FlirtynFun Photography wrote:
you'll see that Internet models sometimes tend to be flakey. It's not a good idea to "out her" here as that's not allowed. MM isn't any different than OMP on model reliability. Your best bet is to hire models you have a good working relationship with or use an agency, or use models other photographers know have good reputations. This has been discussed so many times on here that there SHOULD be a forum specifically dedicated to it.

As he said.

I took a look at her port.  The tip off should have been, "see myspace for more pictures."

I like the idea of a Flake forum though.  That would take care of about 25% of all posts.  Everyone could use it as a place to blow off steam.

W B Fontenot wrote:
How common is this...

On the Internet, very.

...how can I keep this from happening.

Use agency models.

There are to be no out threads, nor will there be any rating system, as no one has yet conceived of a way to ensure that either will be honest and fair.

W B Fontenot wrote:
But I don't understand how "outing her" is such a bad thing.

It is a bad thing because you expect us to take your side of the situation, all without hearing her side of the story.  For example, how do we know that you weren't the one who didn't show, or that you told her the wrong time/place, or that there was an agreement to work together in the first place? 

Further, what's to stop her from "outing" you, claiming that you touched her inappropriately, or that you refused to pay her, or that you were the one who didn't show?  We have no reason to believe either of you.

So, when you "out" the model, we don't know the whole story and are not in a position to believe you or her.  But we do know that you've gone to the trouble to attempt to diminish or ruin her reputation, presumedly because you had a bad experience with her.  That doesn't sound "professional" to me -- that sounds vindictive & mean. 

So, as far as I'm concerned, your attempt to "out" her would do you more damage than her.

W B Fontenot wrote:
I had a shoot set up for today. The model told me that she was in. We were in contact all of last week. I asked her via email if she was a for sure for Monday-she said yes. She stopped contact with me as of Saturday- after my stylist had already pulled clothing for her. I also got a MUA for the shoot-which I ended up having to pay a cancellation fee for. On top of all of this I rented some equipment for the shoot (on Friday). I am a professional (this is how I make my money) and I don’t often run across this. This is my first experience with a model from MM. I had this happen twice on OMP which is why I no longer have an account there. How common is this, and how can I keep this from happening. I am out money and time. I was unable to get another model for the day, and I turned down two other jobs (both were offered to me last Thursday, both paid).
Please let me know what is up-
B

Don't shoot without a deposit.  If the model whines and bellyaches about a deposit, she's probably the type that will flake.  If she's reliable, dependable, and professional, she'll understand that deposits are just part of the cost of doing business and she'll pay it.  After all, fair is fair.  Why should the photographer be the only one with anything to lose if the model decides to go shopping with her mall-rat friends rather than to show up for the shoot?

W B Fontenot wrote:
No call-no show- What can I do?

1.  Grin
2.  Bear it.
3.  Use models from an agency.

Ed Goodwin Photography wrote:
Don't shoot without a deposit.  If the model whines and bellyaches about a deposit, she's probably the type that will flake.  If she's reliable, dependable, and professional, she'll understand that deposits are just part of the cost of doing business and she'll pay it.  After all, fair is fair.  Why should the photographer be the only one with anything to lose if the model decides to go shopping with her mall-rat friends rather than to show up for the shoot?

I personally think deposits like that are disrespectful, inappropriate, and not conducive to a productive session.

Question:  Okay, she gives you a deposit, which you refund to her when she shows up on time.  How would you feel about then giving her a deposit, which she will refund to you when you deliver the images you promised her?

Looknsee Photography wrote:
I personally think deposits like that are disrespectful, inappropriate, and not conducive to a productive session.

Bingo!

If I don't trust someone, I just don't shoot with them. And vice-versa. There's no need to put all these barriers in place that basically say "I don't TRUST YOU and I UNDERSTAND why you WON'T TRUST ME."

HungryEye wrote:
I book the majority of my models from OMP and MM, and I rarely have a problem, however I also arrange a meeting before any shoot. This is usually the litmus test. If they don't show for the meeting, I am one degree wiser...

One thing you do not mention is whether or not you were paying her. I have never had a model fail to show for a session where she was getting paid.

I would also never invest serious money in a first shoot with a TFP netmodel. I save my serious shoots for those with whom I have history and confidence.

Sorry to hear you got burned.

I've had them fail to show when money was involved.

Ed Goodwin Photography wrote:

Don't shoot without a deposit.  If the model whines and bellyaches about a deposit, she's probably the type that will flake.  If she's reliable, dependable, and professional, she'll understand that deposits are just part of the cost of doing business and she'll pay it.  After all, fair is fair.  Why should the photographer be the only one with anything to lose if the model decides to go shopping with her mall-rat friends rather than to show up for the shoot?

We've gotten into this in other threads recently. 

If a model is reliable, dependable, and professional, you should be able to learn that by checking her references -- in which case, you don't NEED a deposit.  Asking for a deposit from someone who has a good track record is insulting.

If you're working with someone who does NOT have references, or whose record is spotty, then by all means, ask for a deposit -- but don't treat those of us who work hard to maintain our reputation as if we are likely to flake out on you!

wow that makes so much sense
best argument so far

Brian Diaz wrote:
There are to be no out threads, nor will there be any rating system, as no one has yet conceived of a way to ensure that either will be honest and fair.

Honestly, eBays feedback system is about as honest and fair as you're likely to get. And it works relatively well.

