ratings. What was there before, which most of us never knew, is now in our faces.

"New studies shows that 1 in 5 people have a mental disorder... be careful, one of your neighbors maybe a potential serial killer! More about this...tomorrow at the 5 o'clock News"

Sure fire way to kill that comfy neighborhood feeling. One day, instead of a neighbor asking for a cup of sugar, they might ask for a cup of bullets. No doubt in some circles, neighborhood students asking to borrow a cup of date rape drugs. Sheesh.

We are better controlable if we are afraid.

Lol. Now, you're being a conspiracist, because there's no Government or Media gain in being able to control the Photographer/Modeling industry. I can't see any. Except, to ensure the Senator's niece gets to be Playboy Playmate of the month in Hugh's next issue. *grin*

Posted by Leila: 
Being 5'1 and physically disabled there would be no way for me to protect myself if someone really wanted to harm me. Thats why when I work with someone for the first time I bring my friend with me, who happens to be a rather large guy. He has also done some modeling so he knows how things work. If a photographer has a problem with it than I explain my situation and if he/she still says I cannot bring him then goodbye and have a nice life.

Leila, I'm sorry, I missed your post at first in the flurry of responses.  This is the sort of feedback on the "why" of things that I was interested in.  Thank you for taking the time.  Your reasoning and approach make perfect sense to me!