Carlos Arturo Velarde wrote:
You can "out her" on your port page.

Get a written contract (like a work order, not a release) signed before the shoot, stating how much it will cost her to flake out.

"'Out' her on your port page" = stupid.  We don't see both sides of the story, so we don't know what's happened.  So, those of us willing to give strangers the benefit of doubt will suspend judgment, regardless of what you say.  However, we will have evidence of you trying to ruin a model's reputation in a manner which provides her no recourse.  So, we know what kind of person you are.

Suppose a model posts on her page that you showed up late & drunk, that you touched her inappropriately, and that you refused to pay her the agreed-upon fee.  What could you do?

Suppose a model looks at your portfolio before decided whether she is willing to work with you -- what impression would your "outing" give her?  Your portfolio is your best chance to make a good first impression, and posting negative complaints can diminish your chances.

Writing a contract with a "flake" penalty is interesting, but flawed.  How do we know that it was the model, and not the photographer, who flaked?  Perhaps she was there & you were not?  Perhaps you gave her the wrong address?

When you write such a contract, are you also including penalties for those contingencies in which the photographer failed to perform his professional duties?  What are the penalties for the photographer not showing?  What are the penalties to be applied if the photographer fails to deliver the expected images in a timely manner?

Like I said, such strategies are inappropriate, often unequal, and not conducive to the creation of the best possible images.

HungryEye wrote:
I book the majority of my models from OMP and MM, and I rarely have a problem, however I also arrange a meeting before any shoot. This is usually the litmus test. If they don't show for the meeting, I am one degree wiser...

One thing you do not mention is whether or not you were paying her. I have never had a model fail to show for a session where she was getting paid.

I would also never invest serious money in a first shoot with a TFP netmodel. I save my serious shoots for those with whom I have history and confidence.

Sorry to hear you got burned.

I had an OMP and MM model contact me for an involved body paint shoot she had in mind as her "trade mark image." She questioned my ability, experience and insisted she bring her brother. They came out one night (he was very tall, large and silent) to "look me over." We negotiated to her request for a TFCD for a gold body paint job with what she described as a sheer lingerie over it. She made a date for the shoot and we emailed and confirmed almost every day to the shoot. I put together a "paint boot" in the center of my studio and got everything ready for the shoot. She didn't call or show up. I emailed and called her answering machines my concern. Later she appologized and gave a lame but acceptable excuse. She pleaded for another date. We set the date and she called and cancelled an hour prior to the shoot. She is a principal in a major annual fashion event in Chicago and one would think she would be more professional in how she handles her interactions with other area professionals. Flake and inconsideration seems to be a virus that runs rampant with internet models.

We need to set up an "outing site" so that we may find out and protect ourselves. I gave away a wedding one of the times we were to shoot. She offered to pay me $100 no show fee but, of course, inspite of agreeing in writing, lying that it was in the mail to get me to agree to another shoot, it never came.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
"'Out' her on your port page" = stupid.  We don't see both sides of the story, so we don't know what's happened.  So, those of us willing to give strangers the benefit of doubt will suspend judgment, regardless of what you say.  However, we will have evidence of you trying to ruin a model's reputation in a manner which provides her no recourse.  So, we know what kind of person you are.

Suppose a model posts on her page that you showed up late & drunk, that you touched her inappropriately, and that you refused to pay her the agreed-upon fee.  What could you do?

Suppose a model looks at your portfolio before decided whether she is willing to work with you -- what impression would your "outing" give her?  Your portfolio is your best chance to make a good first impression, and posting negative complaints can diminish your chances.

Writing a contract with a "flake" penalty is interesting, but flawed.  How do we know that it was the model, and not the photographer, who flaked?  Perhaps she was there & you were not?  Perhaps you gave her the wrong address?

When you write such a contract, are you also including penalties for those contingencies in which the photographer failed to perform his professional duties?  What are the penalties for the photographer not showing?  What are the penalties to be applied if the photographer fails to deliver the expected images in a timely manner?

