Mary wrote:

You asked.  I did answer your question, the makeup was really bad, nothing right about it.  How more clear can I be? 

You said you would never pay a makeup artist....it shows in the work you were provided.  I wouldnt complain about a product I'm not paying for.


It also is a bit of a concern that you can't see this is bad makeup, the photographers I work with would take one look at this and refuse to shoot it.  It's the photographers job to see the detail, they are always responsible for the final result of any photo, thats why they make the big bucks.  Sorry if that sounds harsh, I really don't want to get into a pissing match over makeup but you asked...dont ask if you dont want opinions of others.

I compleatly agree with Mary as a professional I know a thinkg or two about make-up even before I got into the profession. Bad make-up is all around us. And if your not paying the make-up artist you get  what you paid for.
If the shoot is your idea and you come up with the concept the the make-up artist is taking your direction. Unless you say go at it , the make-up is up to you to change or sudgest other ideas.
I think that the make-up artist you have used is either very new to the industry or she has NO training. you should really either talk to her about her skills or find someone eles. I dont think you should kill her but maybe not let her have free range, I mean if she doent know that lips and eyes shouldnt compeat then I dont think she is a trained professional. But if your not paying your not going to find amazing talent at bargin basement prices.
Have you ever sat down and talked to your artist about the comments you are getting ? Becaue maybe she isnt aware that those photos arent that great becaue of the make-up.
I dont think the make-up is the only BAD thing about these shots. the lighting is off in some and other weird body positioning .
but heck keep trying

AshleyDanielle wrote:
I think if the effects that YOU or the PHOTOGRAPHER wanted came through in the photos you took and you like them GREAT!
Why care what others think? What matters is if you're happy with the outcome that represents you then that's all that matters.
I have seen many magazine photos that the makeup makes me ill and never understood how they ended up in a high fashion magazine in the first place. That's my opinion tho and they never asked me for my opinion lol suckers got me to buy the magazine anyway.
Variety and deversity in style is what makes them stand out. Maybe you got negative responses.. BUT you did get responses haha

If a photographer is shooting for fun  and simply as a hobby, what you say is correct....if a photographer is ever going to get anywhere in this business they can't shoot stuff that only they like.  their portfolios have to represent quality models, makeup, photography, styling etc. Taste is somewhat subjective...HOWEVER there are universal standards in photography, Makeup, Styling etc that you need to follow if you want your portfolio to appeal to the paying client. 

I'm stretching here and assuming (perhaps a mistake on my part) that there are people here  shooting for reasons other then self gratification....

Hamza wrote:
A good MUA is someone that gives you Exactly what you want...

It is OK for an MUA to make suggestions, nothing wrong with that, I for one welcome it.

If you are the Client or are in Charge of the Shoot, you should get Exactly what you want.

First off, everyone has a different perspective and perception.  Catalog makeup, news caster makeup, jewelry store owner ad spot or fashion makeup, so its difficult to agree or disagree with any statement posted here.

I would never dream of telling an artist what to do in a fashion driven relationship.  The client suddenly has more experience in artistry because they have dedicated an afternoon of thought, whereas a makeup artist is immersed 12 hours per day in their craft.

A fashion approach would be to paint broad strokes or create a treatment outlining the parameters or boundries.  Point out what is off limits to the mission, and allow them their workspace.

Would you hire a contractor to do something you couldn't do for yourself and then give them technical advice and tell them how to perform their job???

Spock says highly illogical captain...

Deadly Design Make-up wrote:

I compleatly agree with Mary as a professional I know a thinkg or two about make-up even before I got into the profession. Bad make-up is all around us. And if your not paying the make-up artist you get  what you paid for.
If the shoot is your idea and you come up with the concept the the make-up artist is taking your direction. Unless you say go at it , the make-up is up to you to change or sudgest other ideas.
I think that the make-up artist you have used is either very new to the industry or she has NO training. you should really either talk to her about her skills or find someone eles. I dont think you should kill her but maybe not let her have free range, I mean if she doent know that lips and eyes shouldnt compeat then I dont think she is a trained professional. But if your not paying your not going to find amazing talent at bargin basement prices.
Have you ever sat down and talked to your artist about the comments you are getting ? Becaue maybe she isnt aware that those photos arent that great becaue of the make-up.
I dont think the make-up is the only BAD thing about these shots. the lighting is off in some and other weird body positioning .
but heck keep trying

wow.

pretty damn harsh considering I freely admitted that I've done very very few fashion oriented shoots and only used a makeup artist a few times.  Also, you might try reading the thread where I said that while I've worked with her more than once, she was hired (or otherwise compensated) by the model, not by myself.

