A.Fox wrote:
This has been discussed in the stylist forum. I had a very lengthy post were we spoke about MUAs who only have whites in their ports and it branched off into hair stylists as well.

It seems that you can make a living doing only white faces/hair but it is much harder to do that with only ethnic faces/hair so it doesn't get talked about as much. It is important for a MUA to know how to work on skin of all colors and display that in his/her port as well as it is for a hair stylist to know how to work on all textures of hair and display that in his/her port.

thank you that is exsactly what I am talking about! It was more of a even if i did only want to do black hair, why is that a problem? There are white stylist who do it all the time and no one says anything about it to them! It should be a two way street.

Iris Swope wrote:

*personal opinion, worth nothing*

TV shows with predominately caucasions are just regular shows...

TV shows that are predominately african-american are black shows...



Showing only african american models, makes you stand out, and look like an african-american stylist.

Showing all white models, is the norm...

most truthful statment of the night! I guess it would go into to whole nother topic for me to just say, why? why in the world is that?

Hair by Kara wrote:
now rember this is not a criticique of my port. the qestion at hand was is it fair to ask for ethinic diveristy in a port lacking white models and not ask the same of a port that has only white models?

I would like to add more X to my port. I will work with people that can make X look the best. If the photographers shoot with blonds they want to see what you can do with blonds.

Lets look at a client/photographer. I am a hobbyist, but would like to get paid for some of my work. If I want to get paid for senior portraits I should have a port that shows I can shoot seniors. The same for weddings, products, landscapes, art figure work...the list goes on. If I show a product client my wedding port I'll get some strange looks and won't get the job.

The one general exception to the above is if I have a name in the industry and that is what the client is paying for. Paul Mitchell doesn't need a port, just his combs, scissors and chair!

edit: btw, if i was shooting with african-american models I would be looking at your port, not one with blond swedes in it. And if I had a stylist who's work I liked, locally, that had only white models in the port and I was shooting african american models, I would ask about the persons experience with their hair.

Just the same as I would expect a client to want to see my product shots if that is what I am being hired for.

Hair by Kara wrote:

most truthful statment of the night! I guess it would go into to whole nother topic for me to just say, why? why in the world is that?

Don't ask why! lol...
Now that I've said that...maybe I need to put up pics of white models, so more people will work with me! lol...

Iris Swope wrote:

Don't ask why! lol...
Now that I've said that...maybe I need to put up pics of white models, so more people will work with me! lol...

hay sign me up! maybe we can do a white model colaboration? I style you shoot! now, all we need is some white models....

Iris Swope wrote:

Don't ask why! lol...
Now that I've said that...maybe I need to put up pics of white models, so more people will work with me! lol...

Hey, I did see one blond/blue in the bunch

Hair by Kara wrote:
In a previous thread, I asked mm'ers to critique my port, stating why or why they woudent want to work with me. The most common responce I got for why they wouldn't want to work with me was due to a " lack of diversity" in my port. Oddly enought, my port does include black, hispanic and indian models. Now granted, I would like to include all ethincity's in my port, I style hair for all people and would like to showcase that here on mm. One big reason for my joning is to find new models specificly white, asian and hispanic. My question is, from my observances here on the mm forums, I don't think I have ever seen any tell a photograper, hairstylist or mua who has all white models in there port that they needed to add some diversity. Why is that? Is it only the ports that lack white models that need diversity or should all ports show that they cater to all races? Is it just me or is there a double standerd here?

Show me the hispanic and Indian models, cause as I said before your port is too "salon." It has nothing to do with styling hair for shoots. It shows no depth or diversity in style. I am being harsher this time since you brought up the race card, and I have no tolerance for people who play that card,

Star

Star wrote:

Show me the hispanic and Indian models, cause as I said before your port is too "salon." It has nothing to do with styling hair for shoots. It shows no depth or diversity in style. I am being harsher this time since you brought up the race card, and I have no tolerance for people who play that card,

Star

Im not playing any card nor am i askin for a critique of my port. I know I need more fashion shots thats why im here and it is also not what this thread is about. My question is shouldn't the request for ethnictly diverse ports go for everyone, not just the ports with no white model?


and just to be clear

Kiran is indian

Jade is hispanic

Hair by Kara wrote:
my question is why is it not a problem when someone has only white models in there port?

My problem is a statment like the one above. Why should it be a problem having only white models???

Personally I shoot any color model that is available however here in Ocala it's hard enough to find any models at all much less black models. So if you look at my port and using your logic you would presume I have a predjudice against black models.

Sorry, but reading your post makes me feel like you're someone who goes looking for problems where none exist.

