Zao Photo wrote:
I think TFP should go to established models, who actually have something to offer.

Models just starting out, should pay for their shoots, even if only a little ammount, they haven't earned anything.

Unless it's a GWC shooting, then they can have each other.

*waits to get pounced on*

lol...pounce!

joking.. I agree with you! And even now (being a professional TFPer *haha*) I am still very humbled when an outstanding photographer will work with me for TFP I shoot because I love it and that is why if I am doing a TFP, the priority is getting what the photographer wants...hey, whatever, as long as I get to be in front of the camera!

P.S.  This topic has been talked to death! I'm sure if you searched the forums you will find some input to this

ModelPrincess wrote:
Please everyone keep in mind, before this thread turns into all the others, that the on-line modeling world is the world that gives models this idea. Models who were modeling long before this, just learned about TFP (such as me). In the real modeling worlds the photographer and the model get paid for the collaboration. Paid by an agency, or by profits of a project. The on-line world is a whole different place!

You've got that right!  When I had lots of clients to shoot for commercially, it was the client that owned the images and therefore paid both the model and photographer.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
You've got that right!  When I had lots of clients to shoot for commercially, it was the client that owned the images and therefore paid both the model and photographer.

In the mainstream that's still the way it is.  Photographer gets commissioned to do the project.  A model is hired and paid.  The photographer is hired and paid.  It isn't complicated.  Who owns the images (whether the photographer owns the copyright and provides a license to the client or sells the copyright outright) is something that is negotiated as part of the contract.

This thread is really about the Internet. 

To me, the one thing that has gotten lost with the net is legitimate testing.  Without disparaging any photographers here, TFP has become so readily available, models don't seem to try to test with the successful editorial and commercial photographers from the mainstream.  There is a lot to be said to get one of the greats to work with you.

But to answer your question, in the real world, models get paid money.  If a photographer is in the business of shooting headshots and portfolios, the model pays him.  If he is in the business of shooting portraits, the customer pays him.  If a photographer has been commissioned for a commercial project, the client pays him, directly or indirectly.

It all seems simple to me.

00siris wrote:
When did this big turn around take place? and why is it so popular around these sights?

That's what I've been asking all the time. Photography used to be highly respected profession and no one would expect photographers services at no charge. Aftreall it takes a lot of skill and there's a lot of money in equipment. When did it happen that photographers are expected to work for free or (what's even more ridiculous) pay for their services?

I don't get it,

Mark

MarkMarek wrote:
That's what I've been asking all the time. Photography used to be highly respected profession and no one would expect photographers services at no charge. Aftreall it takes a lot of skill and there's a lot of money in equipment. When did it happen that photographers are expected to work for free or (what's even more ridiculous) pay for their services?

I don't get it,

Mark

When digital became cheap and easy.  There are plenty of GWC who think they are professional quality photographers, on this site even *gasp*!  It doesn't seem likely to me that this is an internet phenomenon.  Both photographers and models just starting out have always gone through a period where they needed to build their portfolios, and these arrangements have always existed, though the amount and type of compensation is varied.  The problem is, GWC who happen to have talent (or at least talk big enough to make people think they have talent and get "established") giving away their services to get close to pretty girls ruining it for everyone else.  Models don't have to pay for portfolios anymore because there are so many people willing to give it away for free.  I would charge for portfolios, but no one would take me up on it because Joe Blow down the street will do it for free (and truth be told, most model wannabes literally can't tell the difference between a good photo (or photographer) and a bad one.)
90% of models who develop a portfolio will never get picked up by an agency or booked for any commercial work, so the quality of their portfolio doesn't really matter anyway.  But at least back in the day they probably would still have had to pay for it!

ModelPrincess wrote:
Please everyone keep in mind, before this thread turns into all the others, that the on-line modeling world is the world that gives models this idea. Models who were modeling long before this, just learned about TFP (such as me). In the real modeling worlds the photographer and the model get paid for the collaboration. Paid by an agency, or by profits of a project. The on-line world is a whole different place!

Actually that's only partially true, or let me qualify that by saying, in this area it's only partially true.  I got started in photography because of my sister, who was a model in the 70's, long before the internet, much of her portfolio was TFP.  While in high school I worked with two of the photographers that she used and there was much talk then about TFP.  I don't want to say that it was that way across the board, different areas of the country/world do things differently at different times.  While it may not have been as common or popular as itis now, because of the internet, TFP was certainly around before the internet.  Before someone comments....my sister was a part of "the real modeling world".  That was her only profession and lived quite well from it.