I'm getting kind of sick of getting the "professional level" beatdown when I admitted that when it comes to fashion/glamour I'm a complete amateur (I generally shoot events and candid portrait type work.)  Does anyone have any idea how to assist someone who is admitting a beginner level status who is asking for help without being condescending and telling me how bad I suck?

Amanda Schlicher wrote:

wow.

pretty damn harsh considering I freely admitted that I've done very very few fashion oriented shoots and only used a makeup artist a few times.  Also, you might try reading the thread where I said that while I've worked with her more than once, she was hired (or otherwise compensated) by the model, not by myself.

I'm getting kind of sick of getting the "professional level" beatdown when I admitted that when it comes to fashion/glamour I'm a complete amateur (I generally shoot events and candid portrait type work.)  Does anyone have any idea how to assist someone who is admitting a beginner level status who is asking for help without being condescending and telling me how bad I suck?

You have been given plenty of great advice by many people, too bad all you heard was that you suck.  I do find that interesting.

Amanda Schlicher wrote:
wow.

pretty damn harsh considering I freely admitted that I've done very very few fashion oriented shoots and only used a makeup artist a few times.  Also, you might try reading the thread where I said that while I've worked with her more than once, she was hired (or otherwise compensated) by the model, not by myself.

I'm getting kind of sick of getting the "professional level" beatdown when I admitted that when it comes to fashion/glamour I'm a complete amateur (I generally shoot events and candid portrait type work.)  Does anyone have any idea how to assist someone who is admitting a beginner level status who is asking for help without being condescending and telling me how bad I suck?

For starters I never said you sucked but you seam to be kinda bashing anyone who gives you any comments about your work, I mentioned the lighting and body positioning because thats your job not the make-up artist. And I have READ THIS WHOLE THREAD . You asked for help and I gave some constructive critisisums and if you can't take it then dont bother posting a thread. You are the photographer when you "hire" a model and she's hiring the makeup artist maybe sudgest that you dont want to work with that particular make-up artist in the future.
But that's my opinion you can either take it or leave it just dont get all pissed off at me becaue I gave you some comments. If you think my words are harsh wait untill you acctually get out there.

Amanda Schlicher wrote:
Does anyone have any idea how to assist someone who is admitting a beginner level status who is asking for help without being condescending and telling me how bad I suck?

Yes. I'd suggest to anyone who wanted that information that they read this thread, looking at what's written, and trying to avoid seeing what's not there.

There's been a LOT of good advice in it.

Amanda Schlicher wrote:

I have never and will likely never pay a makeup artist (unless I require one for a specific personal project).  Most of what I do is for model portfolios, so the model is in charge of hiring or otherwise compensating the makeup artist.

Also, your comment was kind of stupid and pointless.  You answered my question by stating that you refuse to answer the question.  There's nothing constructive about that.

Mary is very passionate about these things. bad makeup hurts her feelings.

I'm tired carry on...

Mary wrote:

I really dont need to look like a big shot on MM, are you for real?  I was answering your question you dont like the answer so now you try to insult me....

A little advice.....Get over yourself.  Grow a thicker skin, you're going to need it...and dont ask questions unless you want real answers.....You need to learn to look at details, you aren't doing that right now.  I am not going to sit here and give you a free makeup lesson by giving you details on makeup application and how this is wrong, for that I will charge you and clearly you NEVER pay a makeup artist so no, no free lesson for you

AshleyDanielle wrote:
I think if the effects that YOU or the PHOTOGRAPHER wanted came through in the photos you took and you like them GREAT!
Why care what others think? What matters is if you're happy with the outcome that represents you then that's all that matters.
I have seen many magazine photos that the makeup makes me ill and never understood how they ended up in a high fashion magazine in the first place. That's my opinion tho and they never asked me for my opinion lol suckers got me to buy the magazine anyway.
Variety and deversity in style is what makes them stand out. Maybe you got negative responses.. BUT you did get responses haha

I disagree. Makeup THAT bold needs to be the focus of the shot, and not have to compete with overdone wardrobe.