A.Fox wrote:
Nail. Head.

Ditto.

Overall though, there's nothing wrong with your port.

Hair by Kara wrote:
In a previous thread, I asked mm'ers to critique my port, stating why or why they woudent want to work with me.

Hair by Kara wrote:
Im not playing any card nor am i askin for a critique of my port. I know I need more fashion shots thats why im here and it is also not what this thread is about. My question is shouldn't the request for ethnictly diverse ports go for everyone, not just the ports with no white model?

Of course you are asking for a critique of your port.  The comments you complain about were generated by a request for a critique of your port.  So the nature of your port is very much at issue here.

And of course you are playing the race card.  You have made several statements which all boiled down to this:

Hair by Kara wrote:
now rember this is not a criticique of my port. the qestion at hand was is it fair to ask for ethinic diveristy in a port lacking white models and not ask the same of a port that has only white models?

You didn’t ask for people to “be fair”.  You asked them to critique your port.  The purpose of a port is to attract business (or collaborators).  It is to speak to a target audience.  Since you yourself say you want to work with more Caucasian models (that they are your target audience, in part), it is a perfectly “fair” critique to point out that your port is not well designed to attract them.

One would have to ignore the obvious, and not give you an honest answer, to be “fair” as you characterize it.

FKVPhotoGraphics wrote:

Hair by Kara wrote:
my question is why is it not a problem when someone has only white models in there port?

My problem is a statment like the one above. Why should it be a problem having only white models???

My point exactly! Its the the same reason that there is a problem with having only black models i would assume.

Personally I shoot any color model that is available however here in Ocala it's hard enough to find any models at all much less black models. So if you look at my port and using your logic you would presume I have a predjudice against black models.

this is by no means my logic, this is the logic that was presented to me by the fellow mm'ers who critiqued my port. All Im saying is it sould go both ways. equality for all!! I understand you compleetly, my problem is the exsact opisite of yours. I hardly knew any white people let alone fine some to shoot with where i live! Dosent mean I dont want to, diffrent demographics.


[/qoute] Sorry, but reading your post makes me feel like you're someone who goes looking for problems where none exist. [/qoute]

if the problem didnt exist, no one would have ever said that i need more white models in my port. Just like you, Im askin why?

TXPhotog wrote:

Hair by Kara wrote:
In a previous thread, I asked mm'ers to critique my port, stating why or why they woudent want to work with me.

Hair by Kara wrote:
Im not playing any card nor am i askin for a critique of my port. I know I need more fashion shots thats why im here and it is also not what this thread is about. My question is shouldn't the request for ethnictly diverse ports go for everyone, not just the ports with no white model?

Of course you are asking for a critique of your port.  The comments you complain about were generated by a request for a critique of your port.  So the nature of your port is very much at issue here.

And of course you are playing the race card.  You have made several statements which all boiled down to this:


You didn’t ask for people to “be fair”.  You asked them to critique your port.  The purpose of a port is to attract business (or collaborators).  It is to speak to a target audience.  Since you yourself say you want to work with more Caucasian models (that they are your target audience, in part), it is a perfectly “fair” critique to point out that your port is not well designed to attract them.

One would have to ignore the obvious, and not give you an honest answer, to be “fair” as you characterize it.

with all of this said, you still have not answered the question. my port aside, shoud it not go both way? thats all im asking. Should the ethnic diversity in the ports of mm'ers go for all ports and not just some?  The situation with my port was only used as an example to show how I have seen it asked for in in marjority african american ports and not asked for in marjority cauasian ports. the best explanation i got is because a marjortiy cauasion port is viewed as just a normal port as the industry is majority cauasion. This is not about what you think i should or shouldnt have in my port. i already had a thread about that. this is not what i need to fix or add or what market i am trying to go to. this qestion is about all ports in all mm mine and yes yours inculded also. If i needed to know anymore about what my port was missing or needed or lacked, id go and ask it that thread. if you want to try and start arguments and avoid the question you can do that elsewere. I am just asking a simple question, hoping to get a simple answer. There is a link to the thread with my port critique a few posts up, if you have something more to say, please by all means, post there and ill be happy to reply:) thank so much for your input and have a nice day!!