Like I said, such strategies are inappropriate, often unequal, and not conducive to the creation of the best possible images.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
I personally think deposits like that are disrespectful, inappropriate, and not conducive to a productive session.

Would you ask for a deposit from a client to book a session? Maybe not if she/he is your brother's best friend. Maybe you would if it were some guy from the internet who said "Hey, I saw your portfolio, your pictures look great!  Can you set aside a whole Saturday to shoot me?"

Deposits hold people to their actions because there is a tangible loss otherwise.  This wouldn't be necessary except that the vast, faceless internet has allowed some people to be entirely unaccountable for their actions.

If the model finds the deposit disrespectful, inappropriate and not conducive to the session, then she should decline the project.  Similarly, if a photographer finds the presence of an escort disrespectful (I'm a potential rapist?), inappropriate (So you need to bring your friends to work to protect you?) and not conducive (By hovering over my shoulder), they decline the project.

Please do not take offense to this but...

If a model flakes on you often, it means they are not as interested in shooting with you as you are with them.  Their value as a model is higher to photographers available to them than your value as a photographer is to models available to you.  Be less choosy about the attractiveness or youth of the model and you'll get more people sincerely interested in working with you.  Or, work on your craft until you produce some kick ass images that people will PAY you for, including the models you would do TFP with.

Cynthia T wrote:
Would you ask for a deposit from a client to book a session? Maybe not if she/he is your brother's best friend. Maybe you would if it were some guy from the internet who said "Hey, I saw your portfolio, your pictures look great!  Can you set aside a whole Saturday to shoot me?"

Deposits hold people to their actions because there is a tangible loss otherwise.  This wouldn't be necessary except that the vast, faceless internet has allowed some people to be entirely unaccountable for their actions.

If the model finds the deposit disrespectful, inappropriate and not conducive to the session, then she should decline the project.  Similarly, if a photographer finds the presence of an escort disrespectful (I'm a potential rapist?), inappropriate (So you need to bring your friends to work to protect you?) and not conducive (By hovering over my shoulder), they decline the project.

Please do not take offense to this but...

If a model flakes on you often, it means they are not as interested in shooting with you as you are with them.  Their value as a model is higher to photographers available to them than your value as a photographer is to models available to you.  Be less choosy about the attractiveness or youth of the model and you'll get more people sincerely interested in working with you.  Or, work on your craft until you produce some kick ass images that people will PAY you for, including the models you would do TFP with.

Interesting points -- let's take them one at a time:

"Would you ask for a deposit from a client to book a session?"  Apples & oranges.  Is the model hiring the photographer?  Rarely -- in most cases, we are talking about TFP or about the photographer hiring the model.  That's radically different from a client hiring the photographer.  The "T" in "TFP" stands for "Trade", which to me implies a meeting of equals -- why is a deposit more appropriate for one party than the other?

"Can you set aside a whole Saturday to shoot me?"  Both parties are devoting similar time & expenses to the shared project.  Why is the photographer's time more valuable than the models?

"Deposits hold people to their actions because there is a tangible loss otherwise."  True.  So, then it would be appropriate for the model to leave the session with a deposit from the photographer, to be returned when the photographer delivers the images promised?  What is the photographer's tangible loss in the contingency that he fails to deliver on his promises?

"If a model flakes on you often, ..."  Stop right there.  I suggest that if a model flakes on you often, then you only have yourself to blame.  Nothing speaks louder than track record, and if a model flakes on you once, she should be suspect, and if she flakes on you twice, you should get the hint.  Why are you giving her enough chances to flake on you "often"?

"Their value as a model is higher to photographers available to them than your value as a photographer is to models available to you."  I don't understand this comment.


Bottom line:  you are right when you imply that each model-photographer-session is a separate negotiation, and any terms are appropriate if they are acceptable to all parties.  I'm just saying that I would find it difficult to establish the appropriate "chemistry" in a sitting if I start it by informing the model that I don't trust her.  I say, check references first, ask around about her, and decide first to work with her.  Then, do what you can to ensure that she is properly excited & incented to show up.  Finally, work with models with known track records on those projects that are critical to you.

