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Models expecting free pictures
Here's a question... If you pay a model for a shoot, and she signs a full release, should she expect you to give her the images? I've only had this problem with one model, but I'd like to get opinions from other models and photographers. I paid this model for our shoot last year, and now she periodically e-mails me asking for the images so she can use them for her portfolio. She even has a notation next to my name on her OMP profile stating that she never received images from me. If I had agreed to give her the images in the first place, that would be different, but it was never even discussed prior to the shoot. My stance is, she was paid for her work, so why does she expect me to give mine away for free. Any thoughts? May 10 05 02:19 pm Link Posted by John Lavery: It depends on what you are shooting with the model, but it should be in this day and age disk of some of the images from a shoot or campaign that you might be shooting from. It's easy to be respectful of those you work with and want to work with again. May 10 05 02:22 pm Link Hmmmm....my stance is that it really should be discussed before the shoot.....so that there are no questions later.....but.... If I pay a model to shoot and we had not discussed prints or a CD, the shoot was a paid shoot and if the model likes the images enough then they should not have an issue paying for them.....but again...I do agree that it should be discussed prior to the shoot.....and prices should be given...... I feel that there is some misconception about a models work or a photographers work....if a shoot is going to happen....details must be discussed....when you fail to cover everything...it makes it harder for those who work with that person in the future.....all because the discussion did not happen.... The model is mad at all photogs because she did not get pics she felt she deserved.....the photog is mad at all models because a model is saying he did not complete the transactions.....and basically what has happened is attention to detail was not given.... Tim May 10 05 02:29 pm Link I think it prudent to give any participants web-size photos for their online portfolios, watermarked if you so choose. After all, they did lend their talents and the image would not have been possible without them. Besides, there is no cost for emailing a small photo. However, acquisition of prints and anything beyond that should be something that is covered in the release form. It could be considered a form of payment, partial payment or something extra that the model must agree to pay for. May 10 05 02:30 pm Link While a [commercial] client is certainly not obligated to give copies of final image/print to the talent they shoot, I have found that most do when asked. Everyone is a professional and there is a degree of respect for one another that generally makes such a request nothing out of the ordinary. We generally receive tear sheets on behalf of our people (including those that are simply sent electronic - but in full resolution, since a land-based model's printed portfolio is more vital than a website) some time after the final images are used in their project. The models, of course, use these in their portfolios. It's is a personal decision for all, but seems not too much to ask to be considerate and to provide tears to the talent. Often, tears are as or more important than the payment, at least for beginning models. May 10 05 02:37 pm Link Ok, so it seems I should just give her the images? Now here's another question. If I'm expected to pay a model to shoot with me, and give her pictures to use in her portfolio, why would any model ever pay a photographer or do a TFP? May 10 05 02:51 pm Link If the model was hired and paid, I don't think you should give them all the images... just the one (or two?) that were used in the final product. A tearsheet is customary to provide, even when the work was paid. May 10 05 03:00 pm Link What did you work out ahead of time...?? What does your model release for that shoot state? Me if I pay it is for a reason - IE: site content etc and I do not want those images everywhere or they are not exclusive to the site... Thus I tell the models - pick your favorite 3-5 images and you get those in addition to pay... Noone will ever get 30-40 images from me, even in TFP because TFP is for building you book right?? and 30-40 images of the same set are not needed... Also models will never get a copy of all images unedited... ooo that is just a problem waiting to happen. NOW THIS: "If I'm expected to pay a model to shoot with me, and give her pictures to use in her portfolio, why would any model ever pay a photographer or do a TFP?" This is the question of the year and why I think the internet and DWC (dude with camera) has really taken a bite out of the photo business... I woudl love to charge - and I do not mean like 3-500 a shoot for 10 edited images - but 50-100 bucks for a few hours of shooting woudl make me happy as at least some of my time woudl be covered.. but all you need to do is open a OMP profile with someone's photos and say you need TFP and you will get 1000 offers... for free... why pay? May 10 05 03:02 pm Link Posted by John Lavery: Ever feel like you're banging your head against a wall? May 10 05 03:04 pm Link Okay let me put it in this perspective. A commercial client pays you to shoot stuff for them. Are you going to want tearssheets or samples of what you have done with them? After all reproducing them costs money. Of course you are. In my contract they are obligated to give me 3 copies of what I have done for them. However, I have never paid a model. Ever. Models pay me. BUT if I can pay a big time model to test with me....hell yeah I would