Hair by Kara wrote:
with all of this said, you still have not answered the question. my port aside, shoud it not go both way? thats all im asking. Should the ethnic diversity in the ports of mm'ers go for all ports and not just some? The situation with my port was only used as an example to show how I have seen it asked for in in marjority african american ports and not asked for in marjority cauasian ports. the best explanation i got is because a marjortiy cauasion port is viewed as just a normal port as the industry is majority cauasion. This is not about what you think i should or shouldnt have in my port. i already had a thread about that. this is not what i need to fix or add or what market i am trying to go to. this qestion is about all ports in all mm mine and yes yours inculded also. If i needed to know anymore about what my port was missing or needed or lacked, id go and ask it that thread. if you want to try and start arguments and avoid the question you can do that elsewere. I am just asking a simple question, hoping to get a simple answer. There is a link to the thread with my port critique a few posts up, if you have something more to say, please by all means, post there and ill be happy to reply:) thank so much for your input and have a nice day!!

And there it is again.  The race card.

What does "should" mean?  Why "should" a port contain anything, or not contain anything?  Where does "should" come from?

You seem to have the notion that it comes from some sort of Fairness Doctrine, that ports "should" have some sort of ethnic mix.  And since you raise the issue of my port and what it "should" have in it, I suppose either it is racially correct or it is not, and I "should" be concerned about that?  (For the record, my MM port contains one African American, two Hispanics, one American Indian and one Asian.  I suppose it "should" be different, based on some "Fairness Doctrine", but it suits my needs just fine.  And that is the point.)

I did give you an answer, you just did not pay attention to it.  Here it is again:

TXPhotog wrote:
The purpose of a port is to attract business (or collaborators).  It is to speak to a target audience.  Since you yourself say you want to work with more Caucasian models (that they are your target audience, in part), it is a perfectly “fair” critique to point out that your port is not well designed to attract them.

One would have to ignore the obvious, and not give you an honest answer, to be “fair” as you characterize it.

You see, the Fairness Doctrine is not what drives the contents of portfolios.  What drives contents is purpose.  If you want to appeal to an African-American clientele, you "should" put a heavy preponderance of African American models in your port.  If you want to appeal to Caucasians, you "should" put a substantial number of Caucasians in your port.  That's the only "should" that counts.  It has nothing at all to do with "being fair" or with what anyone else does.  Other people have different objectives from yours.  Their ports should reflect their own objectives, not yours.

You say you want to attract Caucasian models.  That says YOUR port should to contain more of them to be effective.

Don't believe me?  Take another look at my port, and the comments it has received.  All but one of the comments on the picture of the African American model are from African Americans.  That's not random chance.  People respond to pictures that speak to them, that they feel relate to them.  Ports need to - no, should - recognize that fact.  That's the only "should" that counts.

With one obvious exception, the comments you quote as received were on point, and were helpful.  For you to make a racial issue out of the fact that other people, for their own reasons, and for their own objectives, happen to have a different racial distribution than you do, or that was recommended to you, is what people in this thread were objecting to.

For good reason.

TXPhotog wrote:

Hair by Kara wrote:
with all of this said, you still have not answered the question. my port aside, shoud it not go both way? thats all im asking. Should the ethnic diversity in the ports of mm'ers go for all ports and not just some? The situation with my port was only used as an example to show how I have seen it asked for in in marjority african american ports and not asked for in marjority cauasian ports. the best explanation i got is because a marjortiy cauasion port is viewed as just a normal port as the industry is majority cauasion. This is not about what you think i should or shouldnt have in my port. i already had a thread about that. this is not what i need to fix or add or what market i am trying to go to. this qestion is about all ports in all mm mine and yes yours inculded also. If i needed to know anymore about what my port was missing or needed or lacked, id go and ask it that thread. if you want to try and start arguments and avoid the question you can do that elsewere. I am just asking a simple question, hoping to get a simple answer. There is a link to the thread with my port critique a few posts up, if you have something more to say, please by all means, post there and ill be happy to reply:) thank so much for your input and have a nice day!!

And there it is again.  The race card.

What does "should" mean?  Why "should" a port contain anything, or not contain anything?  Where does "should" come from?

You seem to have the notion that it comes from some sort of Fairness Doctrine, that ports "should" have some sort of ethnic mix.  And since you raise the issue of my port and what it "should" have in it, I suppose either it is racially correct or it is not, and I "should" be concerned about that?  (For the record, my MM port contains one African American, two Hispanics and and Asian.  I suppose it "should" be different, but it suits my needs just fine.  And that is the point.)

I did give you an answer, you just did not pay attention to it.  Here it is again:


You see, the Fairness Doctrine is not what drives the contents of portfolios.  What drives contents is purpose.  If you want to appeal to an African-American clientele, you "should" put a heavy preponderance of African American models in your port.  If you want to appeal to Caucasians, you "should" put a substantial number of Caucasians in your port.  That's the only "should" that counts.  It has nothing at all to do with "being fair" or with what anyone else does.  Other people have different objectives from yours.  Their ports should reflect their own objectives, not yours.