00siris wrote:
Thank you modelprincess - so I'm not crazy.  fashion forums, promotional marketers, magazines all pay both the model and the photographer.

If I see this correctly, many of these start up models want to get paid for their poses, get copies of the work,  and have ownership rights as well. On top of everything else THEY ARE BUILDING THEIR OWN PORTFOLIO. Doesn't that count for something? If not, they expect the photographer to pay THEM for building THEIR port. WOW what a deal!

No you aren't crazy. Often times though the photographer is hired to do something and pays the model directly to help in the project, such as a book. Then there are times when the agency chooses the photog, and the model themselves, and at that time they would be responsible for payment. So it can happen both ways. I've always been paid for my work, I have never done a TFP. I'm not saying I wouldn't for the right person, but I'm established and after 15 years, am able to have a little more edge than the new girls. I wish someone could teach these girls the business, so they don't make fools of themselves. A models greatest asset is her mind. If she can't do marketing, accounting, and PR, the pretty face will go to waste! Isabel has a good bit of knowledge in this as well so definitely look out for her words, her and I are on the same page!

Alan from Aavian Prod wrote:
This thread is really about the Internet. 

To me, the one thing that has gotten lost with the net is legitimate testing.  Without disparaging any photographers here, TFP has become so readily available, models don't seem to try to test with the successful editorial and commercial photographers from the mainstream.  There is a lot to be said to get one of the greats to work with you.

The only issue with this is that it's hard to know who the greats are, on-line. Anyone can take some good shots, it really is so much more difficult to weed through all the different photographers, and take a chance. I get so many photogs who want to do TFP, and maybe I've turned down someone who could give me some great shots, it's really so hard to know. To me there's also a safety issue with on-line offers. I'm not one to bring an escort, I like to run my business without needing someone there, but in those circumstances, I feel it's a little scarey.

BasementStudios wrote:

Actually that's only partially true, or let me qualify that by saying, in this area it's only partially true.  I got started in photography because of my sister, who was a model in the 70's, long before the internet, much of her portfolio was TFP.  While in high school I worked with two of the photographers that she used and there was much talk then about TFP.  I don't want to say that it was that way across the board, different areas of the country/world do things differently at different times.  While it may not have been as common or popular as itis now, because of the internet, TFP was certainly around before the internet.  Before someone comments....my sister was a part of "the real modeling world".  That was her only proffession and lived quite well from it.

I wasn't implying that it didn't exist, just that it wasn't anywhere near what it is now, especially with the on-line modeling industry growing the way it is.

George ephrem wrote:
Ican remember when there was no TFP. the photog just got paid, even by the model. I think this "turn-around" came arond the mid 80's, and has "blossomed" into this great big beautiful flower , that we have today.
yes i do TFP_CD , i have over 30 yrs exp, keeps my craft up , i also do scenics too, and hey are quite enjoyable.

hey i have  an idea, lets tell jc penney that if they will GIVE us clothes , we will tell all our friends that j c penneys', has some really groovy clothes.

what say you?????

I worked for Gap in the early 90's and in return for mannequin modeling in their store window we got paid a small fee and a gift certificate to the store!

ModelPrincess wrote:
The only issue with this is that it's hard to know who the greats are, on-line. Anyone can take some good shots, it really is so much more difficult to weed through all the different photographers, and take a chance. I get so many photogs who want to do TFP, and maybe I've turned down someone who could give me some great shots, it's really so hard to know. To me there's also a safety issue with on-line offers. I'm not one to bring an escort, I like to run my business without needing someone there, but in those circumstances, I feel it's a little scarey.

Well, maybe that is my point.  I think I am suggesting that because TFP on the web seems convenient, models aren't finding the photographers that are shooting for Vogue or General Motors or Clairol and trying to meet and test with them.  I doubt that you will find very many online.  And maybe that is my point.

There are those models that want to make a career as net models.  Major success comes when you get away from the net and get mainstream representation in the big markets.  The guy that shoots for Cosmo is going to take a better picture than the one who takes school portraits for a living (although that isn't completely true since I have met some talented guys in smaller markets).  But the guy working for Nike has a lot more clout than the one shooting for Ridgemont High.