give her samples of what I did with her....at least thats a compliment to me. And word gets around...."Oh cool who shot that? Michael Giordano....isn't it great?" yada yada yada. People like to work with me because I remain flexible but I am quite blunt in my own nice way that makes them understand why I am doing what. I usually work out a compromise...for the good of my name. I think you should exercise that just this one time. Put it behind you and the next time you will know. May 10 05 03:15 pm Link Posted by John Lavery: This is the main reason I prefer to pay. The images are yours. Yes, its courtesy to give a few (either prints or web size with your copyright info though)- but the nice thing about courtesy is no deadlines and you make the rules. May 10 05 04:33 pm Link it IS kinda weird when there are any / nude images of one going around - being used, showing up, your friends and colleagues comment that they recognised you - and if one has not ever even seen them... its just - weird. May 10 05 05:43 pm Link If you paid her and didn't agree to anything more, either verbally or in writing, then anything you might CHOOSE to give her is a professional courtesy, a gift. You don't OWE her anything. Pardon me for showing my age, but there's and old saying, "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar." In other words, you get more by being nice. Clearly, this model has behaved like an asshole. She wouldn't get anything more from me than a threat to sue her for defamation of character. May 10 05 05:53 pm Link "It depends on what you are shooting with the model, but it should be in this day and age disk of some of the images from a shoot or campaign that you might be shooting from. It's easy to be respectful of those you work with and want to work with again." I totally agree with what Alex said. I think it would be just a waste of time if I wasn't gonna get any of the images from the shoot. Sure there's money involve, but, give the model something even 2 or 3 images could always work. You don't have to give her hundreds of pictures. May 10 05 06:04 pm Link I always give models images, even when I'm paying them. The only exception is when I'm doing the work commercially for a client and then it's clearly outlined in the model release what happens to the images. I shoot with models more than once and for one thing, a model that posts your image up for display is giving you a pat on the back and for me, that pat feels pretty good sometimes. If the model goes out and starts selling headshot prints of your images together, that's a different story, but for portfolio, printed, and online, I could care less if she sends more business my way. May 10 05 06:26 pm Link I haven't had to pay a model out of my pocket yet however I have done work for other people who have paid the model. I always tell the model she can purchase the pictures the agency doesn't use, but don't expect to get anything free. There is a misconception that working with one another entitles both parties or all parties to images, this is simply not true. A lot of guys are running around with cameras and not treating this as a business, in some form ruining things for those of us who are trying to start up in the business. Its simply a bad mix right, there seems to be sort of a standoff between models and photographers and makeup artists in and around forums and websites like this when if you step off the interent there's a whole different view of the "business" Slowly but surely in the little less than 2 years that I've been in the business. I've had to come face to face with many problems I thought never existed, but hey, these are the growing pains I guess. May 10 05 07:08 pm Link Posted by EMG STUDIOS: This is prolly more appropriate for the other thread called Photographers shouldn't do TFP. May 10 05 07:13 pm Link I'm not real sure what "prolly" means but; it seems that you took offense to my comments - as you should if they pertain to you. If I were a church going dude I could probably relate to your analogy about the church singer. I accept the fact that even a blind man can differentiate sugar from shit. May 10 05 07:20 pm Link Posted by EMG STUDIOS: No offense here. My point is if your pro- that will be evident in your work and you shouldnt fear amateurs affecting your ability to make a living. In other words- if Im an amateur and I hire a pro model, that shouldn't impact your ability to be a pro. As a pro- you work would be of such a far superior caliber that the model or your client could see the difference. May 10 05 07:25 pm Link If she was working for money,... then that was her compensation... if she wants pics limit it to one or two like what Jeff said... any more,... full price! JP May 11 05 12:06 am Link All agencies request tearsheets from a shoot, so why should it be different for a solitary model. I don't think it should be demanded, but give it to her. She's put her heart and soul into the images. I think I've seen this thread before, haven't I. When I shoot an album cover, I expect to get at least three copies for my portfolio. After an image is published, just give the model a tearsheet, where's the harm. Now as for this model, WTF give her what she wants make sure she knows what she can use it for and if you see it elsewhere, like on a paysite or something sue her ass off. But atleast you'll clear your name. Shawn May 11 05 12:35 am Link Just tell the model that pictures weren't part of the agreement. Send her a few edited ones and say they are complimentary or something and next time you will be more clear about the transaction. May 11 05 12:58 am Link If it were me, I'd give her some images. When I shoot with a model whom I've paid, it's not expected that I will give her anything so when I do send a zip