You say you want to attract Caucasian models.  That says YOUR port should to contain more of them to be effective.

Don't believe me?  Take another look at my port, and the comments it has received.  All but one of the comments on the picture of the African American model are from African Americans.  That's not random chance.  People respond to pictures that speak to them, that they feel relate to them.  Ports need to - no, should - recognize that fact.  That's the only "should" that counts.

With one obvious exception, the comments you quote as received were on point, and were helpful.  For you to make a racial issue out of the fact that other people, for their own reasons, and for their own objectives, happen to have a different racial distribution than you do, or that was recommended to you, is what people in this thread were objecting to.

For good reason.

Should means, not that any should( or must be required to), but is in question form,  as in should any/b]( meaing should all ports have to have diversity to be a good port?)? And if any one port [b] should , then why not all? You say No. No one should be forced and it shouldnt be an issue or requirement as to what races or ethincities are in someones port in order to be good port. I can whole heartedly agree with that. I my case, i do want to expand to caucasian models. Now with us agreeing that no one should have to have ethinc diversity in there ports if they dont want to, why was my port being criticised for not haveing any white models when I never even made it clear in my intial post that i even wanted any in my port? It was made to seem that is was a requiremt, as something i must have. If that were the case, if it were something that I must have then why shouldnt it be a requiment for everyone? Since you say its not, as I agree, it shoudnt be unless YOU want it to be. Now that being said  were my critiquers wrong to say that i needed white models when I never said i wanted any in my orignal topic? Even when I did say it was my plan and intention too, "im workin on it curently!!", i guess they didnt read that as many new posters continued to tell me the same thing. Was it wrong of me to ask why i "needed" to have white models? I just had a photog ask why he "needed" black models? Your telling me now that no one "should" have to have anything. Thats the whole point! Thats the whole reasoning! Thats why i started this thread!!! I just wanted a simple answer, not to thow things all out of perportion or maybe im just not to good at explaning myself! Whatever the case it, I hope you get me now, and maybe you can be one of the first people to "critique" my new and inproved port when its all nice and updated.

TXPhotog wrote:
For good reason.

I just wanted to let you know that at least one person read and understood what you wrote, even if your targeted audience seems to have missed the point.

Hair by Kara wrote:

Should means, not that any should( or must be required to), but is in question form,  as in should any/b]( meaing should all ports have to have diversity to be a good port?)? And if any one port [b] should , then why not all? You say No. No one should be forced and it shouldnt be an issue or requirement as to what races or ethincities are in someones port in order to be good port. I can whole heartedly agree with that. I my case, i do want to expand to caucasian models. Now with us agreeing that no one should have to have ethinc diversity in there ports if they dont want to, why was my port being criticised for not haveing any white models when I never even made it clear in my intial post that i even wanted any in my port? It was made to seem that is was a requiremt, as something i must have. If that were the case, if it were something that I must have then why shouldnt it be a requiment for everyone? Since you say its not, as I agree, it shoudnt be unless YOU want it to be. Now that being said  were my critiquers wrong to say that i needed white models when I never said i wanted any in my orignal topic? Even when I did say it was my plan and intention too, "im workin on it curently!!", i guess they didnt read that as many new posters continued to tell me the same thing. Was it wrong of me to ask why i "needed" to have white models? I just had a photog ask why he "needed" black models? Your telling me now that no one "should" have to have anything. Thats the whole point! Thats the whole reasoning! Thats why i started this thread!!! I just wanted a simple answer, not to thow things all out of perportion or maybe im just not to good at explaning myself! Whatever the case it, I hope you get me now, and maybe you can be one of the first people to "critique" my new and inproved port when its all nice and updated.

If you had asked, in your orignal post, if black models would work with you, rather than postying a general would anyone work with you, you would have a point. But you asked the entire MM world if they would work with yoou based on your portfolio. And members of that entire MM world, many of them white, said no because they had no indications from your port that you could handle lighter hair.

Nothing said you SHOULD have diversity. But if you are going to ask a diverse group to comment on your portfolio, expect them to note a lack of diversity in your work.

Hair by Kara wrote:
....... Is it just me or is there a double standerd here?

It's you. 

.....and you've work to do - https://www.modelmayhem.com/posts.php?t … 03&page=3.  Sixth post from the bottom. Remember?

You're wasting time.

bt

Bruce Talbot wrote:

It's you. 

.....and you've work to do - https://www.modelmayhem.com/posts.php?t … 03&page=3.  Sixth post from the bottom. Remember?

You're wasting time.

bt

Agreed...