The OP would do well to differentiate. Especially if you're starting out, it's common to want to get too much accomplished in the shot. Make the wardrobe the focus or the makeup. I liked the colours and if properly done it might have been a better makeup shot.

You also need to learn as the photographer to direct the shoot. I know from experience how frustrating it is to get NO input from a photographer. Also, if you're dealing with people who are just starting out;which I freely admit I am, you're doing those people no favord by letting them run wild or leaving them to thier own devices. People who want to make a profession of such things need to take direction, and you as a learning photographer need to learn to give it.

Mach V Speed wrote:
You didnt give any real answers. You came off spouting like a big shot.

If you had said "that makeup is horrible, but here's why
1) 2), and 3), your response would have been appreciated. Instead, you gave a "its so horrible I'm not even going to go into it because you should already know" type response, which doesn't help out the OP one bit. Why waste your time posting?

Dont forget, this site isnt just professional photographers who know everything, but people who are trying to learn as much as they can to improve themselves as best as they can. The OP was merely looking for advice, tips, and constructive criticism, and from an outside view, you didn't really give any.

Mach V Speed wrote:
You didnt give any real answers. You came off spouting like a big shot.

If you had said "that makeup is horrible, but here's why
1) 2), and 3), your response would have been appreciated. Instead, you gave a "its so horrible I'm not even going to go into it because you should already know" type response, which doesn't help out the OP one bit. Why waste your time posting?

Dont forget, this site isnt just professional photographers who know everything, but people who are trying to learn as much as they can to improve themselves as best as they can. The OP was merely looking for advice, tips, and constructive criticism, and from an outside view, you didn't really give any.

Trust me, I never forget that this site is mostly hobbiests.  I think I gave constructive critisism....you all just perhaps thought I was being sarcastic and I wasnt.  There is NOTHING right about the makeup...NOTHING....I looked very hard for something done right, couldnt find it.  Why would I tell a photographer what the makeup artist did wrong?  is that constructive?  No.  Instead I told the photographer that is was bad makeup and that it's the photographers job to know bad makeup when he or she sees it...I then went on to tell her how to spot bad makeulp, thats by learning what good makeup looks like (magazines etc)  I then when as far as to tell her how to direct the artist (something most hobbiests have no clue about)   

You may not care for how I communicate but that shouldn't blind you to the message and the message was pretty clear. ....I and others here gave the OP the tools to help herself in the future, this is better then a mini internet makeup lesson.  So I suggest  you look past the way I phrased my first sentence and read everything I have written here on this thread.  Let me be clear, I work full time in this industry,  one reason I am up at 6am    I could care less what MM folks think of me, being a  "big shot" here isnt going to do squat for me...  I've never accepted any job offer from anyone on a  message board and I don't expect to.

My communication style on message boards is normally short and to the heart of the matter because I don't have all day like some people to ponder and refine my speech    I've also come to learn over the years that meesages dipped in honey dont really sink in like the straight shooter messages.....and so why do I bother or even give a cr$#???  because a photographer friend of mine emailed me this thread (because  the makeup was sooooo bad) and as Miss Anthropy said it ...bad makeup hurts my feelings   I would rid the world of it if I could..... LOL!

  I have by the way told the photographer not to email me anymore links to threads like this....It seems to usually end up that people want validation on boards like this... not real advice....they want to be coddled and thats not my style.   

I am not going to give out a makeup lesson on specific problems with the makeup... that really doesnt help her as a photographer, she's not a makeup artist.....That would be like me coming here and saying...

"Please help me, this photographer I work with is getting slammed by others, can someone tell me is he really that bad???  I just love working with him! please tell me how to spot a good photographer!" .................

What good would it do me for someone to come on here and tell me how his meter wasn't on, his lighting source was coming from the wrong direction. his focus is off.. etc???    I'm a makeup artist, if I'm testing what is important is that I know how to spot a good photographer and avoid the bad....my job is not to fix the photographer and make him better.

Mary wrote:
the makeup on all of these shots is terrible, thats my professional opinion and I'm not even going to get into the mistakes made on these, it would be easier to point out what was done correctly, I just cant find anything.  I dont think you should kill the artist but paying her for future work should be out of the question.

I totally agree with Mary Erickson - I almost gagged when I saw the first shot (good thing I didn't have a swig of my water in my mouth at the time or I would have sprayed it all over my keyboard and ruined said keyboard!)!!!

JAY carreon
PHOTOGRAPHER