Now you are going to ask how to find the beter photographers.  It was never easy to test with them ten years ago, it is no easier now.  They have no time because they are working for a living.

The answer to your question is they are out there.   But if you are looking on the web to find them in a forum, you are looking in the wrong place.

In the meantime, MM is a great group of people!

(and truth be told, most model wannabes literally can't tell the difference between a good photo (or photographer) and a bad one.)
90% of models who develop a portfolio will never get picked up by an agency or booked for any commercial work, so the quality of their portfolio doesn't really matter anyway.

hmmm

Alan from Aavian Prod wrote:

Well, maybe that is my point.  I think I am suggesting that because TFP on the web seems convenient, models aren't finding the photographers that are shooting for Vogue or General Motors or Clairol and trying to meet and test with them.  I doubt that you will find very many online.  And maybe that is my point.

There are those models that want to make a career as net models.  Major success comes when you get away from the net and get mainstream representation in the big markets.  The guy that shoots for Cosmo is going to take a better picture than the one who takes school portraits for a living (although that isn't completely true since I have met some talented guys in smaller markets).  But the guy working for Nike has a lot more clout than the one shooting for Ridgemont High.

Now you are going to ask how to find the beter photographers.  It was never easy to test with them ten years ago, it is no easier now.  They have no time because they are working for a living.

The answer to your question is they are out there.   But if you are looking on the web to find them in a forum, you are looking in the wrong place.

In the meantime, MM is a great group of people!

I agree! Personally it's not an issue for me, I feel blessed to have shot with some very well known photogs. And it's very true that MM has a great group of people here, who in most cases are supportive and helpful. Some have ego's that are inconginable, but hey, I guess that's everywhere! Ego maniacs need love too!

00siris wrote:
Thank goodness for models like ModelPrincess

Awwwww.....that's the nicest thing any Mayhemer has ever said to me!

ModelPrincess wrote:
Awwwww.....that's the nicest thing any Mayhemer has ever said to me!

It's also true. I like the way you think and express yourself. it's so rare

00siris wrote:

It's also true. I like the way you think and express yourself. it's so rare

Is it to soon to say I love you? Most would tell you I talk way too much!!

00siris wrote:

It's also true. I like the way you think and express yourself. it's so rare

Is it to soon to say I love you? Most would tell you I talk way too much!!

ModelPrincess wrote:
Is it to soon to say I love you? Most would tell you I talk way too much!!

ROTFLMAO

funny too Kudos to you sweetie - but remember, this is NOT a dating site (LOL) *winks at his new found friend*

00siris wrote:
Actually, the explosion of desktop publishing really created the desire for "non traditional" models in my judgement. That's more of a credit to photohop more than the internet although the internet is extremely important as well.

You are aware that Photoshop is not a desktop publishing program, aren't you?

area291 wrote:

You are aware that Photoshop is not a desktop publishing program, aren't you?

Indeed - you're right but photoshop's image editing capability brought more new interest to the field and of course illustrator became ever more popular as a result. I mentioned Photoshop because, as it pertains to photography, it's the image editing that is important.

Thank you kindly for making the distinction. It's good when people keep you on your toes.

00siris wrote:
I often wonder ...
When a young girl is just breaking into the modeling industry - there seems to be this notion that photographers should pay them for their poses. And if and when they are paid they believe they are entitled to the pictures as well.

Girls think that they can ask for money and pictures because there are some GWC's out there who will pay just that. So, they enter into that business and begin to believe it is the norm. And what is the harm? The girl gets to pose in front of a camera and get the compensation she feels she deserves and the photographer gets to photograph a pretty girl and build their port or get more clout or whatever. Obviously both are happy - the photographer wouldn't OFFER to pay if they didn't want to or feel the girl was worth their money. And the girl, getting an offer of X dollars to come pose is happy because she's making a little extra cash and doing what she wants.


Is this going to fly with the higher up photographers? Hell no, but thats the models loss, not the photographer (there will always be girls willing to pose and if one plays a diva because she feels she needs to be compensated in X way then they will just move on).

The harm, i suppose, comes from a bunch of clueless people thinking they know the ropes and demand what they are worth - but once they keep finding their offers are being rejected they'll either wise up or give up.