W B Fontenot wrote:
I cut her info out of my first post, I don't want to ruffle any feathers. But I don't understand how "outing her" is such a bad thing. There needs to be someway to find out if a model (or a photographer) is credible and reliable. On eBay there is a rating system for users. This helps you so you don’t get ripped off when you depend on the person to send you what you have purchased. Well I am out more then I ever spent on one item at eBay.

I will list the no shows on my port if it makes them mad oh well so be it.

Looknsee Photography wrote:

I personally think deposits like that are disrespectful, inappropriate, and not conducive to a productive session.

Question:  Okay, she gives you a deposit, which you refund to her when she shows up on time.  How would you feel about then giving her a deposit, which she will refund to you when you deliver the images you promised her?

Disrespectful eh... then get used to no shows.

Look at it this way... if you think your time and skill isn't worth anything then neither will the "model" (and I use that title loosely). The deposit ensures she'll show up... maybe she'll think twice about getting trashed the night before the shoot or decide to show up as opposed to going to the beach if she has something to loose, because with nothing on the table, in her eyes, you're worth nothing.

Now this is only my opinion, I don't do TFP's... but... I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night

Looknsee Photography wrote:
I personally think deposits like that are disrespectful, inappropriate, and not conducive to a productive session.

Question:  Okay, she gives you a deposit, which you refund to her when she shows up on time.  How would you feel about then giving her a deposit, which she will refund to you when you deliver the images you promised her?

giovanni gruttola wrote:
Disrespectful eh... then get used to no shows.

Look at it this way... if you think your time and skill isn't worth anything then neither will the "model" (and I use that title loosely). The deposit ensures she'll show up... maybe she'll think twice about getting trashed the night before the shoot or decide to show up as opposed to going to the beach if she has something to loose, because with nothing on the table, in her eyes, you're worth nothing.

Now this is only my opinion, I don't do TFP's... but... I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night

Sorry, I've had hundreds of sittings and have never had a no-show.  Check out my suggestions on the first page of this thread to see why I'm successful.

"if you think your time and skill isn't worth anything then neither will the model"
I never suggested that the photographer's time & skill aren't worth anything.  I'm only suggesting that the model's time is worth something to the model, as the photographer's time is worth something to the photographer.  To the extent that I am successful, I owe a large part of my success to
   ... my ability to treat models with respect,
   ... my ability to incent the models to show up,
   ... my ability to make the models happy.
In short, I'm empathetic.

You never address the concept:  if it's okay for a photographer to obtain a deposit to ensure that the model shows up, is it therefore equally appropriate for the model to obtain a deposit from the photographer to ensure that the photographer delivers the images as they've agreed?

Looknsee Photography wrote:
Things to do to improve your odds:

1)  Your first sitting with a new-to-you model should have the objective of "getting acquainted".  Don't invest tons of time & money in setting these sittings up.  Use the models you know for the important projects.

2)  Check references.  I don't know why more models & photographers don't check references more often.  Write to all the photographers represented in her portfolio.  While it is inappropriate to "out" a model publically, it's quite okay to respond honestly to private requests for references.

3)  I'm a big advocate of building a little local community of artists & models.  When a new model shows up on the local scene, I often ask my local photographer buddies what they know about her.

4)  Make sure the model is enthusiastic about the sitting.  It's not enough to expect her to be excited about the prospect of working with you -- provide more incentive than that.  A little amount of pay would be nice.  Tell her about the concepts you are going to try, and talk up the ones that interest her.  Being "business-like" often tends to translate into being low-key & boring -- be enthusiastic.

5)  Make it easy on the model -- remember, the first sitting together is to get acquainted, so pick a time that is convenient for both, choose a location that's easy to find, etc.

When people ask me for references none of the many models I worked with including several I worked with several times every answer anyone back, which would make my references look fake.  It seems that models can never answer back for anything, and in one forum someone said they are very busy, well who isn't these days, so there is no excuse, people should be polite enough to answer emails, otherwise get off the site, because being on here means you're interested in working, you will get offers and if you don't want to work with someone let them know.