file of some JPG's, the model is thrilled. After all, every time she shows 'em, it's more PR for you! But you do not "owe" her anything if it's not in the contract ... just a nice thing to do. As far as printing and tear sheets go, that should be figured into your cost of doing the shoot. Many models like to have tear sheets to show and the agencies back them on getting 'em! Think of it as another cost of advertisement. Makes for good PR! May 11 05 01:03 am Link Ooooh.... I think if Im paying for her time then she is not "ENTITLED" to any of the photos at all. Im paying for them. Now as a courtesy I USUALLY give up the photos on a disk anyway. But never to a model who I've paid and now wants to get pushy about it. HELL NO! If Im paying I am paying not just for her time but for the exclusivity of the images. Simple as that. Free images from a "PAID" shoot regardless of the use is a courtesy. But then again there is also the angle of the free promo. That is IF he/she even mentions who the photographer was. So it's a judgement call. May 12 05 06:16 pm Link I have been having this same problem with MUA's, fashion stylists, hairdressers and models. If its a paid shoot for them, thats the compensation. Pictures are not included if you are getting paid. I shot one model and paid her $ 500 and after the shoot she kinda demanded a copy of everything we shot. Since it was a FILM shoot, there wasn't much I could do and I told her so and thats the last I heard from her. Then I did a hair shoot with a well known hair stylist. I paid for his airfare and expenses, plus $ 600 for the 2 day shoot. The he demanded access to all of the images after I paid his bill. I told him it could be a paid shoot with no images, or a trade shoot with no pay, but not both. Then, for the same shoot, I paid an excellent MUA $ 600 for 2 days of incredible work, and I got an email a few days later wanting to know where her CD's were. I was pretty shocked and told her I might give her a few images for her portfolio or website, but not everything from the shoot. I again said that the difference was a trade/test shoot vs full pay. Then last month I paid a fashion stylist for a 2 day shoot. She pulled awesome stuff. I advanced her 3 day rate plus another $ 1,500 to pull clothes. We did the shoot. She owes me the clothing return money. I havent gotten it. She has written me for the CD's from the shoot. I never promised her any CD's I PAID her.... I wonder if my return check is being held up because I never gave her images we didn't sgree on. I prefer to pay the folks and say goodbye. Sometimes I have time to edit and send images, sometimes (most often) not. Its not about tear sheets on paid jobs, its about providing images when the artist has already received their compensation. You can have the money or the images, but not BOTH unless there has been a direct agreement to that effect before the shoot. Why do people think they can get both pay and images? I don't think that is fair to the photog unless they all agree in advance. May 12 05 10:04 pm Link I want to thank everyone who's left a comment. Your posts have given me a pretty good perspective on the situation, and allowed me to come up with a policy regarding images from paid shoots so this hopefully won't be a problem again going forward. May 13 05 11:31 am Link Glenn, It sounds like you may have a communications gap since this has happened multiple times. I agree with you, when you are paying someone they are not entitled to the images. However, I usually will provide a CD of web ready images for all particpants either for free or a few bucks to cover costs. More than anything it builds goodwill. Assuming it's a paid shoot if anyone wants additional images for their book beyond the tear sheet, I charge. mike Posted by glenn usdin: May 13 05 11:41 am Link No, a paid model is not entitled to the pics--unless it it a part TFP shoot where pics are part of the compensation arrangements. However, I always peovide models with some selected shots limited to promotional use and credited to me which is good PR. May 13 05 12:25 pm Link Posted by John Lavery: Do you owe her? ... I don't think so. But in the end, maybe the best solution would be to give her some web size files with your name plastered all over them. If she doesn't use them, you've lost no ground. If she does, you get the promo from you name being prominantly displayed. In the meantime, she can't say you never gave her anything. May 13 05 01:00 pm Link I would like some of the photos from a pay shoot on CD - for my portfolio. Why would a photographer NOT want their photos seen in a models portfolio - regardless of pay...is the question. May 13 05 01:15 pm Link Hey John, it's so simple. You payed her to model not to recieve free any thing. That's why some models do TFP shoots. The reason any model would charge for her time is to get paid for doing nudes or any style of Glamour work. It is just comment scence. Why should you give her free CD and Images if you paid hard earn cash. Most models will say Wow your a Dork Richie for thinking like that. No i just feel that if she wants a CD of the work you paid for she can Buy a CD from you. That makes more scence than to just give her free anything. Free Bees are for Time for Prints. Lady Atropos:wrpte.... I would like some of the photos from a pay shoot on CD - for my portfolio. Why would a photographer NOT want their photos seen in a models portfolio - regardless of pay...is the question. This is a comment from one of the models. Please no hate mail ok. Hey you got paid for the photo shoot. If you want images to post on your website or page of the photo shoot. You can atleast work out something with the photographer Such as pay for your CD so you can have images to post for your own