And as for the photographers and models who are serious about working and updating portfolios or whatever, this whole "TFP with pay" thing shouldn't really interfere... as near as I can figure, its a completely seperate side business from modeling.

Moonlightflame wrote:

Girls think that they can ask for money and pictures because there are some GWC's out there who will pay just that. So, they enter into that business and begin to believe it is the norm. And what is the harm? The girl gets to pose in front of a camera and get the compensation she feels she deserves and the photographer gets to photograph a pretty girl and build their port or get more clout or whatever. Obviously both are happy - the photographer wouldn't OFFER to pay if they didn't want to or feel the girl was worth their money. And the girl, getting an offer of X dollars to come pose is happy because she's making a little extra cash and doing what she wants.


Is this going to fly with the higher up photographers? Hell no, but thats the models loss, not the photographer (there will always be girls willing to pose and if one plays a diva because she feels she needs to be compensated in X way then they will just move on).

The harm, i suppose, comes from a bunch of clueless people thinking they know the ropes and demand what they are worth - but once they keep finding their offers are being rejected they'll either wise up or give up.

And as for the photographers and models who are serious about working and updating portfolios or whatever, this whole "TFP with pay" thing shouldn't really interfere... as near as I can figure, its a completely seperate side business from modeling.

Moonlight you are so right but then you ought to know that it really is a problem with for photographers (well at least from my own experiences) because there are some models whom I would like to shoot as a TFCD exchange but they often believe that I should pay them and give them the pictures even whe they admittingly confirm that they want to build THEIR port -

00siris wrote:

Moonlight you are so right but then you ought to know that it really is a problem with for photographers (well at least from my own experiences) because there are some models whom I would like to shoot as a TFCD exchange but they often believe that I should pay them and give them the pictures even whe they admittingly confirm that they want to build THEIR port -

Ooops i see. That was your point

00siris wrote:
Moonlight you are so right but then you ought to know that it really is a problem with for photographers (well at least from my own experiences) because there are some models whom I would like to shoot as a TFCD exchange but they often believe that I should pay them and give them the pictures even whe they admittingly confirm that they want to build THEIR port -

Its true that there are some people out there who have "the look" or "the talent" as far as this industry is concerned but as a general rule of life: if you're an a$$ then i dont want to be your friend, your co-worker, or have anything to do with you.

In my case, as a model, i find that if I work with a photographer and get the most stunning and amazing pictures from it, but he treated me in a way i feel wasn't respectful (or if he was just mean or if i plain didn't like them) I'd probably never work with them again.

I hope it works the other way too. If i were a photographer and this model would be PERFECT for *the* shot but she was hard to work with, i'd sacrifice the use of that model to preserve my sanity.

After all, you could make the most beautiful work in the world but if you go crazy, you're no good to anyone.

Moonlightflame wrote:
After all, you could make the most beautiful work in the world but if you go crazy, you're no good to anyone.

hmm, so that's why I'm not good to anyone, a**holes...

Moonlightflame wrote:

00siris wrote:
After all, you could make the most beautiful work in the world but if you go crazy, you're no good to anyone.

Sweetie: I agree on just about everything you said ("wrote") however, not oo sure on this point - some of most brilliant brains and artist have been labeled "crazy" but their work is timely and awesome

i.e. - Amadeus, piccasso, Warhol, etc

Zao Photo wrote:
I think TFP should go to established models, who actually have something to offer.

Models just starting out, should pay for their shoots, even if only a little ammount, they haven't earned anything.

Unless it's a GWC shooting, then they can have each other.

*waits to get pounced on*

I don't believe that. Anyone should be able to.. Who cares if they are established. Did you pay for your pictures before you were established???? I think it depends on what the photographer wants.. not how you think it should be.

ModelPrincess wrote:
Please everyone keep in mind, before this thread turns into all the others, that the on-line modeling world is the world that gives models this idea. Models who were modeling long before this, just learned about TFP (such as me). In the real modeling worlds the photographer and the model get paid for the collaboration. Paid by an agency, or by profits of a project. The on-line world is a whole different place!

This is true, but I believe it is good this way, that way people who would be vary good models can have a shot, as for before.. if they didn't have the money.. they were less likely to get noticed..