W B Fontenot wrote:
I had a shoot set up for today. The model told me that she was in. We were in contact all of last week. I asked her via email if she was a for sure for Monday-she said yes. She stopped contact with me as of Saturday- after my stylist had already pulled clothing for her. I also got a MUA for the shoot-which I ended up having to pay a cancellation fee for. On top of all of this I rented some equipment for the shoot (on Friday). I am a professional (this is how I make my money) and I don’t often run across this. This is my first experience with a model from MM. I had this happen twice on OMP which is why I no longer have an account there. How common is this, and how can I keep this from happening. I am out money and time. I was unable to get another model for the day, and I turned down two other jobs (both were offered to me last Thursday, both paid).
Please let me know what is up-
B

Welcome to the world of free networking for models, photographers , MUA's etc....
Others have posted good suggestions, keep at it and your "flake-o-sensor" will kick in at some point.

For me the big tip off is by the 2nd or 3rd email if we are not making contact off MM - Forget it, just move on. Past that I require a face to face prior to a shoot.

Best of luck,

FA

SayCheeZ! wrote:

1.  Grin
2.  Bear it.
3.  Use models from an agency.

Here, here!

Brian Diaz wrote:
There are to be no out threads, nor will there be any rating system, as no one has yet conceived of a way to ensure that either will be honest and fair.

Aaron S wrote:
Honestly, eBays feedback system is about as honest and fair as you're likely to get. And it works relatively well.

That's pretty brave for a guy who touches his models inappropriately & stiffs them on their payments.    >>  We are not being given both sides of the story.
   >>>  We have no reason to believe you.
   >>>  But we can see that you are mean & vindictive.
   >>>  Thus, "outing" an alleged flake does you more damage than the model.[/b]

Again, look at it from the other side -- suppose you are checking out a model's portfolio, and on that portfolio, she "outs" a photographer she didn't enjoy working with -- would that make you more or less inclined to work with that model?

Aaron S wrote:

Honestly, eBays feedback system is about as honest and fair as you're likely to get. And it works relatively well.

Ebay's feedback system works for Ebay. This isn't ebay. There isn't a way for both parties to leave feedback, particularly when one of them "disappears." Its always going to be he said she said between models and photographers.

Besides how many people do you think attempt to cheat the ebay system by buying something and then claiming they never got it? Ebay can't tell for sure, and thus we're back to he said she said.

This is why I ALWAYS leave a tag for photographers/models that I have worked with recently. That way its written right there that I have worked with you, and others are free to contact me through MM to inquire about my experience. You can also click on "view all tags" as well, and go find comments like that. Checking references for all the linked people in the images is smart.

There will always be no shows. There will always be cancellations. Its a fact of life.

Ed Goodwin Photography wrote:
Don't shoot without a deposit.  If the model whines and bellyaches about a deposit, she's probably the type that will flake.

here we go again.....

I won't pay a deposit. Thus, I must be a flake.

There's logic.

John Allen wrote:
N E V E R !! book an internet model for a paid shoot or a shoot where you are obligated to pay for a makeup artist, stylist or studio space unless you have had a test/tfp session previously and found her/him to be reliable.  Otherwise you only have yourself to blame.

GAH. NEVER say NEVER... don't always say always, usually say usually.
Absolutes DON'T work.  End of story.

Each situation needs to be handled on an individual basis, individually researching references, work ethic, appearence of their port, how they handle correspondence, how quickly messages are returned, and a host of other criteria. Each model is an individual person with an individual situatoin. Lumping everyone together doesn't work.

I am NOT going to work with a photographer for TFP (unless there are SUPER SPECIAL circumstances) the first time. Unless I am *guaranteed* of the end results, there is no way I am going to risk my time to do something that may or may not have a return for me that is useable.  Money, however, will always be a productive return for me. There is no worrying about getting images in a timely manner, and no follow up. Its much easier for me to simply be paid and go from there. After we have established a working relationship, if I value the images that are produced and feel like they could benefit my port, then I'll make an offer. Other than that, I'll stick to the green. Pretty pictures don't pay my rent.

FlirtynFun Photography wrote:
you'll see that Internet models sometimes tend to be flakey. It's not a good idea to "out her" here as that's not allowed. MM isn't any different than OMP on model reliability. Your best bet is to hire models you have a good working relationship with or use an agency, or use models other photographers know have good reputations. This has been discussed so many times on here that there SHOULD be a forum specifically dedicated to it.

That is a big reason why I don't use models on MM or on OMP for commercial shoots or work with them on projects that require any outlay of cash (for other personnel like MUAs for instance) until and unless I have personally worked with them on a TFP shoot first. 

If they show up on time, and don't blow me off, and work with me to create shots I can actually use for my portfolio and that would be of interest to clients for my work, then I have no problem recommending them for paying work later on or hire other people to work with us on projects where there needs to be money spent to up the production value of the work.

STANLEY LAFLEUR wrote:
well well i will say dont be putt off as they say 3 is a crowd  so u are better off with a a crowd whenever u doing a shoot try to have more than 1 model coming.... at least  if 1 does not turn up u still have one specially if you have a team behind you here on mm you have a lot of good models here only a hand full want free fotos.... i had a shoot set up last months i had 4 models lined up 2 were up to standard 1 came with her hair not done she had weaves all over the place and 1 phoned me 2 hours b4 the shoot saying she could not come with no real explanation.............. a no show will happen to you maybe 1 more time and that will be it..........

Eye kant unerstnd ur dyealect.  Es itt bsd n nglsh?