portfolio. Or do some Time for prints shoots with the phtographer. May 13 05 01:39 pm Link Usually all the details are worked out before the shoot so there aren't any surprises. Usually I like to get two or three good ones, but if the photographer wants to send more that's cool too. I've had more issues getting CDs and prints from past TFP shoots than I have with paid gigs. Interesting how that works out:) May 13 05 01:46 pm Link I'm with Glenn on this, to the letter, and he gave some fine fine examples. Back in the old days (and I mean like 3 fricken years), we called it double dipping. You either get paid, or you trade your time and you get images. Prints cost money. Film cost money. Clearly, its easier now that you can burn images, but if you are paying someone for their time, be it a model, mua, stylist, why should they get anything else. Its offensive to think about the people who EXPECT to get more than the compensation. I also think the people that just give their stuff away ruined it for the rest of us, and have set a bad expectation. Many of us with labs actually make money on those prints, or some of us make money on retouching after the fact...even off a TFP, I make money on enlargement prints or retouching. Before digital, I would provide a contact sheet. Anyone wanted anything printed, they ordered it and were charged. Now, its a thumbnail CD. Clearly most everyone got it right though. Depends on the agreement prior to. But cmon photogs, dont give the store away..even if you're an amatuer. May 13 05 03:09 pm Link But when you're looking at a high or even moderately budget shoot, the cost of burning a CD or even making a couple of prints is negligable. Even on a shoe string budget, it's a sign of good will to send a long a few shots. I'm not saying give the model a contact sheet and print her up 10 9x12s, but it's not really a cost issue to email a jpg you've alreay worked over for yourself. May 13 05 03:15 pm Link In professional shoots, you usually can't give away the images to the model, but generally it is the tearsheet that is provided. May 13 05 04:11 pm Link That's why I mention on all my sites I only do PAID+CD even though some have been confused as to thinking "PAID OR TFCD" even though I also mention I am not avalible for "TFCD/TFP shoots" So, not sure why that would be so confussing. Sure I'm looking to get paid and get a CD but I am not asking for hundreds of pictures, even 5 or 10 pictures from the shoot will work for me. I've even lowered my rates to get a CD as well. May 13 05 07:00 pm Link Seriously, so if you were hired for a paid modeling job, you would turn it down if there was no CD? No way. I am spoiled because I work in real world photography and play on the net. I have never had an agency model ask me for a single image from a "real world" paid shoot. They are delighted if I send them a single jpeg, but most really only care about getting their agency voucher signed and getting paid. Most never ask and don't really care how they come out, as long as they are paid. So there is a huge disconnect between real world and net world. As Stu said, just 3 short years ago when I started, everything was way different. As far as some of the other comments about communication regarding my previous post on the subject, all of these items came up after the shoots and after payment was made. I think its unprofessional to change terms after the task is done, and it is as unprofessional as if i changed the payment terms after the shoot. That old "golden rule" thing. I agree it doesn't sound like much to get a few pics to a model, but when you shoot 5-10 girls a week for commercial stuff, you just don't have time to do that for every model, and most of the images go right to the agency/client, and we rarely do any post production work on them. So it would take 1-2 hours per shoot per model to sort and PS a few for them, and I don't build that expense or time into paid jobs. great discussion! May 13 05 08:37 pm Link "Seriously, so if you were hired for a paid modeling job, you would turn it down if there was no CD? No way." Yes, Why? Even if there was prints given, I have no way of putting the prints up on any of my sites. That's why I prefer a CD. If it was just pay no CD or prints then it's a waste of my time. How will I show off my work from the photographer(s) without getting anything? That's like saying "What if I paid a photographer to shoot me but he wasnt able to use the pictures AT ALL, would he do it, probably not." May 13 05 09:08 pm Link NO way..getting paid is a WASTE of time...Darn......... Glenn's top 5 reasons cash is better than CD's: 5. You can go to grocery store and buy food with cash. Cd's don't buy much. 4. You can pay your monthly rent/mortgage with cash. Landlords look down on CD's for monthly expenses. 3. When you are out on a date and the guy/girl dumps you, you can use cash to get a cab and go home. Taxi drivers won't take CD's for all but the shortest rides. 2. CD's are so over-rated for retirement savings. Well the plastic type of CD's. and the NUMBER 1 reason cash is better than CD's for payment...MOST internet providers don't take CD's for payment and if you want to have a place to host your sites full of images..you need a little CASH! seriously, I rest my case. Internet models vs agency models...two different folks doing much the same thing but approaching it from totally different methods. May 13 05 10:22 pm Link None of those reason reply to me. But, I gotta show my work some how! Oh well that's how I do things. No big deal really. You know there's a lot of models on the internet who are also signed with agencies. So, not sure why you do Internet model vs agency models for. I'm 5'5 so I wouldn't have any chance signing with anyone. May 13 05 10:31 pm Link |