W B Fontenot wrote:
I had a shoot set up for today. The model told me that she was in. We were in contact all of last week. I asked her via email if she was a for sure for Monday-she said yes. She stopped contact with me as of Saturday- after my stylist had already pulled clothing for her. I also got a MUA for the shoot-which I ended up having to pay a cancellation fee for. On top of all of this I rented some equipment for the shoot (on Friday). I am a professional (this is how I make my money) and I don’t often run across this. This is my first experience with a model from MM. I had this happen twice on OMP which is why I no longer have an account there. How common is this, and how can I keep this from happening. I am out money and time. I was unable to get another model for the day, and I turned down two other jobs (both were offered to me last Thursday, both paid).
Please let me know what is up-
B

Ya should have called me I never stand up a photo shoot. Love the camera too much to do so. Seriously though that was dead wrong for a model to do something like that. Like I had wanted to participate in this photo shoot for an online advertisement that this photographer was doing a shoot for. So i took his AIM down and everything, and that's how we contacted each other. Then the day before the shoot when I was suppose to meet up with him he never replied when I asked him where in NY and what time. Even after the day  of the shoot. That pissed me off so bad, but I understand where a photographer comes from when they say that they've been stood up like that. That experience was my first time as well and I understand how upset you must have been.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
Things to do to improve your odds:

(snip)

2)  Check references.  I don't know why more models & photographers don't check references more often.  Write to all the photographers represented in her portfolio.  While it is inappropriate to "out" a model publically, it's quite okay to respond honestly to private requests for references.

3)  I'm a big advocate of building a little local community of artists & models.  When a new model shows up on the local scene, I often ask my local photographer buddies what they know about her.

(snip)

CL Photography wrote:
When people ask me for references none of the many models I worked with including several I worked with several times every answer anyone back, which would make my references look fake.  It seems that models can never answer back for anything, and in one forum someone said they are very busy, well who isn't these days, so there is no excuse, people should be polite enough to answer emails, otherwise get off the site, because being on here means you're interested in working, you will get offers and if you don't want to work with someone let them know.

The most recent posting on my web site is a collection of images made with a new-to-me traveling model.  She contacted me via MM, and during our negotiations, she asked for references.  I simply said that she could contact any of the models in my portfolio (I am scrupulous about giving models credit).  She actually contacted several, and all of them replied.  Not only did all of the model replied, but all gave me terrific references, and some took the time to write long (and apparently glowing) reviews.  (Thanks to my models!!!)

Why?  Well, for any sitting, my top priority is to treat the model well & with respect.  I can't have fun if I feel that the model isn't enjoying herself, and I certainly feel that I can't produce worthwhile images if both the model & myself aren't comfortable & having a good time.  It is simply my goal for the models to feel appreciated & excited by the time the sitting is completed.

My point:  Flaking models are sometimes (often?) the fault of the photographer!  Sure, sometimes you get pretty girls who are somewhat spoiled & somewhat inexperienced about how business transactions should work, but sometimes the photographer doesn't do his job in controlling the session, in incenting the model, and in respecting the model. 

I've never had a flake, in part because I am selective in choosing models, but in large part because I (try to) treat models very well.

Lightwave Photography wrote:
The NO SHOW rate for internet models is over 50% and these are ones who confirm they are going to be at an appt.

I only pay models/use on client assignments Ive met first doing a test session to make sure they're reliable, have a marketable look and some basic modeling skills.

A photographer should never pay a model upfront travel/modeling fees he has never photographed before especially off the internet.

I do free test photosessions with models for projects Im doing but if they have no published track record, print etc I may ask for a deposit and always waive it for "name" models.

Also with new models doing test photosessions I also try to double or even triple book them assuming 50% NO SHOW RATE this way at least one almost always shows up.

All makes sense, especially from the professional photographer's point of view.  But at its heart, such strategies give the model the impression that she isn't trusted & that no other models is to be trusted. 

I'm just glad that I have found a solution that doesn't start our model-photographer relationship with acts of distrust.